Counterpoint - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

fastball · 07-29-2008, 09:19 PM

Allright, I love the car. It looks great, has the right stuff under the hood, I'm still buying one, but now that I've had a while to digest all the good stuff, I have some concerns:

Is GM really in that bad of financial shape that they do not have every feature they intend to offer on the Camaro available upon immediate launch? I just read today that they will in fact offer a true navigation system, but not untill Dec. of '09. Right along with the delay in the HUD, and who knows what exactly is going on with the Z28.

Perhaps Scott can elaborate, not with specifics on future product, but why such items as an LCD nav is not available immediately, as well as the HUD? And I'm not even interested in either of them!

Here's my point: GM right now is in far too tedius a predicament to play conservative with new product. They should have had 6 speed transmissions full throttle when the GMT-900s were released, should have had the 6 speed standard across the board in all mid-size and full-sized cars by last year. Turn-by-turn nav does not cut it in today's competitive market. There are people who expect things now because the competition has set the bar rather high. Don't tell me GM is in such dire straights that they cannot bring this Camaro, full production, on time, with all the bugs ironed out, with all available features.

If that is in fact the case, and they don't have the finances to hit the road running with all features and models at full production upon immediate release, that raises doubts in my mind.

Watching CNBC last week, I saw a respected investment analyst predict GM to file for bankruptcy within 4 years. This isn't some guy who hates GM or hates American cars or anything like that - it's strictly financial analysis.

Wouldn't a full onslaught of cool, neat, cutting edge, and head of the pack features right upon initial release improve margins on every Camaro sold?

*Mindz* · 07-29-2008, 10:19 PM

My question is this? If they can't develop and integrate the technology before february of next year, should they delay the launch of the camaro until December when they can launch with everything operational?

Shadowsong · 07-29-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindz

My question is this? If they can't develop and integrate the technology before february of next year, should they delay the launch of the camaro until December when they can launch with everything operational?

I'd be perfectly happy with a HUD-less, Nav-less camaro... and I'd rather they didn't push the launch back just for those two options

boxmonkeyracing · 07-29-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowsong

I'd be perfectly happy with a HUD-less, Nav-less camaro... and I'd rather they didn't push the launch back just for those two options

and I'm going to think GM is thinking the same thing.

stovt001 · 07-30-2008, 12:55 AM

There were business types talking about GM going bankrupt 5-8 years ago, when they had much poorer prospects (products, developments, dealers, etc) than they do now. No doubt most of these people talking about GM bankruptcy are holding short positions, and the media is desperate for any bad news it can get to bolster Obama. A simple look at GM's cash holdings, current and projected cash flows, and likely cash value of Hummer shows that bankruptcy is not very likely.

fastball · 07-30-2008, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowsong

I'd be perfectly happy with a HUD-less, Nav-less camaro... and I'd rather they didn't push the launch back just for those two options

But that's not the point. The point is to offer everything the competition does immediately (nav), plus offer what the competition can't (HUD), and do it without going beyond price targets.

It's an ultra competitive market for this car, and I've made mention of that before. The Challenger and Mustang are actually the least of GM's concerns for the Camaro - they've placed it right in the mix of the Nissan Altima 3.5 SE coupe, Honda Accord EX V6 coupe, BMW 1-Series, and Toyota Solara. Every single one of which offer in-dash navigation.

Not exactly an easy crowd.

Cessna510 · 07-30-2008, 04:09 AM

I want HUD, but no NAV and I think they should be released at launch. Like you said I will buy one, but my July 09 purchase date might be moved to Dec.

hollyt · 07-30-2008, 05:12 AM

I was planning on buying one when they first came out but with the delay in HUD and a possible in dash Nav system I will be waiting to see what happens in December 09.

Angrybird 12 · 07-30-2008, 05:53 AM

Whats the difference if they wait till December and bring out the Camaro with all the bells and whistles available at launch, or bring it out in March without some of the High Tech Crap that true drivers don't give a you know what about... I'll tell you, 9 months of selling a true performance car!!! And 9 more months of losing sales to the Challenger and Mustang and 9 more months of whinning and bitching about how come the car isn't out yet... Come on people get real. You want everything and you want it right now. Bunch of spoiled brats.
Besides, all those things are gimmics, like the digital dashboards and talking information centers of the 80's. Nothing to do with what a real performance car is... The true Camaro lovers that really want this car and knows what it is all about won't care one bit.
We need a "back to the basics" Muscle Car, not some high tech Wimp mobile designed for the Ricers.

Remember KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid!!

Yesdearithasabackseat · 07-30-2008, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

Whats the difference if they wait till December and bring out the Camaro with all the bells and whistles available at launch, or bring it out in March without some of the High Tech Crap that true drivers don't give a you know what about... I'll tell you, 9 months of selling a true performance car!!! And 9 more months of losing sales to the Challenger and Mustang and 9 more months of whinning and bitching about how come the car isn't out yet... Come on people get real. You want everything and you want it right now. Bunch of spoiled brats.
Besides, all those things are gimmics, like the digital dashboards and talking information centers of the 80's. Nothing to do with what a real performance car is... The true Camaro lovers that really want this car and knows what it is all about won't care one bit.
We need a "back to the basics" Muscle Car, not some high tech Wimp mobile designed for the Ricers.

Remember KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid!!

I have to agree with skyman. Nav systems need to be updated so often I would rather carry a portable one when needed then wait for it to be available. Who wants to spend upwards of $500 to get an update form the dealer avery few years.

HUD who cares, I'd rather look at the cool dash set-up GM has designed.

Warghost · 07-30-2008, 06:28 AM

I'm on the fence about this one. I'm a big fan of cool tech stuff in my car, and HUD/Navi are things I am definitely looking to get. I plan to wait until those options are available before I buy. But, I don't think Fastball was really whining about the availability of these high-end options. Instead, I think he was asking if we think the delay of those features is due to GM's current financial crisis.

I think that GM Corporate is wanting to start seeing some positive cash flow from Camaro's sales before pouring more money into development on a car that hasn't made them one one penny yet. Besides, it's not unusual for cars to get new and improved options for each model year. Would it have been better if they never bothered to tell us that these options would eventually be offered?

Angrybird 12 · 07-30-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warghost

I'm on the fence about this one. I'm a big fan of cool tech stuff in my car, and HUD/Navi are things I am definitely looking to get. I plan to wait until those options are available before I buy. But, I don't think Fastball was really whining about the availability of these high-end options. Instead, I think he was asking if we think the delay of those features is due to GM's current financial crisis.

I think that GM Corporate is wanting to start seeing some positive cash flow from Camaro's sales before pouring more money into development on a car that hasn't made them one one penny yet. Besides, it's not unusual for cars to get new and improved options for each model year. Would it have been better if they never bothered to tell us that these options would eventually be offered?

Maybe I was a little harsh, and If I was I am sorry. I am just getting tired of all these threads Asking Why can't we have this or that at start of production. We will get what they can put into the car at the time, and will make running changes as the new items become available. Point in kind, when the Solstice and Sky came out, there was no Automatic transmission option, No power door lock switches, NO TURBO, and a few other features that were added later on. but did that stop them from selling every one they could make until they came out with those options, Nope... So should we have to wait for them to bring out the Camaro before all the options are available? I say NO!!

I think it is a good Idea for GM to tell us what is coming in the future, because then that will let us know that what we want will be coming and not to either settle for something we don't want or go buy something else just because it has the ONE feature we are wanting.

Supermans · 07-30-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowsong

I'd be perfectly happy with a HUD-less, Nav-less camaro... and I'd rather they didn't push the launch back just for those two options

As much as I would like a HUD, I will be willing to order my Camaro SS without one to get it as soon as possible..

BitchinCamaro · 07-30-2008, 08:22 AM

It completely normal to have some options arrive a little late. Just about every new car review I've read, be it GM, Toyota, or Honda, has a "they plan to offer XXX later in the year. Sometimes is something little like a 6 disc radio, sometimes is a different engine or hybrid version.
A million things could delay the HUD and NAV. Maybe they didn't realize they had the budget for it until late in development. Maybe they thought enthusiasts wouldn't want it until they talked to the focus group. Maybe their supplier went under. Maybe GM wants the Camaro to have a next gen HUD and NAV and they had to start from scratch.
Each person just needs to decide for them self if an extra 6-9 months without a Camaro is worth it to them.

07-29-2008, 09:19 PM	#1
fastball Banned Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS 6MT Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 4,372	Counterpoint Allright, I love the car. It looks great, has the right stuff under the hood, I'm still buying one, but now that I've had a while to digest all the good stuff, I have some concerns: Is GM really in that bad of financial shape that they do not have every feature they intend to offer on the Camaro available upon immediate launch? I just read today that they will in fact offer a true navigation system, but not untill Dec. of '09. Right along with the delay in the HUD, and who knows what exactly is going on with the Z28. Perhaps Scott can elaborate, not with specifics on future product, but why such items as an LCD nav is not available immediately, as well as the HUD? And I'm not even interested in either of them! Here's my point: GM right now is in far too tedius a predicament to play conservative with new product. They should have had 6 speed transmissions full throttle when the GMT-900s were released, should have had the 6 speed standard across the board in all mid-size and full-sized cars by last year. Turn-by-turn nav does not cut it in today's competitive market. There are people who expect things now because the competition has set the bar rather high. Don't tell me GM is in such dire straights that they cannot bring this Camaro, full production, on time, with all the bugs ironed out, with all available features. If that is in fact the case, and they don't have the finances to hit the road running with all features and models at full production upon immediate release, that raises doubts in my mind. Watching CNBC last week, I saw a respected investment analyst predict GM to file for bankruptcy within 4 years. This isn't some guy who hates GM or hates American cars or anything like that - it's strictly financial analysis. Wouldn't a full onslaught of cool, neat, cutting edge, and head of the pack features right upon initial release improve margins on every Camaro sold?

07-29-2008, 10:19 PM	#2
Mindz E.B.A.H. Drives: you wild... Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: In the happy padded room wearing a jacket that makes me hug myself... Posts: 18,421	My question is this? If they can't develop and integrate the technology before february of next year, should they delay the launch of the camaro until December when they can launch with everything operational? __________________ Blue Rush, 2010 SS [Car of the Week 3/22/2010] Traded in on...ZLZBUBB, 2013 ZL1

07-30-2008, 12:55 AM	#5
stovt001 Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,812	There were business types talking about GM going bankrupt 5-8 years ago, when they had much poorer prospects (products, developments, dealers, etc) than they do now. No doubt most of these people talking about GM bankruptcy are holding short positions, and the media is desperate for any bad news it can get to bolster Obama. A simple look at GM's cash holdings, current and projected cash flows, and likely cash value of Hummer shows that bankruptcy is not very likely. __________________ "It's kind of fun to do the impossible" - Walt Disney There's a great big beautiful tomorrow shining at the end of every day There's a great big beautiful tomorrow Just a dream away

07-30-2008, 04:09 AM	#7
Cessna510 Gm loyalist Drives: 04 z71 tahoe\99 SS m6 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Baxter Springs Ks Posts: 362	I want HUD, but no NAV and I think they should be released at launch. Like you said I will buy one, but my July 09 purchase date might be moved to Dec. __________________

07-30-2008, 05:53 AM	#9
Angrybird 12 7 year Cancer Survivor! Drives: 17 Cruze RS, 07 G6 GT, 99 Astro Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 21,547	I am sick and tired of all these complaints... Whats the difference if they wait till December and bring out the Camaro with all the bells and whistles available at launch, or bring it out in March without some of the High Tech Crap that true drivers don't give a you know what about... I'll tell you, 9 months of selling a true performance car!!! And 9 more months of losing sales to the Challenger and Mustang and 9 more months of whinning and bitching about how come the car isn't out yet... Come on people get real. You want everything and you want it right now. Bunch of spoiled brats. Besides, all those things are gimmics, like the digital dashboards and talking information centers of the 80's. Nothing to do with what a real performance car is... The true Camaro lovers that really want this car and knows what it is all about won't care one bit. We need a "back to the basics" Muscle Car, not some high tech Wimp mobile designed for the Ricers. Remember KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid!! __________________ Cancer's a bitch! Enjoy life while you can! LIVE, LOVE, DRIVE... The Bird is the word!

07-30-2008, 05:12 AM	#8
hollyt Drives: 2003 corvette Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: new jersey Posts: 30	I was planning on buying one when they first came out but with the delay in HUD and a possible in dash Nav system I will be waiting to see what happens in December 09.

07-30-2008, 06:28 AM	#11
Warghost Drives: Camaros & Mustangs Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Port St Lucie, FL. Posts: 168	I'm on the fence about this one. I'm a big fan of cool tech stuff in my car, and HUD/Navi are things I am definitely looking to get. I plan to wait until those options are available before I buy. But, I don't think Fastball was really whining about the availability of these high-end options. Instead, I think he was asking if we think the delay of those features is due to GM's current financial crisis. I think that GM Corporate is wanting to start seeing some positive cash flow from Camaro's sales before pouring more money into development on a car that hasn't made them one one penny yet. Besides, it's not unusual for cars to get new and improved options for each model year. Would it have been better if they never bothered to tell us that these options would eventually be offered?

07-30-2008, 08:22 AM	#14
BitchinCamaro Drives: 2010 SS/RS Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Pflugerville, TX Posts: 223 View My Garage	It completely normal to have some options arrive a little late. Just about every new car review I've read, be it GM, Toyota, or Honda, has a "they plan to offer XXX later in the year. Sometimes is something little like a 6 disc radio, sometimes is a different engine or hybrid version. A million things could delay the HUD and NAV. Maybe they didn't realize they had the budget for it until late in development. Maybe they thought enthusiasts wouldn't want it until they talked to the focus group. Maybe their supplier went under. Maybe GM wants the Camaro to have a next gen HUD and NAV and they had to start from scratch. Each person just needs to decide for them self if an extra 6-9 months without a Camaro is worth it to them.