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#1 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Drives: 2010 SS & 2008 C6 Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 1,820
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LS3 goes 11`s Bonestock!
Hi guys, I am planning on getting a Camaro, but currently I have an 08 Corvette(primarily the wife`s). I just wanted to share how great the LS3 is. I sold my 06 Vette and bought this 08 and lets just stay my best bolton (headers, CAI, tune) time in my prev 06 LS2 was 11.98, Bonestock this LS3 went 11.80@118.82, almost 119 through an auto!
Here`s a link to the thread w/ timeslips, plus there is an aewsome vid of me spanking a bonestock 2008 GT-500 ![]() http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...lus-a-vid.html Here is a link to the Corvette fastest page and you will see the bonstock times, I`ll also copy and paste it: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...lenge-179.html THE LIST Regarding correction factors: Times are received from all over the country and are not corrected. Because track and weather conditions vary, this list ranking does not, and can not, identify the fastest cars or drivers in any particular order. It only lists the recorded times, regardless of conditions, in order from quickest to slowest. In cases where ET is the same, the higher MPH determines list order. ________________________________________ ________________________________________ _______ NEW or IMPROVED ELASPED TIMES 7.65 @ 93.64 C5Pilot 11.87 @ 120.02 C5Pilot 7.35 @ 95.10 Joe_G 12.10 @ 117.60 Dingrao 11.51 @ 122.72 James1990 Showroom Stock 11.71 @ 119.94 - AndrewZPSU - 08 M6 - (2590) 11.80 @ 118.82 - Gmrulz - 08 A6 Z51, Npp - (3482) 12.10 @ 117.60 - Dingrao - 08 A6 - (3567) 12.16 @ 116.54 - Vinsane112 - 08 A6 2.73 - (2744) 12.17 @ 116.80 - Pettvette - 08 A6 - (3290) 12.18 @ 117.72 - Hardhattg - 08 Z51 M6 - (2690) 12.21 @ 115.45 - LS1LT1 - 06 A6 - (1282) 12.23 @ 115.58 - 06C6FVR - 06 Z51 M6 - (337) 12.23 @ 112.86 - 940CACC - 08 Z51 A6 - (2880) 12.27 @ 118.66 - EZ28 - 08 Z51 M6 NPP - (3251) 12.31 @ 114.82 - CYA Vett - 05 F55 M6 - (679) 12.35 @ 117.47 - Bain - 08 A6 2.73 NPP - (2759) 12.38 @ 115.86 - Proney - 07 M6 - (3521) 12.40 @ 114.70 - Jschindler - 08 Z51 M6 NPP - (2138) 12.41 @ 116.15 - JTorchz06 - 09 Z51 A6 NPP - (3190) 12.41 @ 115.38 - HOXXOH - 08 A6 F55 - (2486) 12.42 @ 113.90 - DrRichie - 05 Z51 M6 12.49 @ 115.54 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 M6 - (2314) 12.49 @ 114.90 - Jschindler - 05 Z51 M6 12.53 @ 113.00 - Wicked07C6 - 07 Z51 M6 - (918) 12.54 @ 113.59 - Tony 63 Vette - 06 A6 - (1514) 12.54 @ 113.74 - Tony96LT4 - 06 Z51 A6 - (1153) 12.56 @ 113.39 - Red Sleeper - 06 A6 12.56 @ 112.00 - Orange C6 - 05 Z51 A4 - (60) 12.60 @ 114.12 - Beefcake - 08 A6 - (2882) 12.63 @ 114.88 - Prankster - 06 M6 - (1625) 12.65 @ 114.99 - PhillyLS1 - 09 M6 - (3156) 12.65 @ 111.65 - Zippin Zee - 05 Z51 M6 - (51) 12.66 @ 113.61 - CFP40 - 08 A6 2.73 npp - (2834) 12.66 @ 113.03 - Mdrrandall - 07 Z51 M6 - (1679) 12.69 @ 112.32 - Silverlx - 06 A6 - (876) 12.70 @ 112.43 - Jelsis - 06 Z51 A6 - (456) 12.70 @ 113.00 - Blackmajik - 07 A6 - (1631) 12.71 @ 111.30 - Flyin05 - 05 Z51 M6 12.71 @ 111.00 - Demented - 05 Z51 A4 12.72 @ 111.98 - SR0707 - 06 A6 12.74 @ 108.67 - Shooter 49 - 05 A4 3.15 - (39) 12.75 @ 109.25 - Ponchorello - 05 A4 3.15 - (994) 12.76 @ 112.57 - C5Pilot - 07 Z51 A6 - (907) 12.79 @ 112.17 - Jchazr - 05 Z51 M6 - (451) 12.80 @ 111.00 - SheDevilC6 - 07 Z51 A6 - (1672) 12.81 @ 112.83 - Vette-oholic - 05 Z51 M6 - (498) 12.81 @ 110.95 - SkyKing - 07 A6 F55 - (2488) 12.83 @ 109.44 - Tommy D - 05 A4 3.15 - (114) 12.84 @ 112.98 - Proney - 06 M6 12.85 @ 114.53 - Mr Z51 - 06 Z51 M6 12.93 @ 111.40 - DiggyMoe - 07 M6 - (969) 12.97 @ 108.00 - Ginny C6 - 05 F55 A4 - (60) 12.98 @ 108.00 - Tampa Vet - 05 A4 3.15 - (123) 12.99 @ 111.70 - C64ME - 05 Z51 M6 - (333) 13.04 @ 109.15 - TMyers - 06 A6 - (532) 13.05 @ 113.31 - RDunn - 06 M6 - (986) 13.10 @ 108.70 - Rothchilds - 05 F55 A4 3.15 - (1087) 13.12 @ 110.40 - JDWK - 05 Z51 M6 13.25 @ 110.60 - C6 Matt - 05 Z51 M6 - (122) 13.26 @ 108.59 - Sfadchi - 06 Z51 A6 - (888) 13.26 @ 105.30 - Joeking - 05 Z51 A4 - (661) 13.30 @ 107.00 - Shurite44 - 06 Z51 A6 - (769) 13.35 @ 108.10 - Phatpharmd - 06 A6 - (595) 13.62 @ 106.18 - Rich28 - 05 Z51 A4 External Engine Modifications (Bolt-Ons) 10.91 @ 124.14 - Dennis50NJ - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI, CB, conv, hdrs, 3.73, tune, DR - (3421) 11.25 @ 121.10 - Theofel - 08 A6 - CAI, CB, conv, hdrs, 315, tune, DR - (3525) 11.39 @ 123.33 - Jbsblownc5 - 08 M6 Z51 - CAI, CB, Hdrs, ported int, 3.73, tune, DR - (3554) 11.51 @ 122.72 - James1990 - 08 Z51 A6 Npp-CAI, cf hood Z06rear, tune, Invos - (3569) 11.55 @ 120.71 - StageIt - 08 Z51 M6 -CB, hdrs, Intake, 3.90, Et St - (3089) 11.56 @ 120.02 - Quicktime - 08 M6 - CAI, CB, Hdrs, ported int/tb, tune DR - (2409) 11.56 @ 118.82 - MCV - 08 Z51 M6 - CAI, DR - (1852) 11.68 @ 121.22 - Socalz06 - 08 A6 - CAI, hdrs, DR - (2594) 11.70 @ 118.54 - Z51 6spd - 08 Z51 A6 Npp - El wp, hdrs, tune - (2175) 11.76 @ 119.00 - NastyC6 - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI, conv, hdrs, 3.73, ported int/tb, tune 11.77 @ 121.58 - Red06vette - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, ported int/tb, tune - (2179) 11.77 @ 121.41 - XStang - 08 A6 Z51 - CAI, Tune - (2522) 11.78 @ 120.65 - HPAvette - 08 A6 - CAI Hdr tune - (3551) 11.79 @ 117.26 - 06C6FVR - 07 M6 - CAI, 3.90, Z06 Exhaust, Muff, Tune, DR - (3231) 11.80 @ 118.62 - 8850 - 08 A6 2.73 NPP - CAI, hdrs, tune - (2012) 11.81 @ 118.76 - Joe G - 05 Z51 M6 - CAI, hdrs, 3.90, ported int, tune - (1874) 11.83 @ 119.50 -LS1LT1 - 06 A6 - CAI, tune, DR - (3498) 11.87 @ 120.54 - Braciole - 07 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, port Fast, 4.10 tune, DR - (3234) 11.87 @ 120.02 - C5pilot - - 07 Z51 A6 - CAI, Hdr, P/int, Tune, Dr - (3558) 11.87 @ 112.99 - Cucchiara - 05 A4 - CAI, CB, hdrs, conv, tune, DR - (839) 11.94 @ 117.99 - JimSpeed - 06 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs - (521) 11.96 @ 118.98 - GMRULZ - 06 Z51 M6 -CAI, hdrs, ported int, bilstein shocks, tune, DR - (2163) 11.98 @ 120.04 - Rock n' Blue08 - 08 M6 -CAI, hdrs, 3.90, Xpipe Z06 muff, - (2894) 11.98 @ 116.44 - C6speedjon - 07 Z51 M6 -CAI, CB, hdrs, ported int/tb, tune DR - (1970) 11.99 @ 120.44 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, Hdr, tune, DRs - (2471) 11.99 @ 118.51 - JMT1669 - 06 A6 - CAI, CB, tune - (2176) 12.01 @ 116.00 - Mr Z51 - 06 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, ported int, tune, DR 12.03 @ 120.42 - Quikag - 08 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (2529) 12.03 @ 118.50 - Serendipity - 06 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs 12.03 @ 118.43 - Glennhl - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, hdrs, ported int, tune DRs - (2277) 12.04 @ 115.99 - Bain - 08 A6 2.73 NPP - CAI - (3529) 12.04 @ 114.01 - 06C6FVR - 06 Z51 M6 - Mufflers, tune, DR - (1301) 12.05 @ 117.02 - CYA Vett - 05 F55 M6 - Hdrs 12.08 @ 117.00 - Forrest - 06 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune, DR - (1449) 12.08 @ 115.48 - Siffert - 07 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune, DR - (304) 12.12 @ 118.06 - Badassbu - 09 A6 npp - Removed fuse - (3145) 12.13 @ 115.15 - Ben Diss -07 F55 M6- CAI, hdrs, Nitto Ivos, tune - (1919) 12.17 @ 119.00 - RHecox - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs - (1228) 12.17 @ 117.24 - QuickZilver - 08 A6 Z51 npp - Removed fuse - (3544) 12.17 @ 114.58 - C6dreamvette - 05 A4 - CAI, no muff, tune, Kdw - (2189) 12.18 @ 115.85 - Mdrrandall - 07 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB - (1822) 12.18 @ 114.00 - Toptoneone - 06 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune DR - (1824) 12.21 @ 115.14 - Shocker Racing - 05 M6 - Homemade Air filter, DR - (1323) 12.22 @ 116.70 - Ponchorello - 05 A4 3.15 - CAI, hdrs, tune - (1706) 12.26 @ 119.40 - Dstage - 06 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, Intake - (659) 12.26 @ 116.65 - Waveblaster785 - 06 Z51 A6 - CB, hdrs, Intake - (1118) 12.37 @ 117.67 - Nicodemus - 05 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, gears, tune - (368) 12.37 @ 117.17 - Airbuspilot - 08 M6 - CB - (3282) 12.37 @ 112.29 - CTVette05 - 05 A4 3.15 - CB, hdrs - (69) 12.39 @ 115.50 - Tony96 LT4 - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, TB, DR - (1473) 12.41 @ 115.40 - Icebourg - 05 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB 12.41 @ 112.07 - WS6JJP - 05 Z51 M6 - CB 12.42 @ 116.12 - YellowVette22 - 05 F55 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, DR - (393) 12.44 @ 114.34 - Mike Campbell - 06 A6 - CAI, stat - (2611) 12.46 @ 117.86 - MMartin - 08 Z51 A6 - CAI, hdrs, tune - (2910) 12.48 @ 113.00 - Demented - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI 12.49 @ 114.43 - Colinsmom - 06 A6 Z51 - CAI, CB & hdrs 12.49 @ 113.50 - 12 Oh- 06 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune, DR - (1249) 12.50 @ 118.00 - Larry Chip - 05 M6 - CAI, CB, tune - (177) 12.50 @ 115.20 - Flooznie - 05 A4 - tune - (216) 12.51 @ 113.56 - Jelsis - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI - (492) 12.52 @ 115.26 - Tony B4 - 06 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (1602) 12.53 @ 113.78 - Ultimate CC - 07 Z51 M6 - CAI - (1641) 12.54 @ 113.63 - Anky1631 - 05 M6 - CAI, CB 12.54 @ 113.24 - NineBall - 05 Z51 M6 - stat 12.55 @ 115.85 - Yell03 - 06 M6 - CAI, CB 12.55 @ 114.95 - Shurite44 - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, CB, hdrs (843) 12.55 @ 111.98 - 2003Anniversary - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI, CB, hdrs - (240) 12.57 @ 113.04 - Jschindler - 05 F55 M6 - CB - (241) 12.59 @ 114.89 - AZVette2005 - 05 Z51 M6 - CB hdrs, tune - (202) 12.59 @ 113.46 - Badassbu - 07 A6 - CAI - (1769) 12.60 @ 114.00 - SScamaro - 05 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (59) 12.63 @ 112.93 - 05Vettelag - 05 F55 A4 3.15 - CAI, cb tune 12.63 @ 112.35 - Lusky - 06 Z51 A6 - CAI, 325 tires 12.65 @ 113.70 - Hitman99 - 06 A6 - CAI, hdrs, tune 12.65 @ 111.39 - 30Milesoffshore - 05 M6 - CAI,CB, Tune - (2601) 12.68 @ 113.92 - Sditch - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI - (188) 12.71 @ 113.70 - C6Brian - 07 M6 - Tune - (1616) 12.72 @ 110.85 - AngeloC6 - 05 F55 A4 3.15 open shroud - (1654) 12.77 @ 110.18 - CMB13 - 05 Z51 M6 - CB, DR - (1269) 12.78 @ 112.50 - Dan-t - 06 A6 - tune - (1179) 12.80 @ xxx.xx - Thanos - 05 Z51 A4 - CB - (59) 12.83 @ 111.00 - TMyers - 06 A6 - CAI, tune - (768) 12.88 @ 112.50 - MickyC6 - 05 M6 - CAI, CB, tune 12.89 @ 112.57 - Bunk22 - 05 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, hdrs rockers, tune - (860) 12.89 @ 112.00 - Tom400CFI - 05 Z51 M6 - CB -(830) 12.90 @ 114.83 - Normlunt - 05 Z51 M6 - tstat - (541) 12.93 @ 110.64 - C6Vette - 05 Z51 M6 - CAI, CB, tune - (1206) 12.97 @ 111.22 - Zoli007 - 06 Z51 M6 - CB - (226) 12.97 @ 109.00 - Tsnipe11 - 05 Z51 A4 - CAI, hdrs, tune - (697) 12.99 @ 111.25 - Parkev - 05 Z51 M6 - CB - (83) 13.30 @ 110.00 - Chempowr - 05 F55 M6 - CAI, CB - (1041) high alt 13.32 @ 108.87 - CorvettePilot - 05 Z51 M6 - CB 13.33 @ 113.31 - Gaussian Mist - 08 F55 Npp M6 - Npp comander - (2706) 13.95 @ 104.94 - Fright88 - 06 A6 -CB, hdrs - (1683) high alt |
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#2 |
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Okie doke
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Just remember that the vette is a bit more aerodynamic as well
.. I think low 12's stock is pushing it for the camaro .. (deep down I hope it does though .. lol) ..Anyway .. great time with the vette !!! Crowley
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#3 |
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50.335252,6.947103
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ahh another mustang destroyed.
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#4 |
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Camaro & Stang Enthusiast
Drives: 2011 Mustang 5.0 in Kona Blue Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 4,759
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Yeah the Vette has a lot better aerodynamics which would add to your calculations a few tenths if not more. We shall see as I hope you are right..
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Bought my Camaro from Eric Hall(817) 421-7266
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#5 |
![]() Drives: 2007 Z06 Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Swansea IL
Posts: 727
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Great times; finally the LS3 C6's are posting C5 Z06 times. Many have suspected that TM and the IRS was holding back the C6 and it would take time to master launching it.
Good show. |
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#6 |
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Petro-sexual
Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 12,949
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MAN! Look at all those A6 times! An M6 is the quickest on the list, but look how many slushboxes follow it! My brother said he's seen what he could swear was a bone-stock LS3 run a high-11 but this pretty much confirms that. Just think what a little tuning to the TM and some DRs would do...
Great job
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"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
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#7 | |||||
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The Jalopy Jedi
Drives: anything I can get my hands on Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 22,663
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Quote:
is that the weight of the cars next to the names/setup? if so, the one on the top of the "stock" list is also super light.... wonder what he took out of the car? maybe he had his 6yr old drive for him....lol
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Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
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#8 |
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That can't be the weight because there are some that are only like (240) the like.
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We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
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#9 | |
![]() Drives: 2007 Z06 Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Swansea IL
Posts: 727
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"A copy of your entire time slip posted to the thread as in post # _____ " Tom |
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#10 | |||||
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The Jalopy Jedi
Drives: anything I can get my hands on Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 22,663
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Quote:
still all around great numbers... and one great driver on the list...lol
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Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
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#11 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Drives: 2010 SS & 2008 C6 Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 1,820
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Thanks everybody. I think the aerodynamics of the vette vs the camaro at least in the 1/4 will play more to mph than ET. Although I could see the Areo making maybe .05 to .10 ET diff, but most likely 3mph diff. 1/8th mile I doubt you see any ET diff due to the aero.
My plans are since the wife has claimed the Vette, is for me a 2SS, MN6, Procharger, headers w/ high flow cats, electric cutouts, some sort of catback, mild cam, drag radials, and I hope to run high 10`s w/ this combo. |
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#12 |
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Yes, that's my real name.
Drives: 2005 LS2 600hp GTO Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ventura, ca.
Posts: 996
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I'm hunting for 10s myself...
I hope they pan out that fast... more fun for me.
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Magnuson 112HH supercharger at 7.5 psi (Virtual 9.0 liter) 600hp 1 of 2 torrid/red int /A4/05 555r 275/40/R17's Nitto Extreme Drags 1.7 60 ft Car runs high 11's No other mods. I got the first 112HH Magnuson blower ported for a GTO. Now it appears it was also one of the last....
![]() http://www.ribbonprinting.com http://www.personalizedawarenessribbons.com |
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#13 |
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Enlightened
Drives: Nothing Currently Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,300
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If the Camaro SS can't run at least a high twelve stock, then I will personally go out and buy a six cylinder Mustang. No worries guys.
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If you believe it is your right to speak freely no matter the content, relevance, or intelligence of statement, then it is my duty to the powers that be to set you straight.
People have to talk about something just to keep their voice boxes in working order. So they'll have good voice boxes in case there's ever anything really meaningful to say. Kurt Vonnegut |
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#14 | |
![]() ![]() Drives: 2010 IBM SS/RS Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 810
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i posted this vid in another thread, but check it out. stock 08 ls3 vette running 11.7 quarter mile
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2SS/RS, 6spd manual, IBM w/black leather
Blacked out tail/signal lights, 5% rear tint, 20% sides, Dynomax Bullet exhaust, Barton short throw shifter, Clear Image offroad downpipes |
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#15 |
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Resident Disciple
Drives: 2010 CTS-V 6MN '98 Camaro SS (Sold) Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 489
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FWIW, Motor Trend's test of the G8 GXP shows a 0-60 time of 4.5 sec with a 1/4 mi. time of 13.0.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html Best regardSS, Elie
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2010 Cadillac CTS-V 6MN Thunder Gray
1998 Camaro SS # C079 SOLD |
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#16 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: T-Town, Alabama
Posts: 2,164
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Ok,
Im not much of an aftermarket parts guru, so could someone explain the following terms? CAI = cold air intake CB = ??? conv = ??? hdrs = headers 3.73 = ??? DR = ??? ported int = ??? port Fast = ??? P/int = ??? Kdw = ??? TB = ??? tstat = ??? Npp = ??? Maybe I just dont belong here. |
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#17 |
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Hello!
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CAI = cold air intake
CB = Cat-back exhaust conv = ??? hdrs = headers 3.73 = Rear gears DR = Drag radials ported int = ported intake port Fast = ??? P/int = ??? Kdw = ??? TB = throttle body (larger or ported I would assume) tstat = cool termastat (cooler intake temps) Npp = ??? That's all I know... |
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#18 |
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GMRULZ you had a killer light and the GT was way asleep at the wheel. Great job spanking that GT500. That video will make anyone a believer in the LS3.
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#19 |
![]() Drives: '02 Impreza 2.5RS Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 304
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#20 | |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Drives: 2010 SS & 2008 C6 Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 1,820
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port Fast = Ported F.A.S.T. intake p/int= ported intake again? Npp= GM performance exhaust that has bypass valves that open up under WOT providing 6 addnl hp over the base exhaust Timberline, I did have some really good lights that day. Thanks.Wm Holden, I hope w/ both find them brother! |
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#21 |
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Snark snark snark
Drives: RX350 Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 3L Hell
Posts: 556
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I still call the Camaro in at 12.8 with an amazing driver, at Atco, on a day when the DA is -3500 with 0 humidity and the track is prepped perfectly.
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What is this, CorvetteForum Lite?
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#22 | |
![]() Drives: '02 Impreza 2.5RS Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 304
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but I am still hoping for an unrealistic 12.6-12.8 with a slightly better than average driver. I'm still confident that no matter what times the Camaro SS performs, it will still out handle, perform, and look beter than the Mustang for a good while.
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#23 |
![]() Drives: 06 GTO, 06 Z06, 06 X5 4.4 Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SC
Posts: 48
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I know someone who ran 11.7 bone stock. Bad ass! With a tune, headers, and a cam he is into the 10s.
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'06 GTO M6
'06 Z06 ![]() |
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#24 |
![]() Drives: 2007 Z06 Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Swansea IL
Posts: 727
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#25 | ||||
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The Jalopy Jedi
Drives: anything I can get my hands on Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 22,663
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nuh uh.... this is the internetz..... anythings possible
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Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
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