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Old 12-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #26
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I own a 2008 HHR SS Turbo. It's a quick little car, but you have to beat the crap out of it to go. And it's only 3280 pounds. The V6 Camaro will be around 3800 pounds. I'm only getting 18mpg. I don't feel a 4cyl is a good idea for a Camaro. I think it would be disasterous!!
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:39 PM   #27
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y'all remember the Iron Duke Camaros don't ya? well other people sure will when they hear '4 cylinder'
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:18 PM   #28
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y'all remember the Iron Duke Camaros don't ya? well other people sure will when they hear '4 cylinder'
I have a special name for the Iron D.

The turbo 4 would not get mpg that much better than the V6, when you factor in the additional weight of a Camaro compared to a Solstice or Cobalt SS.

Don't expect to see the Iron D.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:48 PM   #29
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It's a nice feeling to finally join a forum with fellow car lovers that actually examine the situation and give a semi-educated answer instead of flaming a post.

As i said previously it would be great to have the turbo 4, and from the sounds of it, it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference as to what i expected. Pardon my lack of knowledge on such subjects. However, in the near future i see hybrids becoming a big factor in car manufacturer line-ups (i believe GM has been quoted as saying they'll have 15 by i think 2012, not positive on the date). I Guess they could do a hybrid Camaro, however i have a couple concerns such as power (yes coming from the guy that just suggested a turbo 4, my apologies) giving it a puny v-6 and the fact that after X number of years you have to replace the battery on the hybrid (they aren't cheap) and on an already expensive car (probably looking at at least $32K CAD), with highway driving that isn't amazing, I'm thinking thats not a good choice in my books (feel free to correct me).

Which leads me to my next point, a Turbo diesel whether it be v-4 or v-6. From what i've read on them they have good all around fuel economy (both highway and city). But the main thing that i've seen is the turbo diesel has ALOT of torque compared to hp (again not sure why, please feel free to fill me in). I recently test drove a VW clean Diesel TDI, and it pulled away from a stoplight like a v-8, not kidding, it was probably the most fun i've had in a v-4 in a while (tho i like my cobalt). Of course this is all defendant on how good GM's diesel engines hold up, i believe the new cruze has one, lets hope for good things.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:07 PM   #30
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I own a 2008 HHR SS Turbo. It's a quick little car, but you have to beat the crap out of it to go. And it's only 3280 pounds. The V6 Camaro will be around 3800 pounds. I'm only getting 18mpg. I don't feel a 4cyl is a good idea for a Camaro. I think it would be disasterous!!
I have posted my theory on this before, but you have confirmed it.

Horsepower takes fuel, weight takes more fuel.

They were running test Holden Commodores (Un-rebadged Pontiac G8) with the turbo 4, but hopefully they'll forget it.

ps - Watching Jay Leno with Brian Williams. Jay drove his new ZR1 today, Brian was checking it out. Brian drove a Mustang GT. Jay snickered.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #31
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ps - Watching Jay Leno with Brian Williams. Jay drove his new ZR1 today, Brian was checking it out. Brian drove a Mustang GT. Jay snickered.
Good find, im watching it right now, just gotta switch the auxilary back to tv.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:30 PM   #32
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It's a nice feeling to finally join a forum with fellow car lovers that actually examine the situation and give a semi-educated answer instead of flaming a post.

As i said previously it would be great to have the turbo 4, and from the sounds of it, it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference as to what i expected. Pardon my lack of knowledge on such subjects. However, in the near future i see hybrids becoming a big factor in car manufacturer line-ups (i believe GM has been quoted as saying they'll have 15 by i think 2012, not positive on the date). I Guess they could do a hybrid Camaro, however i have a couple concerns such as power (yes coming from the guy that just suggested a turbo 4, my apologies) giving it a puny v-6 and the fact that after X number of years you have to replace the battery on the hybrid (they aren't cheap) and on an already expensive car (probably looking at at least $32K CAD), with highway driving that isn't amazing, I'm thinking thats not a good choice in my books (feel free to correct me).

Which leads me to my next point, a Turbo diesel whether it be v-4 or v-6. From what i've read on them they have good all around fuel economy (both highway and city). But the main thing that i've seen is the turbo diesel has ALOT of torque compared to hp (again not sure why, please feel free to fill me in). I recently test drove a VW clean Diesel TDI, and it pulled away from a stoplight like a v-8, not kidding, it was probably the most fun i've had in a v-4 in a while (tho i like my cobalt). Of course this is all defendant on how good GM's diesel engines hold up, i believe the new cruze has one, lets hope for good things.

Thoughts?
Glad to have you here, too.

Check out the Lexus GS450H. Bad-ass hybrid. First performance oriented one.

Fact is, we're going electric. They are just getting going with the newer advanced technology, it will only advance with time.

Diesel. Yep. Plan on seeing more clean turbo diesels. Only reason there's not more now, is we are still trying to forget the smelly, noisy, piggy diesels of yesteryear.

Very intersting about your test drive of the VW. I need to do that.

As an LS3 lover, there is NO replacement for gobs of instant torque.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:40 PM   #33
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I need to do that.

As an LS3 lover, there is NO replacement for gobs of instant torque.
I've only driven one vette b4, i believe it was 2003 had a bit wider of a turning radius than i was used to, however, lots of fun on the highway.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:51 PM   #34
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It's a cool concept, but yeah from all the discussion we've had on it unfortunately with the weight of the Camaro, the fuel efficiency of the LNF probably would only be marginally better than the 3.6L DI VVT V6. And then it'd be slower... :(

I remember back when we were discussing this too. I was all for it until we basically had come to that conclusion. Although if it was priced at like 18-19k it'd be quite a bargain...
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:59 PM   #35
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Although if it was priced at like 18-19k it'd be quite a bargain...
Now that there would see big sales, from the prospective of a low paid college grad that'd be shopping in that market price range i'd scoop that up beats 3/4 of the other econoboxs out there.

With the way the market is going and the mass decline in car/truck sales i fear for the camaro's well being, heck, i fear for the automaker's well being as a whole.
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:04 AM   #36
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Yeah the problem with that too is that the cheapest vehicle that the LNF is in is the Cobalt SS/HHR SS. And I don't know what it is CDN $ but U.S.D the base price of an 09 Cobalt SS/TC is actually 24k....

Soo I don't even think it'd be possible for GM to even price the Camaro under 20k... Especially with all that it has. And heck when the V6 starts under what it costs for a Cobalt SS/TC, then I guess while it'd be cool, I think it's another reason why we won't be seeing the LNF in the Camaro...
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:19 AM   #37
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I don't care if they have a 4 cylinder with 4 turbos, i'll never drive one...
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:42 AM   #38
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^In my ignorance, i thought that way until I researched and found that the import crowd will never take a V6 over a turbo 4, even if the turbo 4 has slightly less power. The reason is aftermarket -- a fully built turbo 4 will take a fully built N/A V6.

I'm not saying i like the idea of a lower-powered turbo 4 over the DI V6 that's going in the 5th Gen, though. The reason I say that is because the aftermarket will support the V8 Camaro, because that's what most Camaro owners will use as a platform. In other words, Camaro owners would rather have a NA V8 at 500 rwhp than a turbo 4 at 500 rwhp. And, with very good reason that I won't get into, because that's the age-old import vs. domestic battle that's better on the streets and on the track than on some Internet message board.
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:54 AM   #39
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I have a special name for the Iron D.

The turbo 4 would not get mpg that much better than the V6, when you factor in the additional weight of a Camaro compared to a Solstice or Cobalt SS.

Don't expect to see the Iron D.
You are correct sir and who would want one anyways lol
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:56 AM   #40
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I own a 2008 HHR SS Turbo. It's a quick little car, but you have to beat the crap out of it to go. And it's only 3280 pounds. The V6 Camaro will be around 3800 pounds. I'm only getting 18mpg. I don't feel a 4cyl is a good idea for a Camaro. I think it would be disasterous!!
Dude, WTF are you doing to that car? I have a Supercharged Cobalt (only 200 lbs less thatn yours) and regularly get 27 around town, and as high as 37 on the highway (generally around 32 though). Do you just keep it at redline all day?
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:40 AM   #41
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^In my ignorance, i thought that way until I researched and found that the import crowd will never take a V6 over a turbo 4, even if the turbo 4 has slightly less power. The reason is aftermarket -- a fully built turbo 4 will take a fully built N/A V6.

I'm not saying i like the idea of a lower-powered turbo 4 over the DI V6 that's going in the 5th Gen, though. The reason I say that is because the aftermarket will support the V8 Camaro, because that's what most Camaro owners will use as a platform. In other words, Camaro owners would rather have a NA V8 at 500 rwhp than a turbo 4 at 500 rwhp. And, with very good reason that I won't get into, because that's the age-old import vs. domestic battle that's better on the streets and on the track than on some Internet message board.


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You are correct sir and who would want one anyways lol
I'd take a LNF powered Camaro if it cost under 20k.... But it wouldn't and the LNF isn't going into the Camaro anyways...

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Dude, WTF are you doing to that car? I have a Supercharged Cobalt (only 200 lbs less thatn yours) and regularly get 27 around town, and as high as 37 on the highway (generally around 32 though). Do you just keep it at redline all day?
I have the same ride as you and I don't get quite as well as you but I seem to average 23mpg's city, and around 33-36mpg's highway.

The HHR SS should be getting better gas mileage in terms of the LNF being more fuel efficent over our LSJ's... But I got 18 city before although I wasn't driving conservatively...

I don't think there's really any more point in arguing in this however because the LNF won't be going in the Camaro. It could find its way in the Pontiac G8 but it's not going into the Camaro and I'm sure GM has come to this realization way before we have for the sake of the reasons I and everyone else has explained.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:48 AM   #42
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Hey guys,
Sure the camaro isn't what some people call a commuting car but why not? I want something that looks amazing and delivers a fun ride with a low gas price t
If i get the camaro in the near future it will be my daily driver, I just can't afford it any other way.

We have exhausted the thought of a 4 cyl camaro, and quite frankly, the four cyl didn't get enough advantage over the six in mpg to justify having the option.
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:19 AM   #43
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4.5L V-8 turbo diesel....


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GM's already done calculations, if not tried it. I remember Bob Lutz saying that there was barely any improvement in fuel economy, just a much more sluggish Camaro.
Right. If memory serves, they said that the gearing was configured in a way that the turbo was always spooled....that really counteracts any fuel-saving benefits...

However, they ARE looking at ways to make it more fuel efficient. They're coming out with a new version of the Ecotec line for the next-gen Equinox...they say it will provide class-leading fuel efficiency. And the Equinox is no lightweight. So it looks promising.

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I cant picture a camaro w/o at least a V6. Do they have AFM for the V6? Drop down to 3 cylinders while cruising? Might bring up the gas mileage.
They have AFM on their pushrod V6's...but those are being phased out in favor of the newer OHC 3.6L engines. And they don't currently have any AFM system for OHC engines.:(

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it would be harder to balance the rotating assy deactivating 3 cyl on a v-6

id say you could do 2 at most
Honda has some 6-4-3 cylinder deactivation...but I heard it rattles like a mother...
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:28 PM   #44
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^In my ignorance, i thought that way until I researched and found that the import crowd will never take a V6 over a turbo 4, even if the turbo 4 has slightly less power. The reason is aftermarket -- a fully built turbo 4 will take a fully built N/A V6.

I'm not saying i like the idea of a lower-powered turbo 4 over the DI V6 that's going in the 5th Gen, though. The reason I say that is because the aftermarket will support the V8 Camaro, because that's what most Camaro owners will use as a platform. In other words, Camaro owners would rather have a NA V8 at 500 rwhp than a turbo 4 at 500 rwhp. And, with very good reason that I won't get into, because that's the age-old import vs. domestic battle that's better on the streets and on the track than on some Internet message board.

one big reason to have 500hp n/a V8 over turbo 4 500hp is the torque. something EVERYONE forgets about. torque is what moves the car, hp is just how fast/easy you can use that torque.

the guy that made a comment about the diesel, how it shot off like a v-8. diesels make donkey ballsacks full of torque. not always the highest hp, but they make power regardless.

GM's new 4.5L diesel V-8 for instance makes over 500 ft lbs of torqe and 300+ hp. it would be perfect to throw in this car. (tho i imagine it will make its way into the Ute first. but its the same dimensions as a traditional small block so the engine/vehicle combos are near limitless that this motor could be put into.

and the fact that it makes such a large amount of torque is what helps diesels get better gas mileage. the lower rpm you have to spin a motor to move, the better off you are. instead of like 4 bangers and the like that dont get into their power band untill higher rpms and dont have the torque to move larger cars.

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Honda has some 6-4-3 cylinder deactivation...but I heard it rattles like a mother...
shakes, rattles, and pisses you off.
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Old 12-05-2008, 06:12 PM   #45
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You are correct sir and who would want one anyways lol
Not I. lol

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^In my ignorance, i thought that way until I researched and found that the import crowd will never take a V6 over a turbo 4, even if the turbo 4 has slightly less power. The reason is aftermarket -- a fully built turbo 4 will take a fully built N/A V6.

Hmmm, can you say Hyundai Genesis Coupe? They actually provided pre-production units to tuners for development, so the products are ready at launch.

Oh, which model did Hyundai provide? The Turbo 4.

I still won't do a 4. Of course I won't do V6 either. lol
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:15 PM   #46
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diesels make donkey ballsacks full of torque.


That's quote worthy right there...

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Not I. lol




Hmmm, can you say Hyundai Genesis Coupe? They actually provided pre-production units to tuners for development, so the products are ready at launch.

Oh, which model did Hyundai provide? The Turbo 4.

I still won't do a 4. Of course I won't do V6 either. lol
Well Ford did it with the 84-86 Mustang.... Remember the SVO Mustang????
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:39 PM   #47
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[QUOTE=
Which leads me to my next point, a Turbo diesel whether it be v-4 or v-6. From what i've read on them they have good all around fuel economy (both highway and city). But the main thing that i've seen is the turbo diesel has ALOT of torque compared to hp (again not sure why, please feel free to fill me in). I recently test drove a VW clean Diesel TDI, and it pulled away from a stoplight like a v-8, not kidding, it was probably the most fun i've had in a v-4 in a while (tho i like my cobalt). Of course this is all defendant on how good GM's diesel engines hold up, i believe the new cruze has one, lets hope for good things.
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Diesel make a ton of LB-FT(torque), because they generally have long strokes due to the fact the use friction generated by high compression to ignite the fuel the burn. That also why they don't rev to the moon. Diesel would be cool, but you would have to change the average American in think so. If you want to know what diesel can do look at the Audi R10. Tons of things can be done not to mention you can burn vegetable oil instead of diesel. A lot of high 12 sec 7000 lbs diesel trucks that all they due is change the engine program.

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Old 12-05-2008, 07:57 PM   #48
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[
Quote:
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Diesel make a ton of LB-FT(torque), because they generally have long strokes due to the fact the use friction and compression to ignite the fuel the burn. That also why they don't rev to the moon. Diesel would be cool, but you would have to change the average American in think so. If you want to know what diesel can do look at the Audi R10. Tons of things can be done not to mention you can burn vegetable oil instead of diesel. Alot of high 12 sec 7000 lbs diesel trucks that all they due is change the engine program.



turn up the boost, throw some propane injection in there to boot, and smoke the tires all day long.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:04 PM   #49
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Don't expect to see the Iron D.
oh i don't. especially with all things pointing to not having any gains over the V6
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:42 PM   #50
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[brainfood]

There's also a ~250hp 3.0L DI V6 in existence somewhere....

[/brainfood]
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