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Old 06-05-2007, 08:43 PM   #1
beerman985
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super or turbo

wich one well make more power a superchager or a pair of turbos
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Old 06-06-2007, 12:20 AM   #2
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There's a LOT of variables here, it's hard to be that vague about it.

And saying "a pair of turbos" alone is kinda iffy. There are so many combinations of usage of forced induction, that it's not so much which makes more power, but which is the best for your application.

I'm a boost junkie, I love everything about forced induction.

Supercharges have a few different variable...depending on the style of blower you're using. Roots style, for example, offers the best low-end-instant power, but tends to be tough to make big top-end power out of (without having a ridiculous $20,000 unit).

But the generalization is, big motors that want huge torque numbers can use an easy to install and low-maintenance supercharger.

Turbos also have variables, though not as wide a spectrum of superchargers. For example, for biiiig HP numbers, you use one large turbo, but you will have no gain at all in low-end power, as a matter of fact you stand to lose low-end due to tuning for the power that it makes once it does spool up.

Using two smaller twin-turbos will likely spool up rather quickly, but you will not be able to make the power that a large single or medium supercharger can make.

Being dangerously general about it, superchargers offer instant gratification, are easy to install, and generally require no maintenance.

Turbos are more difficult to install, require oil feeds (and even a slight loss of oil spells instant death for a hot, spooled turbo), are more expensive, but offer the best efficiency gains and are infinitely interchangeable to find the set-up that best suits your needs.

I prefer turbos, personally...the sky is the limit with a turbo, once you get through the fabrication of the initial installation. You can make the most power out of a budget turbo system compared to an equally-priced supercharger, IF you know what you're doing when putting it together/tuning it.
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:56 AM   #3
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Pound for Pound of boost a turbo will make more power. S/C have an inherent parasitic loss...they require HP from your motor to spin, whereas turbos work off non-mechanical power...exhaust gases. If you want a car that basically looks and sounds stock go with a TT. If you don't mind a high rise hood and the blower whine go with a roots style blower. I would not recommend a centrifugal blower set up due to belt slipping/shredding issues and the fact that the most significant portion of the HP/TQ gain is in the top 1/3 of your RPM range.

Having had a TT car I can tell you that they are as tame as a stocker and completely undetectable...until you step on it. I had a guy on Kawasaki R900 pull up at a light and gun it...want to play. I gave him the nod. He dug me out of the hole for the first 150 feet at which time I reeled him in and changed from the far right lane to the far left lane. He was in the center lane and about that time he started looking back over his right should to see how far back I was just as I blew past him on the left. When we got to the next light the guy was just shaking his head in disbelief. We entered a six lane divided hwy (3X3) and did a couple of roll ons from 60MPH. I put 20 cars on him each time up to about 175MPH.

P.S. - I didn't do this regularly, nor do I recommend it. At the time the streets were empty...just me and him.

Also, there are several TT kits out there that will give you in the neighborhood of 600RWHP for less than $9000 professionally installed and tuned.
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:30 PM   #4
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damn that is pretty BA smoken a CR in a drag.? what kind were u doing this in. i race auto cross and just got a honda and thanking about maken a tuner out of. i beat a kawasaki zr 100 (i thank that was what it was) in an auto cross race usen a vette.
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Old 06-06-2007, 08:35 PM   #5
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I'll chime in here...Personally I prefer N/A, naturally aspirated, but if I had to chose, I'd probably go super - just because it's easier to install and is cheap. If I was serious about my car, and was going to track race it everyday, I'd DEFINITLY go turbo. but like I said, all your everyday street-racer needs is a super (according to me )
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:13 PM   #6
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"offer the best efficiency gains"

Turbos are awesome. The sound they make, the fact that nobody knows they are there until the engine rev's.... Super chargers suck.. they suck down your mileage because they are constantly needing power to be worked. and can only go as fast as the engine. because of the belt drive.

Not saying turbo's don't have their draw backs. but i'll take one any day.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:27 PM   #7
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So would I, I've just heard, they're a bite in the ass to install...
Correct me, please....
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:08 PM   #8
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yea i helped a friend put a kit in his civic we had to take off the hood, fenders and dril a hole for a oil line in the pan for the turbo.He got 113 hp at 5500 rpm. and i was a pain in the ass to install as ul said
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:15 PM   #9
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yea i helped a friend put a kit in his civic we had to take off the hood, fenders and dril a hole for a oil line in the pan for the turbo.He got 113 hp at 5500 rpm. and i was a pain in the ass to install as ul said
I have 113 hp with my front 2 cylinders alone!!! N/A!!! hahah
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
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I have 113 hp with my front 2 cylinders alone!!! N/A!!! hahah
Front two cyllinders alone huh...you should be proud! lol

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yea i helped a friend put a kit in his civic we had to take off the hood, fenders and dril a hole for a oil line in the pan for the turbo.He got 113 hp at 5500 rpm. and i was a pain in the ass to install as ul said
Really, a civic only got 113 hp turboed?:eek: Oh...right! That's why I don't buy them! Almost forgot, silly me.
And that's what I thought. I don't want to be touching my fenders, or drilling holes. Give me a belt and some bolts, and a 400hp N/A fire-breather, and I'll teach those turbos a lesson they won't soon forget.
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:42 PM   #11
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he has 324 horspower out of the car and well make a 1/4 in about 13 sec with nos
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:24 AM   #12
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Turbos and S/C'ers are the bomb. If I had a choice, I'd probably go w/ a turbo. Although I've ridden in an 01 TA S/C'ed. I talked about that before...it was awesome. He's the guy that broke his crank. Yeah...I don't care. I'd put in a turbo OR a S/C'er in a split second. That would be an extra...what...125hp depending on size of turbo? Hell YEAH!
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:33 AM   #13
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If nothing else mattered like emissions qualifications or difficulty of install or any thing like that, turbo would be the way to go.

Since all of that is a factor I prefer to be twin screwed.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:17 AM   #14
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I'm a KISS kind of guy. Keep it simple stupid. NA means less math and less stuff to break. Power wise though you can't beat a turbo. Even nitrous has a tough time making as much power as a turbo.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerman985 View Post
damn that is pretty BA smoken a CR in a drag.? what kind were u doing this in. i race auto cross and just got a honda and thanking about maken a tuner out of. i beat a kawasaki zr 100 (i thank that was what it was) in an auto cross race usen a vette.
2002 Z06 with an LPE Stage II Twin Turbo....600+RWHP/RWTQ.

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Old 06-07-2007, 10:52 PM   #16
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I have 113 hp with my front 2 cylinders alone!!! N/A!!! hahah
Quote:
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Front two cyllinders alone huh...you should be proud! lol

Really, a civic only got 113 hp turboed?:eek: Oh...right! That's why I don't buy them! Almost forgot, silly me.
And that's what I thought. I don't want to be touching my fenders, or drilling holes. Give me a belt and some bolts, and a 400hp N/A fire-breather, and I'll teach those turbos a lesson they won't soon forget.
believe me... I am.


X2

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he has 324 horspower out of the car and well make a 1/4 in about 13 sec with nos
423hp/431tq - N/A 1/4 = 12.01 w/o nos
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:53 PM   #17
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yupp... the Z06's were bad assed even back then.

The home of the fastest LS1 is Hardcore Motor Sports in Michigan, they use turbos.

If you do a super charger or turbo right your going to intercool it which means taking a lot of that crap off any way. New injectors, new or additional fuel pump. would hope at that point you would want to go for some chassis stiffening because you push too much the cars bend. Yes, it's more work to install a turbo. You need to install new headers, and an oil line to the turbo. where you have to real careful with the oil line, drilling a hole and tapping it can be bad if you let any shavings get in it. don't you have to do that on a center fugal super charger too?

if you just wanna say "umm yeah i got boost" or "i can beat your stock car any day" fine. but if you want a screaming street machine that sounds cool as hell... you go turbo. in the end it really is just prefrence. as there are some very impressive super charger cars out there too.
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:40 AM   #18
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Beerman:

Just for kicks here a link to my TT Vette Dyno Pull:

http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/show...cat=500&page=1

There was no Turbo Lag. By 4000rpm you had almost 550 RWTQ and slightly over 400 RWHP on a dyno. On the street it hits even harder b/c of the clean air being pushed through the intercoolers.

If you are interested in comparing set ups, talk to as many people as you can and look at dyno graphs. Peak HP means nothing....How much area is under the curve is what matters...the sooner and smoother you are into power the better.

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Old 06-08-2007, 10:52 AM   #19
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Beautiful set-up JW.
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:35 AM   #20
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Nice setup.. turbos rule!
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Old 06-09-2007, 12:05 PM   #21
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Thx guys.

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Old 07-03-2007, 10:58 AM   #22
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A couple of examples of what a Twin Turbo can do:



http://www.torquenstein.net/movies/i...s_JoesGTTT.wmv

The second one is long but worth the watch. Also there is some bad language so not work friendly / or kid friendly.

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Old 07-03-2007, 04:27 PM   #23
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well its gotta be a positive displacement blower (roots style) not really a big turbo fan because I look at it like this. SC, and turbo are both the same thing. air pums, turbo's are too difficult to build, squeezing exhaust manifold, external wastegate, turbo, intake, intercooler piping and downpipe elbow under the hood and once you've got the thing in then comes the tuning. cant forget about getting a great boot controller because turbocharger systems reference their boost levels based on outside air conditions, care must be taken to ensure proper boost control under all driving conditions. Crawling through traffic on a sunny day and blasting along on a cold, rainy night are two completely different situations that can produce large differences in the amount of air a turbo machine ingests. The same precaution exists for taking a turbo car to different altitudes. then you have all the extra maint. and if you waistegate sticks shut you'll get a detonation wave that will destroy your engine. and I havent even got into turbolag, boost threshold. positive displacement is the way to go, it will make a V6 feel like a V8(thats why its called positive displacement). Im not going to try to fix up anything with less than 300hp stock, so in my camaro thats already got good top end, the blower will make large amounts of low and midrange power unlike a turbo. realistically the best turbo setup and roots blower for most cars will put them around the same HP. usually the turbo up by 10-15hp. at that point its down to who is the best driver. by the way Im not a turbo hater my uncle fabs turbo systems for a lot of Fbodys, and stangs. and they are bad ass untill something goes wrong. and a blower is nearly maint. free.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:19 PM   #24
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now see, I agree with you 100%, but I've heard that the maintinance deal was opposite what you say...not questioning you, just the facts...

And not for anything, but in a drag - wouldn't a supercharger (against a turbo with same boost) win 90% of the time...that whole instant power thing...
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:41 PM   #25
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now see, I agree with you 100%, but I've heard that the maintinance deal was opposite what you say...not questioning you, just the facts...

And not for anything, but in a drag - wouldn't a supercharger (against a turbo with same boost) win 90% of the time...that whole instant power thing...

yeah the turbo requires maint. thats why when you find one for cheap on ebay in small print it will say "needs rebuild, or replace internals" roots blower usually doesn't require any oil pan replacement or tapping and, the supplied blower is self-contained and retains OEM-level reliability All engine tuning has been completed in-house and there is no need for you to do any tweaking or tuning on your own. so nearly maint. free.

as for a drag between SC and turbo. Ill always favor the blower...but at the same time there are a lot of variables with turbos and you might find yourself bitting off more than you can chew. blowers do have the "instant power thing on its side" its like displacement on demand. blowers will always shovel the same amount of air relative to the engine, even low in the rev range. Its like a low RPM response. turbos do have a boost threshold that people incorrectly call turbo lag, which dosent help in a drag. but if your pockets are deep enough banks has a turbo that nearly eliminates it...nearly. Ive seen a 69 camaro w/ top of the line blower beat a 800 hp twin turbo supra.
I know a guy in chicago with a 06 nissan fairlady with a stillen stage 4 blower that will destroy nearly everything out there.
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