rotor life tidbits???

[backtotintops]

I'm still not sure which way to go but I had a nice conversation with a few experienced pcar folks at monticello yesterday....according to them:

They all said the stopping power is insane on ccbs and is better than steel...MUCH better. I was surprised at this.

When I mentioned the Steilow interview that mentioned 30-40 sets of pads per rotor they all thought that was correct but they said the trick is to swap pads at 50%.

They said there is a "coating" on the rotor and when that wears off then they are done. I never heard this before.

All the carbon material used by everybody comes from one factory in europe??? There is another company??? that sells entire kits @27k and they are the only company that warranties the rotors for the life of the car. Not for me but interesting.

comments please???

I'm gonna call StopTech tomorrow and see what they say.

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by backtotintops

I'm still not sure which way to go but I had a nice conversation with a few experienced pcar folks at monticello yesterday....according to them:

They all said the stopping power is insane on ccbs and is better than steel...MUCH better. I was surprised at this.

When I mentioned the Steilow interview that mentioned 30-40 sets of pads per rotor they all thought that was correct but they said the trick is to swap pads at 50%.

They said there is a "coating" on the rotor and when that wears off then they are done. I never heard this before.

All the carbon material used by everybody comes from one factory in europe??? There is another company??? that sells entire kits @27k and they are the only company that warranties the rotors for the life of the car. Not for me but interesting.

comments please???

I'm gonna call StopTech tomorrow and see what they say.

Unfortunately all of that (except for Steilow) is wrong in regards to the Z/28 brakes (and some is just wrong).

This has been addressed in previous threads, search is a friend for those with interest. What specifically is your question? You already tried to ask (insulted) one of the OE engineers elsewhere to advise you how to best compromise the OE Carbon system they so carefully engineered for this specific application.

The system as installed is the very best solution for the cars intended purpose. Aside from swapping rotors for carbon/silicon/carbide, which will trade a bit of weight for even more durability (not a "lifetime warranty"), there is nothing that will perform better.

Anyone considering swapping for iron rotors simply means you are about to buy the wrong car.

[brt3]

One thing I would like to know is this. Every time I've driven cars with carbon-ceramic brakes, I am blown away. They are phenomenally good on track, and I love driving cars with this option.

As I understand it, a LOT of GT3 guys become frustrated with rotor longevity and change out for steel brakes. That's based on reading online forums, and I can't say with any certainty what the facts behind that are.

However, I do know that Porsche uses the brakes to help rotate the car. That seems to be one factor that accelerates rotor wear.

So, my question is this: does the Z/28, in any of it's 5 modes of "Performance Track Management", introduce braking to aid in stability control? The recent special bulletin makes clear that PTM can modulate steering effort, traction control, and stability control -- but I'm not sure what is involved in the traction and stability control systems...

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by brt3

One thing I would like to know is this. Every time I've driven cars with carbon-ceramic brakes, I am blown away. They are phenomenally good on track, and I love driving cars with this option.

As I understand it, a LOT of GT3 guys become frustrated with rotor longevity, and change out for steel brakes. That's based on reading online forums, and I can't say with any certainty what the facts behind that are.

However, I do know that Porsche uses the brakes to help rotate the car. That seems to be one factor that accelerates rotor wear.

So, my question is this: does the Z/28, in any of it's 5 modes of "Performance Track Management", introduce braking to aid in stability control? The recent special bulletin makes clear that PTM can modulate steering effort, traction control, and stability control -- but I'm not sure what is involved in the traction and stability control systems...

The Porsche PCCB is different from the Z/28 brake system even though both are Brembo. The Z/28 rotor construction is superior as are the rigidity of the Z/28 spec calipers vs Porsche calipers.

Yes, Porsche PSM uses the brakes sometimes to adjust the cars position which affects brake life. Yes, the Z/28 does the same thing although you can adjust (via PTM setting) the degree to which it does this and even turn it off if you choose to. Porsche does not have this capability (to turn off- yes, adjust-no).

Don't compare or listen to Porsche owners in regards to the Porsche PCCB vs the OE Z/28 carbon brakes, too many differences, it's not a valid comparison from a number of standpoints. The Porsche system is compromised for track use, the Z/28 is optimized for track use.

[backtotintops]

Thanks for the reply zfat...yes google is my friend so I will look back on here but I am perplexed about "insulting" someone and I will certainly apologize but please point me to that??? either here or in pm.

Thanks

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by backtotintops

Thanks for the reply zfat...yes google is my friend so I will look back on here but I am perplexed about "insulting" someone and I will certainly apologize but please point me to that??? either here or in pm.

Thanks

I came across as harsh in my post to you and I apologize for that. Search here, not Google, there is relevant and detailed discussion on both systems. The "other" forum, no need for apologies, they were surely anticipating the inevitable questions.

The Z/28 ceramic system is so much better than the Porsche PCCB in both hardware and software, they cannot be compared. There is no surface layer on the Z/28 rotors as is on the PCCB's. The reason for the pad change suggestion at 50% is three-fold: 1. helping to reduce thermal shock and maintain heat absorption mass to reduce the flaking off of the Porsche rotor coating, 2. The flexible calipers on the Porsche contribute to tapered wear of the friction material and it's easy to get into the backing plate in one track day if less than 50% material remains, 3. Even if you flip the pads every couple of track days to even out the tapered wear, it's easy to wear close to the backing plate and doing so on a PCCB rotor causes near instant catro$trophic damage.

The Z/28 system is far more robust and perfectly suited to track use. For street use the Porsche PCCB is fine but tracking kills the pads and rotors.

Hope this helps.

It would be a travesty to make any changes to the Z/28 system other than to go to carbon/silicon/carbide rotors which will last essentially "forever" even with track use. They simply do not wear unless physically damaged. Figure hats/friction disks will run approx $14k for a set which could theoretically go from car to car to car. Anyone that wants a set message me and I'll refer you to the supplier.

[frayed]

I remain skeptical of chebbie's ceramics being that much better than porsches in terms of track durability. Consumer level Pcar track use started with ceramics started with the 996 GT2 and have been through multiple generations and to think that chebbie's supplier magically made the rotors that much better is hugely suspect.

Indeed, Porsche announced that it will offer steel rotor replacement for PCCB equipped 991 GT3s for folks who track hard.

IIRC, there are only two OEM level rotor suppliers of ceramic rotors.

I've had two Porsches with ceramics and tracked them both.

-----

That said given the lower replacement cost of ceramics on the Z, I'm not terribly concerned. And, ceramics offer an initial bite and consistency that are other-worldly, even if they cost more in the end to run. Phuck it. It's only money.

[brt3]

Originally Posted by frayed

I remain skeptical of chebbie's ceramics being that much better than porsches in terms of track durability. Consumer level Pcar track use started with ceramics started with the 996 GT2 and have been through multiple generations and to think that chebbie's supplier magically made the rotors that much better is hugely suspect.

Indeed, Porsche announced that it will offer steel rotor replacement for PCCB equipped 991 GT3s for folks who track hard.

IIRC, there are only two OEM level rotor suppliers of ceramic rotors.

I've had two Porsches with ceramics and tracked them both.

-----

That said given the lower replacement cost of ceramics on the Z, I'm not terribly concerned. And, ceramics offer an initial bite and consistency that are other-worldly, even if they cost more in the end to run. Phuck it. It's only money.

It is hard to believe that the Z/28 ceramic brakes are inherently superior to the PCCBs, given how long Porsche's been on the carbon-brake train. However, I wonder if it's possible that the Z/28 somehow got a next-gen product that wasn't quite available when the new GT3 came to market? Just a thought, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong on this. It would benefit me greatly if the ZCCBs are superior to the PCCBs...

[backtotintops]

Somewhere I noticed the price is $2400 per z/28 rotor...if somehow they could get down to @1400 per...basically near the cost of 2 steel ones then I might stick with them...and somewhere on here someone posted a link to a Delco rotor that was @1100???…I think for the ZR1.

It also appears pads for these are @1k!!!…so to really preserve the rotors you change at 50% also which drives up the track consumables huge. Does anyone have the oem pad info?

Will there be any after market rotors that will fit and be less $$$?

As per btr3, I think they are probably superior to the pcar's but wear is wear...so if you are loaded and this is just one in your track fleet you would not care...for me my track days have a budget so I will likely go to steel after a few events.

I spent a few hours digging around the net and the results are mixed but many more of the real hardened corvette track guys, gt3 and ferrari folks go steel. Yes ccm is better up until the reality of replacement cost. See these tidbits and links.

TIDBITS PULLED FORM THREADS
“Coming from a guy that tracks a Zo6 w/ carbon ceramic brakes I would not change them. They work awesome, do not fade and replacement costs are minimal at $1100ea for front's and $1300ea for rears. A big benefit of GM's production volume! Rotors last about a season (25-30 track days) and you do not have to worry about cracking rotors or any of that other stuff. Pads seem to last about 5 days for fronts and 7-8 for rears, so they last quite a while too. I'm trying to find out if the Z28 pad compound is the same as the one on the Z06/ZR1 but if it is a pad replacement with Pagid RS29's or Endless W007 will provide even better braking performance than what the testers had!”

“I track my ZR1 and my CCB rotors last about 70 track sessions. They are great but they do not last forever, and the replacement cost is about 15x the cost of replacing the steel rotors,”

“This feature means that the wear resistance of Carbon Ceramic Material guarantees an approximate disc life of 150,000 km (93,000 miles) for road use and 2,000 km (2,400 miles) for extreme track use (e.g. Ferrari Challenge),” Michelini said.”

“CCM brake does not last nearly as long as people think under racing conditions. One set of rotors and 2 sets of pads in just 2 race weekends on 430 Challenge with slicks is too rich for my blood. I have switched to GT3 spec Brembo steel brakes with equal or better performance. The cost savings on consumables over one race season has already paid for the conversion.”

LINKS
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...onversion.html
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/technic...kes-track.html

and please no dopey responses on how this car is not for me because I don’t want to pay the huge cost of ccm based track consumables. This car is a steal and with a few mods will be perfect for me.

[frayed]

Originally Posted by brt3

It is hard to believe that the Z/28 ceramic brakes are inherently superior to the PCCBs, given how long Porsche's been on the carbon-brake train. However, I wonder if it's possible that the Z/28 somehow got a next-gen product that wasn't quite available when the new GT3 came to market? Just a thought, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong on this. It would benefit me greatly if the ZCCBs are superior to the PCCBs...

Based on production cycles, R&D, and building inventory, I doubt it, and believe that the current Gen PCCBs will have the same technology as the Z/28s. I few of my clients are parts suppliers to the auto industry so I have a bit of context.

Anyway, where the Z may differentiate of the Porsche is cooling. Keeping temps down are key with any braking system, including ceramics. I think both the 991 GT3 and teh Z, from what I've read, have killer ducting setups.

[backtotintops]

GM parts...ccm pads for $457 and rotors for $1386 makes this more palatable.

[United_727]

Front & rear pads list $571.43 per axle
Front & rear rotors list $2410.00 each

Yowza.

[Unreal]

I know several z07/zr1 owners that race their cars a lot have swapped to steel rotors. The braking power is great on the CCBs and steel but the modulation and control they say is much better with steel. They say the CCBs are much more on/off and hard to modulate.

[brt3]

Originally Posted by Unreal

I know several z07/zr1 owners that race their cars a lot have swapped to steel rotors. The braking power is great on the CCBs and steel but the modulation and control they say is much better with steel. They say the CCBs are much more on/off and hard to modulate.

I just spent two days driving on COTA, and have some observations about the brake issue. The event was sponsored by AMG, and we were driving the SLS during full-circuit lapping on the last day.

At least 30% of the cars with steel brakes were experiencing some rotor warping. The CCB cars had no issues with brakes, and always made you feel like Superman.

So, besides what's been mentioned here, let me add the obvious: IF you're in a high-temp environment, or IF you run at tracks with very high-speed sections, then the CC Brakes are a very good investment.

IMHO, of course...