Tuner will VOID warranty

[jrc1122]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

The 100,000-mile warrant is a limited powertrain warranty. The 36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warrant is limited as well.

If they didn't build it, they can't be held responsible for it. Diablosport, HPTuners, Hypertech, and every other tuner out there can only be held liable for their software and hardware, not GM's software and hardware and certainly not your entire powertrain.

Im simply correcting false information

Superchips Cortex Tuner bought new- offers 2 year limited powertrain warranty.

The added part- was for anyone wanting to argue the term limited. I am simply stating a warranty is offered by aftermarket tuners (some of them anyway)

[BWood]

To me, the fact of the matter is that GM doesn't want anyone messin' with the PCM. We all know that. So, to beat up on Mike@Diablosport just doesn't make much sense to me. He's offering a service/software to make those of us who choose to go that route happy campers. Quite frankly, I don't really care one way or another what Mike claims can be detected or not. If you reflash, YOU are in comlplete violation of what you agreed to in regards to the warranty when you signed on the dotted line. Regardless whether you can "get away with it" or not! Would we be having the same conversation if we were talking about running 12 lbs. of boost along side a 200 shot of nitrous with stock internals? I think not. Doing any upgrade to a car that will clearly void the warranty is done at the wehicle owner's risk. Pay to play, people...Pay to play!

[GaryTucker]

Originally Posted by BWood

To me, the fact of the matter is that GM doesn't want anyone messin' with the PCM. We all know that. So, to beat up on Mike@Diablosport just doesn't make much sense to me. He's offering a service/software to make those of us who choose to go that route happy campers. Quite frankly, I don't really care one way or another what Mike claims can be detected or not. If you reflash, YOU are in comlplete violation of what you agreed to in regards to the warranty when you signed on the dotted line. Regardless whether you can "get away with it" or not! Would we be having the same conversation if we were talking about running 12 lbs. of boost along side a 200 shot of nitrous with stock internals? I think not. Doing any upgrade to a car that will clearly void the warranty is done at the wehicle owner's risk. Pay to play, people...Pay to play!

And if these "pay to play" people were the only ones we were talking about we wouldn't be having this conversation. We also wouldn't need "stealth" or "invisible" tunes as all the users would realize the risk they are taking and accept total responsibility for their actions. The fact we have these options in programming indicates there is a faction of users that wish to "have their cake and eat it too" in the deception of GM or other manufacturers in warranty claims.

There have been questions about "launch control" and why GM would put it in if they "didn't want the cars modified and raced"...Doesn't matter what their reason was in putting it in...they have to warranty failures related to it as it is their own programming. On the other hand, they should in no way be forced to warranty anything that is modified by someone other than themselves. Just as the tuners don't want to warranty GM's hard components...GM shouldn't have to be responsible for anything even remotely caused by an aftermarket supplier.

If everyone was as sensible as BWood...then Mike wouldn't have to "get frustrated" with all the posts like this one that are popping up on nearly every manufacturer's website. It's going to be this way until the users of programming all come around to the realization that they aren't entitled to a powertrain warranty once they have tampered with factory settings (no matter how much better or reliable the new settings are). GM (and every other manufacturer) is in business to turn a profit...just like the tuners are...so they are going to protect their after-sale outlay of costs on the items they have sold. EVERY business does this. Those that say they don't consider it are lying...

[GaryTucker]

Originally Posted by jrc1122

Im simply correcting false information

Superchips Cortex Tuner bought new- offers 2 year limited powertrain warranty.

The added part- was for anyone wanting to argue the term limited. I am simply stating a warranty is offered by aftermarket tuners (some of them anyway)

Interesting development...I'm sure it will be a purchase factor for some as enforcement of warranties continues to rise.

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by GaryTucker

And if these "pay to play" people were the only ones we were talking about we wouldn't be having this conversation. We also wouldn't need "stealth" or "invisible" tunes as all the users would realize the risk they are taking and accept total responsibility for their actions. The fact we have these options in programming indicates there is a faction of users that wish to "have their cake and eat it too" in the deception of GM or other manufacturers in warranty claims.

There have been questions about "launch control" and why GM would put it in if they "didn't want the cars modified and raced"...Doesn't matter what their reason was in putting it in...they have to warranty failures related to it as it is their own programming. On the other hand, they should in no way be forced to warranty anything that is modified by someone other than themselves. Just as the tuners don't want to warranty GM's hard components...GM shouldn't have to be responsible for anything even remotely caused by an aftermarket supplier.

If everyone was as sensible as BWood...then Mike wouldn't have to "get frustrated" with all the posts like this one that are popping up on nearly every manufacturer's website. It's going to be this way until the users of programming all come around to the realization that they aren't entitled to a powertrain warranty once they have tampered with factory settings (no matter how much better or reliable the new settings are). GM (and every other manufacturer) is in business to turn a profit...just like the tuners are...so they are going to protect their after-sale outlay of costs on the items they have sold. EVERY business does this. Those that say they don't consider it are lying...

I can't seem to find the the post you refer in QUOTES about "didn't want the cars modified and raced" . I know I posted one that stated GM builds the vehicles with launch systems and sport modes and allows disabling of traction control systems. I also posed the question... where does GM believe owners are going to utilize these features? On city streets? If you use them on city streets, your probably in violation of laws concerning wreckless operation of a motor vehicle. If you do it legally and SAFELY at a drag strip, your violating the conditions of the warranty GM sets forth thus making the warranty voidable. How in your opinion should we use the features that we were charged for. These are not optional equipment choices.

Regarding GM's profitability (or lack thereof) there are far far more issues at hand than a few warranty claims paid out (wrongfully in your opinion) to "modders".

[Hopper]

Originally Posted by BWood

To me, the fact of the matter is that GM doesn't want anyone messin' with the PCM. We all know that. So, to beat up on Mike@Diablosport just doesn't make much sense to me. He's offering a service/software to make those of us who choose to go that route happy campers. Quite frankly, I don't really care one way or another what Mike claims can be detected or not. If you reflash, YOU are in comlplete violation of what you agreed to in regards to the warranty when you signed on the dotted line. Regardless whether you can "get away with it" or not! Would we be having the same conversation if we were talking about running 12 lbs. of boost along side a 200 shot of nitrous with stock internals? I think not. Doing any upgrade to a car that will clearly void the warranty is done at the wehicle owner's risk. Pay to play, people...Pay to play!

Originally Posted by GaryTucker

And if these "pay to play" people were the only ones we were talking about we wouldn't be having this conversation. We also wouldn't need "stealth" or "invisible" tunes as all the users would realize the risk they are taking and accept total responsibility for their actions. The fact we have these options in programming indicates there is a faction of users that wish to "have their cake and eat it too" in the deception of GM or other manufacturers in warranty claims.

There have been questions about "launch control" and why GM would put it in if they "didn't want the cars modified and raced"...Doesn't matter what their reason was in putting it in...they have to warranty failures related to it as it is their own programming. On the other hand, they should in no way be forced to warranty anything that is modified by someone other than themselves. Just as the tuners don't want to warranty GM's hard components...GM shouldn't have to be responsible for anything even remotely caused by an aftermarket supplier.

If everyone was as sensible as BWood...then Mike wouldn't have to "get frustrated" with all the posts like this one that are popping up on nearly every manufacturer's website. It's going to be this way until the users of programming all come around to the realization that they aren't entitled to a powertrain warranty once they have tampered with factory settings (no matter how much better or reliable the new settings are). GM (and every other manufacturer) is in business to turn a profit...just like the tuners are...so they are going to protect their after-sale outlay of costs on the items they have sold. EVERY business does this. Those that say they don't consider it are lying...

Correct and correct. As an enthusiast, I can appreciate what these companies do and the products they offer and, yes, I also support options on these handheld tuners that restore the PCM calibrations to factory specs. Kind of like a boot disc for your PC and I applaud these companies for providing an easy option to do so. What I don't support is trying to hide it by deliberately writing code that eliminates all trace of the modification from the OEM's hardware. That is dishonest at the very least and encourages illegal behavior.

However, these companies are not the ones committing the theft from the OEMs. The consumer who uses their product for this purpose is. If you restore a tuned vehicle to factory calibration after a powertrain failure for the sole purpose of getting a warranty claim paid, if you are successful, you just committed a theft. It's no different than robbing the local gas station.

This is a constant game of cat and mouse OEMs with these companies. Yes...some of them are very clever hackers (most aren't), but GM's engineers are pretty clever too. They're paid to be clever because there's millions of dollars at stake and many dishonest people out there looking to get something for free they don't deserve.

These handheld tuner companies can't completely guarantee the OEM won't catch you with one of their "untraceable" PCM resets. If they could guarantee it, they would back it up with an unlimited warranty because it would be a license to print money. Why can't they? Because their engineers are no better than GM's and we are constantly improving our game too. Do things slip by from time to time? Without doubt. Will GM also be ahead of them a great deal of the time too? Also, without doubt.

Regarding the warranties, I have personally voided many powertrain warranties and refused to pay claims for engine failures by catching people with tunes who represented otherwise. One time I remember talking to a Corvette owner who modified the engine including an aggressive tune. Even looked under his hood as he told me about it and complemented him on what he had done. Later that day, I watched him blow it up on the drag strip.

Three days later, the same car showed up at a dealership sans all the performance mods with a fresh "untraceable" refresh to the PCM. Well...GM caught the reflash and denied the claim. The customer swore up and down the vehicle was never modified and threatened to come back with his lawyer. The dealership called me to meet the customer and his lawyer a few days later. When I saw it was the same car I saw blow up the prior weekend, I don't have to tell you how short the conversation was.

Did I void the whole warranty? No. Just the components that were modified and the associated systems. The rest of the warranty on the unmodified systems remained intact. I can also tell you of many times I have paid claims for honest enthusiasts that owned up to modifications, but had unrelated failures. Recently, a 2010 Camaro owner who had a dealer improperly void his warranty for a major engine failure when the only modification was a cat back exhaust and a CAI. These mods were totally unrelated to the failure and couldn't possibly have caused it. The owner was honest with me, didn't try to hide anything and was upfront about his mods. It was easy to help him.

Bottom line....be honest. Most of the people who work for the OEMs (and most dealer people) love cars and some of us are enthusiasts just like you. It's in our interest to make and keep you happy, but we can't be taken advantage of either. I will bend over backwards looking to help a customer who is honest with me. But if I catch someone lying or trying to take advantage, I'm done....

[2SSCAMARO]

Either you sir are unusually clever to have "personally voided MANY powertrain warranties by catching people with tunes" OR Danbury certainly has far more than it's fair share of "tuners" (very wreckless ones at that). I personally have yet to meet a "tuner" that has benefitted from a related warranty claim. Yes they must be out there somewhere but SOOOO Many in Danbury

[JR-Vette]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

How would a CAI let dirt get to the Main berings? It cones in the intake, through the manifold through the intake valve and out the exhoust valve, the dirt would have to get by the piston rings first.. better case for dirt getting through the CAI is either MAP or MAF sensor failure, or even excessive oil consumption from dirt getting into the cylinders and scratching the walls of the cylinder... one way to prove if the CAI was the culprit would be dirt collected on the MAF sensor wires... but then you would most likely get a failure in that sensor before you get engine damage...

Makes no difference if the 3rd party air cleaner caused dirt into internal engine as the fact is air cleaner, PCM, MAF, 02s, etc are EPA smog devices and under federal law cannot be tampered with, modified OR replaced with no GM or EPA certified parts.

Caught doing it is up to a $100,000 fine and time spent picking up soap in a jail cell.

CAI, lousy design as example one vendor for C6 Covettes tell owners to wedge open the lower radiator to fascia to allow air in, what that does is causes air turbulence and effects MAF outut, which effects PCM air/fueling and false torque management and line pressure for auto trannie.

People who are not experienced in what we do make stupid comments to car owners to suck them into tunes but know crap about proper tuning methods for all kinds of useless mods.

3rd party claims to fill void of GM warranty are useless as tits on a bull and rarely pay out.
Example - supercharger vendor claims powertrain warranty though no drivetrain warranty.
Problem is that vendor has another vendor supply the warranty and voids most if not all claims made when the supercharger vendors product and tune was at fault.

[JR-Vette]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

? Was a theoretical statement entirely....

BUT, MAP and MAF all lead to the intake, just like a CAI, not sure how you could say one could cause that problem and not the other?

FWIW, I have seen/heard of crazier things from dealerships....

Not even close, you should be experienced enough to know a CAI can cause a MAF to output incorrectly, cause it's filter oil to coat MAF and cause incorrect output, cause leaks and unmetered airmass and

hence all those causes will effect AFR, too lean/excess knock, too rich, excess misfires, false line pressure, wrong torque values, and all that effects long term carbon buildup, load on fuel injectors, degrades 02 sensors, ill shifting and false misfires causing torque converter to be randomly locked or unlock so yes a simple CAI can cause lots of damage and one reason a air cleaner has to comply to EPA.

MAP is a big part of the PCM's math and decisions yet wacko CAM grinds ( or CAI airbridges) cause a lot vacuum loss which causes higher MAP KPA values fooling PCM into thinking the engine is at driving conditions it really is not in such as
idle stock being 35 KPA but with 3rd party CAM idle now has 60 KPA ( less vacuum) and PCM thinks engine is not at idle but driving down the road and is falsely adjusting fuel, timing, engine and torque loads.

[JR-Vette]

Originally Posted by jrc1122

Im simply correcting false information

Superchips Cortex Tuner bought new- offers 2 year limited powertrain warranty.

The added part- was for anyone wanting to argue the term limited. I am simply stating a warranty is offered by aftermarket tuners (some of them anyway)

No 3rd party can claim a new warranty that is valid when the mods itself violate EPA federal laws.

Fact is EPA states that no one for any purpose can even hack the seed/security code to even connect and talk to PCM for data transfer and even under SAE HS3000 standard EPA requires GM lock up the source code and security process. Thus any tuning has hacked the password which violates more EPA laws.

Lots of loose talk here but the fact is how many times does a STOCK new car require warranty work ?

Hmm, in 45 years of me owning new GM cars (including 12 Corvettes) exactly once for warranty

Red herring and if you mod then grow some balls and man up and pay the damage your mods caused and not bankrupt GM because dealers want as much warranty work as possible but when GM warranties a powertrain for 100,000 miles it is because they know by history that design is solid and then a rash of blown engines like was done with LS7 and shit tunes that something stinks and it is not the stock PCM calibration.

GM did not write TSBs stating watch out for CAIs for no reason.

[jrc1122]

Originally Posted by JR-Vette

No 3rd party can claim a new warranty that is valid when the mods itself violate EPA federal laws.

Fact is EPA states that no one for any purpose can even hack the seed/security code to even connect and talk to PCM for data transfer and even under SAE HS3000 standard EPA requires GM lock up the source code and security process. Thus any tuning has hacked the password which violates more EPA laws.

Lots of loose talk here but the fact is how many times does a STOCK new car require warranty work ?

Hmm, in 45 years of me owning new GM cars (including 12 Corvettes) exactly once for warranty

Red herring and if you mod then grow some balls and man up and pay the damage your mods caused and not bankrupt GM because dealers want as much warranty work as possible but when GM warranties a powertrain for 100,000 miles it is because they know by history that design is solid and then a rash of blown engines like was done with LS7 and shit tunes that something stinks and it is not the stock PCM calibration.

GM did not write TSBs stating watch out for CAIs for no reason.

Well they DO offer a limited warranty. I don't have all the details, but it has one. Also, Superchips is one of the largest hand held tuner sellers in the market. I am fairly certain they have covered their ass legally when it comes to this warranty.

[jrc1122]

Also with my tuner- if you don't tune it back to stock, and the dealership loads an updated tune on your car overriding the superchips one. That will essentially lock my tuner. Making it not work (until paying them to have it unlocked, $100 bucks)

That is the stated reason that Superchips gives for tuning your car back before going in for service - whether or not you have a warranty left. If your tuner is locked out- you have to pay 100 bucks to unlock it. So thank you Superchips for advising me to tune it back to stock.. THEY ARE SAVING ME 100 bucks. They could have easily not told me to tune back to stock, then when a new tune is loaded (possibly) by the dealership, they could make 100 bucks off me.

[Hopper]

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

Either you sir are unusually clever to have "personally voided MANY powertrain warranties by catching people with tunes" OR Danbury certainly has far more than it's fair share of "tuners" (very wreckless ones at that). I personally have yet to meet a "tuner" that has benefitted from a related warranty claim. Yes they must be out there somewhere but SOOOO Many in Danbury

Not unusually clever on my part. Just some people relying on what they have been told about being able to hide tunes from GM when they can't. We can tell most times and, if we can, we don't pay. Yes, some people are reckless too which makes it easier. By the way, living in Danbury has nothing to do with it. I've worked for GM for 25 years and have never had a case like this in Danbury.

Don't get me wrong. Most people understand "pay to play" and are honest. I only experienced 5 people trying to pull a fast one all of last year. In fact, I've voided less than 50 warranties for tunes in my career. I don't go looking for things like this unless there are other tell tale signs. I only get involved in the extreme cases, but all of these repairs were very expensive. Add that up across the country and it's millions of dollars of warranty waste that hits GM's bottom line. Costs that, if borne fraudulently by GM, impact other areas where this money could have been spent like R&D and future product programs.

Again, I'm not against tuners or what they do. They provide a desired service that the market demands. I'm an enthusiast too and know many friends who have done amazing things with their Camaros and Corvettes to enhance performance, including responsible tuning. In doing so, they know the risks they take. Bottom line, I just don't think GM should bear the financial responsibility for damage done to vehicles when modifications outside of GM's control cause failures due to powertrain loads that we didn't test, design or certify tolerances for.

As stated before, I'm all for the ability to restore stock tunes easily. However, the only purpose in restoring stock tunes that can't be discovered or traced by the OEM is to hide the fact that it ever happened. The only reasons to do this are 1) To allow unscrupulous consumers the ability to try to defraud the OEM if they have a failure and 2) To hide history from a future buyer if they choose to sell the vehicle. If anyone tells you something else, they are lying to you.

Again...just be honest. GM and other OEMs aren't interested in voiding warranties for sport. We're just trying to keep our expenses in check by only paying claims we are truly responsible for.

[brtaus]