GM Rep ends up looking like a real fool

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

@FarmerFran, see my post above yours.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Just a few things to consider...

• Toyota has a reason to bash on EVs. They are all in on Fuel Cells. Makes sense for Japan (big island...only needs a few hydrogen reforming / refueling stations)
  
  
• Until Fuel Cells gain a foothold in the market, Toyota would love for Hybrids to be the solution, seeing as how they are far and away the biggest and lowest cost producers of hybrids.
• Toyota typically hates anything with a plug.

I have seen argument thrown around recently, and it lacks credibility to be frank. They aren't the only automakers investing in fuel cell tech and I doubt they are going all in on it. Fuel cell cars a real thing and are a viable option in the future, so there is nothing wrong with that.

They have their reasons for why they believe pure EV shouldn't be rushed into the market in the fashion we are seeing. And people fail to take into account less developed areas of the world as well. Anyhow, Toyota is introducing some pure EV's this year and they are big on solid state batteries. They just plan to offer more options than just pure EV, it makes sense as the world cannot make that transition to pure EV in just 5-10 years.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

I do not have a dog in the fight but I find it funny, he is claiming it will never work but they have no EV to base it off.

I read it like this...

Uhhhh, we do not have an EV so it will never work.

That's not true, they are introducing pure EV's in Europe and the US this year. They are also introducing an EV with a solid state battery pack in 2022 or 2023.

[trm2]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

How many miles are you driving? If you are driving fewer miles it's possible you don't have much more than 1-2% degradation.

As I said to the other guy, I believe in global warming and climate change. I am for pure EV down the road. I just believe the accelerated pure EV push is unrealistic and harmful to the environment and consumers. We should have an electrification push, hybridizing more vehicles and offering pure EV trims as well. For the next 15-20 years. Before we fully transition to pure EV. However, because of regulations, automakers are phasing out ICE completely by 2025. It will happen earlier than people think it is a wrong approach which will cost them financially and cost us ordinary people.

No, I have ZERO degradation. I can go exactly the same distance in my Model S and Volt as when new. Exactly as far 3 and 5 years later respectively.

Chevrolet had the perfect hybrid - the gen 2 Volt gets 45 miles electric in the coldest weather and well over 70 in great weather and then over 40 MPG on gas. They refused to put the Voltec drivetrain in a compelling package (IIRC it was because of a change in the carbon credits).

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by trm2

No, I have ZERO degradation. I can go exactly the same distance in my Model S and Volt as when new. Exactly as far 3 and 5 years later respectively.

Chevrolet had the perfect hybrid - the gen 2 Volt gets 45 miles electric in the coldest weather and well over 70 in great weather and then over 40 MPG on gas. They refused to put the Voltec drivetrain in a compelling package (IIRC it was because of a change in the carbon credits).

You did not answer the question, how many miles have you driven on the Tesla? If you've logged in over 100,000 miles and claim zero battery degradation, that's scientifically impossibly. Every 15,000 miles you will lose 1% battery capacity based on the data available by Tesla, itself. Over time the tech will get better and it will no longer be a big issue.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

That's not true, they are introducing pure EV's in Europe and the US this year. They are also introducing an EV with a solid state battery pack in 2022 or 2023.

They are introducing EVs in 2022, but not with solid state batteries. They had a press event in late 2020 stating that they will be introducing solid state batteries but did not give a timeline. They also did not mention that on a kWh to kWh basis, solid state is a lot more expensive than liquid / gel cathode batteries. This is to be expected, since it’s basically comparing 1st gen SS technology to what will be 3rd or 4th gen liquid / gel cathode technology. Another automaker whom I can’t remember off hand also discussed introducing SS batteries, but they were a bit more transparent about timing. Their vehicle will launch in 2022 with conventional lithium ion and the solid state battery packs will retrofit when they are available some time later, likely a year or two.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by trm2

No, I have ZERO degradation. I can go exactly the same distance in my Model S and Volt as when new. Exactly as far 3 and 5 years later respectively.

Chevrolet had the perfect hybrid - the gen 2 Volt gets 45 miles electric in the coldest weather and well over 70 in great weather and then over 40 MPG on gas. They refused to put the Voltec drivetrain in a compelling package (IIRC it was because of a change in the carbon credits).

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

You did not answer the question, how many miles have you driven on the Tesla? If you've logged in over 100,000 miles and claim zero battery degradation, that's scientifically impossibly. Every 15,000 miles you will lose 1% battery capacity based on the data available by Tesla, itself. Over time the tech will get better and it will no longer be a big issue.

That could vary based on how the battery is partitioned. BEV and PHEV batteries are designed with a significant portion of their capacity locked. This is done to prevent deep cycling. So even when your EV says it has zero range, the battery isn’t totally depleted. By doing this, the lifecycle of the battery is extended, and the typical degradation of range of the part that IS active is prolonged. Our 2017 Volt has an 18.1 kWh battery, with about 45,000 miles on it and we still see the same range as we did on day one. Actually, better once the vehicle “learned” our driving patterns. On a normal day, we start with 53 miles available range. On a brutally cold day that might drop to 38 - 41 miles.

Different companies partition the batteries in different ways, so some have more “buffer” than others.

[trm2]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

You did not answer the question, how many miles have you driven on the Tesla? If you've logged in over 100,000 miles and claim zero battery degradation, that's scientifically impossibly. Every 15,000 miles you will lose 1% battery capacity based on the data available by Tesla, itself. Over time the tech will get better and it will no longer be a big issue.

My apologies, I don’t drive much, just under 20,000. But still, ZERO, not 1%, zero degradation. My wife’s Volt about 36,000 and ZERO as well.

Most of the reports saying they have this degradation are from people looking at the dash where the car says you can go X more miles and now it shows X - Y miles. But they never drive to see how many miles they can actually get. Mine both still show the full amount and more importantly, drive the same distance.

If you own or live in a house, an EV is absolutely a more convenient vehicle. If you live in an apartment, well, it can still be done, but I would argue it is less convenient.

For degradation, is my Corvette degraded too? When new it got 16 miles to the gallon, now it is closer to 10. I can no longer go as far on one tank.


Edit: I’ve only driven my Model S 2,700 miles over the last year because of COVID and working from home.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I don't think people will ever be able to convince each other.

It's whatever. Just drive what works for you.

Personally I will hold onto an ICE performance car until it's no longer feasible. Then I'd probably set up some VR thing to enjoy it. Electric motor whine is just sad and annoying to me.

That's exactly it in a nutshell. That's exactly why companies and the gov should NOT be mandating electric cars or forcing them on us or eliminating gas engines all together at any point in the future, unless/until the market dictates.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by 90503

You got to be kidding, right? That executive order is just the start. It will likely be made even worse by the legislature.

Pretty weak argument to say it's just a proposal, or has no effect of law. Who is opposing it? GM? Some unknown representative in the Uber-left CA legislature??...A panel of circuit court judges?? lol...Answer: No one is opposing it, lest you run the risk of being doxxed or canceled by those for it. Ca and Newsome wanted to secede from the union, remember that? You think they are going to pass on an opportunity to act like heros saving the planet on the world stage?...lol

You ain't seen nothing yet. They are just getting started and no-one dare oppose their agenda.

The point was made that it isn't currently law. The point was correct.

That being said, I honestly think it is just a matter of time before it is. You have rabid, "pie in the sky" legislators on one side, auto manufacturers on the other ramming this through and in the middle an ignorant, "useful idiot" electorate that believe just about anything that comes over the TV/interwebz.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

That's exactly it in a nutshell. That's exactly why companies and the gov should NOT be mandating electric cars or forcing them on us or eliminating gas engines all together at any point in the future, unless/until the market dictates.

The market will never dictate EV's and that is the rub. EV's were available at the turn of the last century, along with steam cars, and they eventually lost out due to market forces.


You currently get rebates/incentives/tax credits now and they STILL can't sell them to anyone other than a hardcore environMENTAList even with "suggestive" government intervention into the markets.

They will have to force them on people, which they are trying to do now.

[FarmerFran]

The #1 thing that stops me from EV is adding charging capability at my house.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

They will have to force them on people, which they are trying to do now.

They don’t have to force crap on anyone.

That’s why people are pizzed off.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

That's exactly it in a nutshell. That's exactly why companies and the gov should NOT be mandating electric cars or forcing them on us or eliminating gas engines all together at any point in the future, unless/until the market dictates.

oh, you mean like goverment oil subsidies