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Old 08-16-2010, 02:27 PM   #1
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Have you done a brake upgrade for road course use?

I use my car on road courses - Pocono, NJ Motorsports Park, Summit Point, Watkins Glenn, etc.... I'm also planning to take the car to run One Lap of America next spring.

I'm using OEM take-off rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, Goodridge lines, Superblue fluid.

The rotors and front pads made it through 4 track days. The rears could probably make it though 6 or 8 track days. I don't care about the noise and dust from the pads, and frankly, these take-off rotors are $60 delivered, so I'm not in a big hurry to buy $500 racing rotors.

What I am concerned with is the calipers. Knocking those slider pins out and then hammering them back in makes me nervous. How many times can I really do that before I damage the caliper or pin, and I'm concerned it's not going to be obvious and will fail at a bad time.

So, if you upgraded calipers, let me know what you did and how it's working out. I am satisfied with the cars ability to stop right now. The issues are rotors warping and the slider pins in the calipers. Or if you just want to talk about brakes, that'd be fine too.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericedelman View Post
I use my car on road courses - Pocono, NJ Motorsports Park, Summit Point, Watkins Glenn, etc.... I'm also planning to take the car to run One Lap of America next spring.

I'm using OEM take-off rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, Goodridge lines, Superblue fluid.

The rotors and front pads made it through 4 track days. The rears could probably make it though 6 or 8 track days. I don't care about the noise and dust from the pads, and frankly, these take-off rotors are $60 delivered, so I'm not in a big hurry to buy $500 racing rotors.

What I am concerned with is the calipers. Knocking those slider pins out and then hammering them back in makes me nervous. How many times can I really do that before I damage the caliper or pin, and I'm concerned it's not going to be obvious and will fail at a bad time.

So, if you upgraded calipers, let me know what you did and how it's working out. I am satisfied with the cars ability to stop right now. The issues are rotors warping and the slider pins in the calipers. Or if you just want to talk about brakes, that'd be fine too.
Search for what Pedders did with CTS-V calipers/rotors. There's a new thread with some comments on pads and what-not, too. This is a direction I'd seriously consider because I'm all about making sure I have access to replacement parts when I need to.
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:08 PM   #3
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it's a thread in this section labeled "Z28 brakes if I ran GM". Good info on brakes in there...
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:16 PM   #4
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it's a thread in this section labeled "Z28 brakes if I ran GM". Good info on brakes in there...
Most excellent thread, yup!
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71401



It looks like the CTS-V set uses a larger diameter pin. Maybe Pete will chime in on the durability of the pins.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:31 PM   #5
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I upgraded to a Stop Tech BBK several months ago, the differences are astounding. There is no comparison in brake feel, modulation, lack of fade and overall stopping power. Sure they are pricey but you definitely won't want to drive on stock brakes after you experience the Stop Techs.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:34 PM   #6
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+1 on the Stop Techs. They are great and they look great as well. The CTS solution was a good cheaper solution for those not wanting to upgrade with a full big brake kit. But, the amount that your using/going through pads/rotors, you may as well just upgrade the entire system. Good luck!
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:59 PM   #7
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There is no question you can spend a lot of money on high quality brake upgrades. Before you do, let me ask a question or two. You don't seem to feel you r current brakes are not up to the task. You seem to be getting decent life out of them. Aside from the pins is there anything else that you are not satisfied with your on track brake performance?
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:54 PM   #8
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The brakes are fine for most of the track use I do. I had problems during a day on the long course at Pocono, where I was slowing the car down from 140+ to probably 40 or so to get back into the infield on the course. The course runs counterclockwise, it's going into the turn at the top.



I'd guess this is how the last set of rotors warped. And towards the end of each session, the brakes faded off some. Not to the point of no pedal, but they were hot and working less efficiently.

But my big concern is those slider pins. They just don't seem secure, and I don't like knocking them in with a hammer and smacking the caliper. I'd be much happier with a bolt. I'm sure Brembo knows what they're doing, but it would make me more comfortable in the car.

That's a good question you brought up though. It already made me think about whether better brake ducts for cooling might be a modification to make on the car.

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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
There is no question you can spend a lot of money on high quality brake upgrades. Before you do, let me ask a question or two. You don't seem to feel you r current brakes are not up to the task. You seem to be getting decent life out of them. Aside from the pins is there anything else that you are not satisfied with your on track brake performance?
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:11 PM   #9
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The brakes are fine for most of the track use I do. I had problems during a day on the long course at Pocono, where I was slowing the car down from 140+ to probably 40 or so to get back into the infield on the course. The course runs counterclockwise, it's going into the turn at the top.



I'd guess this is how the last set of rotors warped. And towards the end of each session, the brakes faded off some. Not to the point of no pedal, but they were hot and working less efficiently.

But my big concern is those slider pins. They just don't seem secure, and I don't like knocking them in with a hammer and smacking the caliper. I'd be much happier with a bolt. I'm sure Brembo knows what they're doing, but it would make me more comfortable in the car.

That's a good question you brought up though. It already made me think about whether better brake ducts for cooling might be a modification to make on the car.
Brake ducts are critical on a car as powerful and heavy as a Camaro. As for the pins, the guys that run SCCA T2 and T1 are doing the samething you are doing weekend after weekend. I'ld suggest you get new pins and spring clips avera so often. That should handle the pin problem.

How often do you change out brake fluid?
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericedelman View Post
I use my car on road courses - Pocono, NJ Motorsports Park, Summit Point, Watkins Glenn, etc.... I'm also planning to take the car to run One Lap of America next spring.

I'm using OEM take-off rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, Goodridge lines, Superblue fluid.

The rotors and front pads made it through 4 track days. The rears could probably make it though 6 or 8 track days. I don't care about the noise and dust from the pads, and frankly, these take-off rotors are $60 delivered, so I'm not in a big hurry to buy $500 racing rotors.

What I am concerned with is the calipers. Knocking those slider pins out and then hammering them back in makes me nervous. How many times can I really do that before I damage the caliper or pin, and I'm concerned it's not going to be obvious and will fail at a bad time.

So, if you upgraded calipers, let me know what you did and how it's working out. I am satisfied with the cars ability to stop right now. The issues are rotors warping and the slider pins in the calipers. Or if you just want to talk about brakes, that'd be fine too.
What size wheels are you running? Soon, there will be a new AP Racing system that will even fit 18" track wheels. This solution will resolve just about any issue people will experience when tracking their Camaro. The front 2-piece rotor assembly utilizes the patented strap-drive technology, currently the best method of attaching an iron rotor to an aluminum hat. It has all the benefits of a full-floating system without the drawbacks.

The brake bias will be set up for optimum braking performance, with special attention given to trail braking, without upsetting the ABS. And, beyond mechanical balance, the system will be balanced thermally as well. This means that the rear brakes will be sized to thermally compliment the fronts (just like is done for top-level pro race cars), not run at different temperature profiles. Drivers have found this approach works very well to help getting pad selection dialed in. It is very difficult to chase pad compounds when you continue to 'fall off the curve' of the rear pads.

All I would suggest adding after that would be cooling ducts with some adjustability to keep the whichever pads you choose in their 'sweet spot'. Then, you will have a system that will last for years with only pad selection to consider from track to track as far as tuning is concerned.

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Old 08-17-2010, 06:04 PM   #11
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The brakes are fine for most of the track use I do. I had problems during a day on the long course at Pocono, where I was slowing the car down from 140+ to probably 40 or so to get back into the infield on the course. The course runs counterclockwise, it's going into the turn at the top.



I'd guess this is how the last set of rotors warped. And towards the end of each session, the brakes faded off some. Not to the point of no pedal, but they were hot and working less efficiently.

But my big concern is those slider pins. They just don't seem secure, and I don't like knocking them in with a hammer and smacking the caliper. I'd be much happier with a bolt. I'm sure Brembo knows what they're doing, but it would make me more comfortable in the car.

That's a good question you brought up though. It already made me think about whether better brake ducts for cooling might be a modification to make on the car.
It's more likely you are outdriving the HP+ pads on track now. Once overheated they struggle to maintain a good transfer layer and thus the pulsing you are observing.

As your front pad is shared with STi's , EVO's and a host of other Brembo equipped cars you have a myriad of pad compounds to choose from. The rear pad is an older Brembo shape which also has good coverage.

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Old 08-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #12
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:23 PM   #13
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How often do you change out brake fluid?
I've changed the fluid when I've changed the pads/rotors. Maybe I should change it before each track event, instead of every other event?

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What size wheels are you running? Soon, there will be a new AP Racing system that will even fit 18" track wheels.
All I would suggest adding after that would be cooling ducts with some adjustability to keep the whichever pads you choose in their 'sweet spot'. Then, you will have a system that will last for years with only pad selection to consider from track to track as far as tuning is concerned.
Chris
I'm using 275/40-20 tires on the factory 9" wheel. I'm still debating wheels/tires. When we take the car to One Lap next year, we need to run a tire from Tire Rack since they sponsor the event. The Michelin Pilot Sport is a good choice, but I'm torn between going to an 18" or a 19" wheel, in part because I may want to go with bigger brakes. I'd be real interested in hearing about the new AP brakes.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:47 PM   #14
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Before you change your routine run another event. You can use heat strips that change color when they reach a certain temp or a pyrometer after a s session to check your rotor and caliper temps. Working from some base line numbers will be a big plus.

TireRack does carry the RE-11 Bridgestone in 305/30/19. They work out well for us in terms of performance and driver feedback. Both of these cars are on the Bridgestones. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100421
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:44 AM   #15
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I've changed the fluid when I've changed the pads/rotors. Maybe I should change it before each track event, instead of every other event?
A flush before eas\ch event is a very good idea. Make sure you are using the good stuff, like AP600 -- or AP PRF if you want to go all out NASCAR-style.

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I'm using 275/40-20 tires on the factory 9" wheel. I'm still debating wheels/tires. When we take the car to One Lap next year, we need to run a tire from Tire Rack since they sponsor the event. The Michelin Pilot Sport is a good choice, but I'm torn between going to an 18" or a 19" wheel, in part because I may want to go with bigger brakes. I'd be real interested in hearing about the new AP brakes.
We are sizing the new setup to clear 18" racing wheels as tire selection and pricing is better for us track junkies. 19's should be no problem at all. A larger rotor would be unnecessarily heavy, something this car doesn't need any more of! The front rotors will be 36mm thick, 72-vane and high-grade AP Racing iron alloy, so thermal stability should be well under control. We use the same rotor on modified M3's that are regularly tracked. Camaros are almost 200 lbs. heavier, so brake ducting will be recommended for the fastest guys on the heavy braking tracks. Peak temperature monitoring will be important for pad selection as well.

More details will be released later this month.

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Old 08-18-2010, 08:36 AM   #16
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You know... For track time per dollar spent, he has a pretty good plan in place using the factory rotors he can pick up for pennies on the dollar, and spending the money saved upgrading the helmet contents
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:40 AM   #17
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Search for what Pedders did with CTS-V calipers/rotors. There's a new thread with some comments on pads and what-not, too. This is a direction I'd seriously consider because I'm all about making sure I have access to replacement parts when I need to.

I was considering getting the cts-v 6 pistion front calipers but can you run the stock 4 piston on the rear when doing this swap??
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:12 AM   #18
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I was considering getting the cts-v 6 pistion front calipers but can you run the stock 4 piston on the rear when doing this swap??
Umm... yes! Sorry, mixed this question up entirely.

Last edited by Chris_B; 08-18-2010 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Misread the question!
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:14 AM   #19
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You know... For track time per dollar spent, he has a pretty good plan in place using the factory rotors he can pick up for pennies on the dollar, and spending the money saved upgrading the helmet contents
Agree 100%, assuming he hasn't already been doing so. If he has, he'll be needing better brakes down the road anyway.

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Old 08-18-2010, 10:24 AM   #20
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I was considering getting the cts-v 6 pistion front calipers but can you run the stock 4 piston on the rear when doing this swap??
Yes you can. The CTS-V rear caliper is the same as the SS rear caliper. They use the same size pad and backing plate. The ONLY reason I change the rear calipers on my Camaro was to have the colors matched to CTS-V silver. I knew that was going to have a shirt shelf life. The fronts are now gold tone after our last track session.

If you make the CTS-V front caliper swap use the CTS-V pads all around.

If you make the CTS-V swap you will have Cadillac rotors in the front and Camaro rotors in the rear.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:05 AM   #21
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I was considering getting the cts-v 6 pistion front calipers but can you run the stock 4 piston on the rear when doing this swap??
Do you mean, can the OE front caliper be used on the rear?
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:20 PM   #22
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Do you mean, can the OE front caliper be used on the rear?
No sir. This is the 'brake' down if you choose to retain the rear SS caliper. The front will have CTS-V Caliper, Pins, Clips, Pads and Rotors. The rear will have Camaro SS REAR Calipers, Pins, Clips and Rotors with CTS-V pads.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:37 PM   #23
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I was thinking about this setup also. If I went with the front cts-v setup and keep the stock rears and wanted to upgrade pads, do you just order pads for cts-v and they all swap out?
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:52 PM   #24
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You know... For track time per dollar spent, he has a pretty good plan in place using the factory rotors he can pick up for pennies on the dollar, and spending the money saved upgrading the helmet contents
This was actually my plan. Brake fluid, pads, and take-off rotors are relatively inexpensive. Four track events should cost me 2 sets of front pads, 2 sets of front rotors, 1 set of rear pads, 1 set of rear rotors, and if I change my fluid each time, 4 quarts of fluid. My cost for brake consumables here is around $600, and some of my time to do the work.

On the other hand, a big brake kit front and back is $5000. A set of front Racing Brake 2 piece rotors is $1000. And I'm assuming I'll still be going through pads/fluid like before. Maybe the rotors will last longer, but warping a $500 rotor is the same as if I warped TEN $50 rotors.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:52 PM   #25
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[QUOTE=JusticePete;2232763]No sir. This is the 'brake' down if you choose to retain the rear SS caliper. The front will have CTS-V Caliper, Pins, Clips, Pads and Rotors. The rear will have Camaro SS REAR Calipers, Pins, Clips and Rotors with CTS-V pads.[/QUOTE

didn't catch the last part of this post, that answers my question. But if we wait a little longer will the cts-v parts be Camaro Z28 parts?
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