[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

1. It's too late because the whole "lets put a bigger blower on it" has been done to death. There is nothing inovative with this car. The Demon has a box that comes with a computer to run race fuel, drag radials from the factory, they send the liquid secondary from the intercooler to the A/C. These are things I can geek out about. The ZL1 was the first pony car that was a triple threat. The Camaro had dual-mode exhuast and magnetic ride well before the Mustang, and the Mustang still doesn't have a torque vectoring diff. The GT350 has a unique FPC high revving V8 and CF wheels. The Corvette went mid-engine and puts exotic layout with a Chevy small block in the hands of normal Joe's. These cars inovated, and give me something to talk about, they bring excitement from an engineering standpoint. You can talk to your buddies and say, "hey, did you see the new 'vette? It went mid-engine!!!". The GT500 formula has been done, other than the DCT, but I just can't get all that excited about a DCT, other than the fact that Ford finally went with Tremec, so hopefully it won't fail like the DCTs in the Fiesta and Focus. I'm not going up to anyone and saying "hey, did you see the new GT500, they gave it a bigger blower and a DCT." Yawn...

2. The prices are not exactly similar, a 3LT (that they used in the test) is $15k more than a 1LT which is not a performance option, and you have to pay ADMs on the GT500, so the GT500 is more expensive by tens of thousands of dollars that a freaking Corvette. You can get a 1LT with the Magnetic ride and Z51 performance package for $67, and no ADMs. Not to mention, the GT500 would be $10k cheaper if the Ford faithfull would stop paying ADMs. Let's face it, most folks that are buying a GT500 right now are going to add a few optipons like the handling package and the technology package which brings the MSRP to $78,500. A few more ticks of the options list, and we are conservitavely at $80,000. Add some ADM and that's $90k or so. At that price, I would just wait for the C8 Z06. If this were two years ago, and the price were a little lower, we wouldn't even have the C8 to compare to, it would make more sense.

3. As I said, VIR full course is an HP track. Put those two on most any other track, and the 'vette will probably win, with several hundred HP less. And again, wait a year, and the Z06 'vette will be competitively priced to a GT500, and will blow the GT500 away on a track.

4. It's also too late because here you are, a Mustang guy, on a car forum of a car that is going away, no longer in development, saying, wow, we finally beat you after you gave up! Whatever makes you fell better, but that's pretty pethetic. We all know that if Chevy kept interest in the Camaro, they would be showing off an updated ZL1 with the ZR1 engine (LT5), and I can guarantee you, it would blow the GT500 off of any track. They could be offering it as a 2020 MY because the LT5 is no longer used in any car. Plus, they would probably still offer a manual as well. But, the Mustang crowd gets a win because Chevy gave up on the Camaro. Enjoy!

5. Which one would I pick? In reality, neither. I'm plenty happy with my Camaro right now, and in the near future. It's my daily driver, and weekend road course car. But, if I was in the market, I would pick up a used (pre-ugly-refresh) SS1LE. I could get one for less than half of the price of the cars we are talking about, and then get a boat with the difference. If the GT500 and C8 were my only choices, I would pick the C8 without even thinking. To me, it's an exotic with a Chevy small block at Chevy prices. I have no need for 8 billion HP for a daily driver, I am already frustrated I can't get into my 455 HP car's throttle that often. I don't 1/4 mile, I don't roll race, stoplight race, or street race of any type. I am not a big fan of the power band of FI engines and prefer N/A. The interior and exterior of the C8 is MUCH better looking, in my opinion. In fact, I hate the black bumper thing on the the front of the GT500, it looks as ugly as the latest Camaro refresh. The GT350 is a better looking Mustang (and the best looking Mustang in years), in my opinion. So, yeah, C8 all day and twice on Sunday. It's not like I would take that thing to a road course and say, wow this thing is too slow, I better get a GT500.

But, if you like the GT500 more, I respect that, and for Ford guys and Mustang guys, it's a solid car. I would be frustrated it took so long to comeout, and I would be pissed to have to pay ADM or search for a deal, or wait even longer for a deal to appear. The only thing I would ask for if I were a Mustang guy, was a manual transmission option. Not that I hate a DCT, but it would be nice to have the option. Same could be said for the C8 too.

This is a great post man! I have to agree on all accounts, even down to the 350 being better looking and the 500 and C8 not having manuals is weak. Why doesn't the 500 have a manual option? We all know the complications on the C8, but is Ford scared to put a manual in the 500 or something? Protecting 350 sales maybe?

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

1. It's too late because the whole "lets put a bigger blower on it" has been done to death. There is nothing inovative with this car. The Demon has a box that comes with a computer to run race fuel, drag radials from the factory, they send the liquid secondary from the intercooler to the A/C. These are things I can geek out about. The ZL1 was the first pony car that was a triple threat. The Camaro had dual-mode exhuast and magnetic ride well before the Mustang, and the Mustang still doesn't have a torque vectoring diff. The GT350 has a unique FPC high revving V8 and CF wheels. The Corvette went mid-engine and puts exotic layout with a Chevy small block in the hands of normal Joe's. These cars inovated, and give me something to talk about, they bring excitement from an engineering standpoint. You can talk to your buddies and say, "hey, did you see the new 'vette? It went mid-engine!!!". The GT500 formula has been done, other than the DCT, but I just can't get all that excited about a DCT, other than the fact that Ford finally went with Tremec, so hopefully it won't fail like the DCTs in the Fiesta and Focus. I'm not going up to anyone and saying "hey, did you see the new GT500, they gave it a bigger blower and a DCT." Yawn...

2. The prices are not exactly similar, a 3LT (that they used in the test) is $15k more than a 1LT which is not a performance option, and you have to pay ADMs on the GT500, so the GT500 is more expensive by tens of thousands of dollars that a freaking Corvette. You can get a 1LT with the Magnetic ride and Z51 performance package for $67, and no ADMs. Not to mention, the GT500 would be $10k cheaper if the Ford faithfull would stop paying ADMs. Let's face it, most folks that are buying a GT500 right now are going to add a few optipons like the handling package and the technology package which brings the MSRP to $78,500. A few more ticks of the options list, and we are conservitavely at $80,000. Add some ADM and that's $90k or so. At that price, I would just wait for the C8 Z06. If this were two years ago, and the price were a little lower, we wouldn't even have the C8 to compare to, it would make more sense.

3. As I said, VIR full course is an HP track. Put those two on most any other track, and the 'vette will probably win, with several hundred HP less. And again, wait a year, and the Z06 'vette will be competitively priced to a GT500, and will blow the GT500 away on a track.

4. It's also too late because here you are, a Mustang guy, on a car forum of a car that is going away, no longer in development, saying, wow, we finally beat you after you gave up! Whatever makes you fell better, but that's pretty pethetic. We all know that if Chevy kept interest in the Camaro, they would be showing off an updated ZL1 with the ZR1 engine (LT5), and I can guarantee you, it would blow the GT500 off of any track. They could be offering it as a 2020 MY because the LT5 is no longer used in any car. Plus, they would probably still offer a manual as well. But, the Mustang crowd gets a win because Chevy gave up on the Camaro. Enjoy!

5. Which one would I pick? In reality, neither. I'm plenty happy with my Camaro right now, and in the near future. It's my daily driver, and weekend road course car. But, if I was in the market, I would pick up a used (pre-ugly-refresh) SS1LE. I could get one for less than half of the price of the cars we are talking about, and then get a boat with the difference. If the GT500 and C8 were my only choices, I would pick the C8 without even thinking. To me, it's an exotic with a Chevy small block at Chevy prices. I have no need for 8 billion HP for a daily driver, I am already frustrated I can't get into my 455 HP car's throttle that often. I don't 1/4 mile, I don't roll race, stoplight race, or street race of any type. I am not a big fan of the power band of FI engines and prefer N/A. The interior and exterior of the C8 is MUCH better looking, in my opinion. In fact, I hate the black bumper thing on the the front of the GT500, it looks as ugly as the latest Camaro refresh. The GT350 is a better looking Mustang (and the best looking Mustang in years), in my opinion. So, yeah, C8 all day and twice on Sunday. It's not like I would take that thing to a road course and say, wow this thing is too slow, I better get a GT500.

But, if you like the GT500 more, I respect that, and for Ford guys and Mustang guys, it's a solid car. I would be frustrated it took so long to comeout, and I would be pissed to have to pay ADM or search for a deal, or wait even longer for a deal to appear. The only thing I would ask for if I were a Mustang guy, was a manual transmission option. Not that I hate a DCT, but it would be nice to have the option. Same could be said for the C8 too.

Do you feel better now?

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

This is a great post man! I have to agree on all accounts, even down to the 350 being better looking and the 500 and C8 not having manuals is weak. Why doesn't the 500 have a manual option? We all know the complications on the C8, but is Ford scared to put a manual in the 500 or something? Protecting 350 sales maybe?

I don't get it, who cares if it doesn't perform as well as the dct. Use the dct for all advertising metrics and comparisons but give the manual guys an offering.

Maybe it would take away from the hype of the dct, or maybe all funds were used in the development and incorporation of the dct. However I really doubt slapping a tremec on there would have been all that difficult. So what if it needs some torque management and nannies to protect itself from the factory.

It's a front engine rwd pony car. It's a mustang, a Shelby at that, this thing deserved a manual, almost crazy to think it doesn't have one. Could have possibly been one of the most fun cars ever with tons of "cowboy science" with an m6 or m7. 760hp rowing your own gears!

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't get it, who cares if it doesn't perform as well as the dct. Use the dct for all advertising metrics and comparisons but give the manual guys an offering.

Maybe it would take away from the hype of the dct, or maybe all funds were used in the development and incorporation of the dct. However I really doubt slapping a tremec on there would have been all that difficult. So what if it needs some torque management and nannies to protect itself from the factory.

It's a front engine rwd pony car. It's a mustang, a Shelby at that, this thing deserved a manual, almost crazy to think it doesn't have one. Could have possibly been one of the most fun cars ever with tons of "cowboy science" with an m6 or m7. 760hp rowing your own gears!

The manual adds a ton of extra validation work and cost, including certification testing on that additional powertrain combo. I'm not surprised why they don't offer it, especially if the DCT is really dialed in.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't get it, who cares if it doesn't perform as well as the dct. Use the dct for all advertising metrics and comparisons but give the manual guys an offering.

Maybe it would take away from the hype of the dct, or maybe all funds were used in the development and incorporation of the dct. However I really doubt slapping a tremec on there would have been all that difficult. So what if it needs some torque management and nannies to protect itself from the factory.

It's a front engine rwd pony car. It's a mustang, a Shelby at that, this thing deserved a manual, almost crazy to think it doesn't have one. Could have possibly been one of the most fun cars ever with tons of "cowboy science" with an m6 or m7. 760hp rowing your own gears!

That's exactly how I feel and why it is disappointing to me. Maybe they will offer a manual in the 2021 or 22 MY's. Let the DCT show the full potential and then offer a new option later for those that want it.

Originally Posted by vtirocz

The manual adds a ton of extra validation work and cost, including certification testing on that additional powertrain combo. I'm not surprised why they don't offer it, especially if the DCT is really dialed in.

This is true, and I read that GM could not find anyone to design a manual for the C8 for a reasonable price as well as the issues making it fit.

That said, this is the Premier Mustang, the GT500 which in some trims costs $100K. I think there is room on the profit structure of this car to manage to offer a manual. It is still just a Mustang built on the same assembly line as ecoboost and GT cars. I believe the engine is hand built, but I still contend at these prices this thing is pure profit for Ford.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Do you feel better now?

He has a point though.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

I do think IF you could get a 500 for msrp it would be a good value. But to have it similarly optioned to the zl1 it would probably be more like 78k, then add in the handling package and your closer to 80k. Not to mention the fact that I think the interior in the mustang is horrible, had a new mustang rental not too long ago. Couldn't stand the interior.

It's really more like $84k to option the GT500 equivalently to the ZLE, and you can't even get heated/cooled Recaros, heated steering wheel or PDR in the GT500.

+1 on the interior. Even the Shelbys are awful.

IMHO, the 'base' GT500 with handling package and a set of Cup 2's will be very close to the CFTP in track times.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by bradmo9

It's always a drivers race in the 1/4 no matter what car your in. But at a dragstrip EQUAL good drivers ZLE vs GT 500 isn't a drivers race. The 500 will be close to .4-.5 second faster.

0.3-0.4 given both car's best runs to date.

Originally Posted by Evansa22

Lastly, anyone who's seen the video of speed phenom running on a backroad. I laughed out loud when he parks the car and spins the rotary dial to park. Just cant get into it

Ram 1500 gear selector is up there for worst decision on the GT500.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't get it, who cares if it doesn't perform as well as the dct. Use the dct for all advertising metrics and comparisons but give the manual guys an offering.

Maybe it would take away from the hype of the dct, or maybe all funds were used in the development and incorporation of the dct. However I really doubt slapping a tremec on there would have been all that difficult. So what if it needs some torque management and nannies to protect itself from the factory.

It's a front engine rwd pony car. It's a mustang, a Shelby at that, this thing deserved a manual, almost crazy to think it doesn't have one. Could have possibly been one of the most fun cars ever with tons of "cowboy science" with an m6 or m7. 760hp rowing your own gears!

C7 ZR1 manual could easily be used on the GT500. Ford says they might do it. I'm hopeful as I'm a manual guy. Don't even get me started on the C8 excuses GM tried to peddle...it was a cost decision pure and simple - all other excuses have been thoroughly debunked.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

That is incredibly unlikely. As HP is roughly RPMs X Torque(at that RPM), the only way you can add a large amount of HP to an N/A engine that is pretty much the same as the last generation, is to increase the displacement (gives more torque), or put the peak HP at a higher RPM.

If this were a turbo engine, then it would be easier to bump up the HP (by adjusting boost).

But for an N/A engine, they would have to bump up the displacement or peak HP RPMs. Neither of these are very likely for the Voodoo.

Agree. You cannot make timing changes and A/F ratio changes to equate to the type of HP that @unavailablezl1 is suggesting. Also everybody with new 19 and 20 R would be allover this.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

Agree. You cannot make timing changes and A/F ratio changes to equate to the type of HP that @unavailablezl1 is suggesting. Also everybody with new 19 and 20 R would be allover this.

Spot on. What color combo is your 350R Slither? Agreed with above posters that the 350 is far and above the best looking S550

[bradmo9]

[QUOTE=NW-99SS;10682071]0.3-0.4 given both car's best runs to date.


True but that was the very first car delivered and the only production car we know that has run. Also in positive DA. HERO runs with negative DA will be faster how much who knows how much. If the torque management and launch control doesn't let it leave any harder it will not be much faster than the 10.6. But we'll have to wait an see.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

The manual adds a ton of extra validation work and cost, including certification testing on that additional powertrain combo. I'm not surprised why they don't offer it, especially if the DCT is really dialed in.

While true, it would add this on any vehicle with two trans options. Doesn't the gt500 carry enough weight to warrant this? And it's not like any redesigning has to be done, s550 with manuals are already a thing.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

This... but but but it's a mid engine corvette... we learned a few things, the gt500 cftp is very capable, the base is more capable than many thought it'd be, and the underpowered(relatively speaking lol) car that can be had for less can compete with the gt500s and even beat them at certain things.

I think this is where I am at as well. The Base car handles a lot better than I thought it would. There were alot of people here that thought the base car would handle like a matchbox car and based on this one review that doesn't seem to be the case.

And the C8 is giving a preview of things to come, seeing how well the Z51 managed itself can't wait to see what the performance trims do.

Now my initial reactions on the GT500 given some time to digest them a bit.

I think the base car at MSRP is a fair value, it handles much better than many thought (myself included) the magazine times are disappointing as far as 1/4 goes but the trap speed shows the power is there, its well capable of 10 second passes on the strip from the factory and I wouldn't be surprised when more get delivered I don't think 10s will be the outlier I think they will be fairly common.

The CFTP, from all accounts seems like it handles amazing and really puts tho whole package together for the track rats. But until we see some more lap times especially compared to the base car and the ZL1/ZLE I don't know if it's price tag is justified- and that is something I have been on record as saying. It needed to not just beat other cars it needed to put up wow numbers.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

0.3-0.4 given both car's best runs to date.



Ram 1500 gear selector is up there for worst decision on the GT500.



C7 ZR1 manual could easily be used on the GT500. Ford says they might do it. I'm hopeful as I'm a manual guy. Don't even get me started on the C8 excuses GM tried to peddle...it was a cost decision pure and simple - all other excuses have been thoroughly debunked.

Yea I'm hopefully, I won't be getting a gt500 but as an American muscle fan it's a must, I'm sure there's prospective gt500 buyers that would love the idea. Maybe a tr6060 instead of the tr7070, 7 speed would be cool but, A idk if it's as robust as the 6 gear and B it's probably easier to use an existing trans for a front engine front trans car like the 6060s on camaros and prior gt500s then the 7070 rear mounted transaxle from the c7.