Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Grabiak Performance Center
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion

General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion Come chat about other cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-02-2010, 07:19 AM   #51
Hylton


 
Hylton's Avatar
 
Drives: fanboys and ass kissers crazy.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 7,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
And by the way, GM market share on the coasts drops to near 10% from the 40 plus % in the heartland. Explain that.............I can't.
Sure.....

That is partly due to GMs archaic global identity strategy (a Buick here is an Opel there syndrome). There still seems to be (amongst the old guard at GM) a mentality where "the 4 core brands" cannot be implemented throughout the world because Opel, Vauxhaul and Holden have such strong brand recognition in their respective markets.

Well guess what happens when an immigrant comes to the US or Canada seeking a better life for their family (500,000 refugees a year become permanent residents in US and Canada)? They end up buying something they are familiar with. Do they know Opel? Yes they do because Opel is well known in the poor countries. Do they know Buick? Nope. Do they know Toyota and Ford? Damn right they do and so familiarity plays a strong part in their decision making.

Get your market research folks to give you the numbers about how many new immigrants buy GM and post it back on this thread.

I've been saying for years that all of GM's brands should be global brands. You've owned Opel and Vauxhaul for 80 years or so and you still haven't had a CEO who has the testical fortitude to develop a good M&A strategy for those companies which will protect their goodwill that they've developed over the years.

Can't be done? BS - you just have to look at the technology world for proof. Companies like Microsoft, Intel, AT&T and HP (all American btw) have been gobbling up companies while still being able to retain the customer base of the acquired. For example, Digital (DEC) was bought out by Compaq which was later bought out by HP. Everything from customer retention to company culture was thought through before the transaction occured. That's just good management using a well thought out M&A stategy.

You guys have no idea about the BILLIONS you are losing in overhead and the BILLIONS you are losing in lost sales due to not having the 4 core brands globally and nothing else.
__________________
"BBOMG - More than just a car show.... It's an experience!"
Hylton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 11:19 AM   #52
ffrcobra_65
Account Suspended
 
Drives: SuperCharged 2SS/RS IOM MN6
Join Date: May 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 5,101
Alfie,

Good points and argument. But the bigger problem is WALMART!
ffrcobra_65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 12:12 PM   #53
Muscle Master
SS Lightning
 
Muscle Master's Avatar
 
Drives: An SRT8
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cinnaminson, NJ
Posts: 2,306
But here's another factor:

People such as myself like to buy what they "like"

For example.. I like the E-class AMG over the CTS-V a lil bit exterior wise and if I could afford it I'll buy it

Not saying I don't like the V cause I love it.. but different stroke for different folks people buy what they like or what appeal to them

And for the record.. I want both!!
__________________

Quote:
The first rule of modding something that's not American is to not try to compete with modded V8 cars that are American. Really, they can run insane power with little investment. It's not even a fair fight.
Camaro 2SS RS, IBM, White Rally Stripes, custom fuel door: Status: going to the dealer: soon
Muscle Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 02:04 PM   #54
alfie43

 
alfie43's Avatar
 
Drives: S/C 2SS/RS Camaro-6M-VicRed
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alfie (Mariano) lives in Shelby Twp, Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,118
Send a message via ICQ to alfie43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
Our current President after reading this picks up the phone and makes a reservation for his wife and family in Spain in the most expensive hotel and invited 40 of her friends to tag along, so he can get a nice round of golf in peace away from the family.
This is a forum about the 5th Gen Camaro and other automobile related subjects.

This is not a forum for political commentary, even if it's intelligent, well thought out commentary. There are great political forums for that.

Certainly, this it is not a place for political haters and their cheap shots. I'm sure there are forums for that nonsense also.

Alfie
__________________
alfie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 02:24 PM   #55
a_Username


 
a_Username's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 3,893
If this isn't a political forum, then there is no need of bringing up "Canadian Built Camaro, Foreign Cars and US Jobs." The thread title is just asking for a politically motivated opinion.
a_Username is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 03:52 PM   #56
jrc1122

 
Drives: 2012 Mustang GT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Abilene, TX
Posts: 1,358
It appears that we have a lot of folks who were sleeping, or skipping class when it came to Economics.

But then turn around and pretend to have a solid understanding of it.
__________________
2012 Mustang GT Premium
Performance White
6-speed Manual
jrc1122 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 04:09 PM   #57
bigearl
 
bigearl's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 Camaro 2lt
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Napa
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
This is a forum about the 5th Gen Camaro and other automobile related subjects.

This is not a forum for political commentary, even if it's intelligent, well thought out commentary. There are great political forums for that.

Certainly, this it is not a place for political haters and their cheap shots. I'm sure there are forums for that nonsense also.

Alfie
This whole thread is political commentary. It was designed to politely tell some one that by buying a Hyundai, they killed the hopes and dreams of every American and likely killed a few baby kittens.

The thread that started this was apolitical and put in the correct place (other vehicle discussions). The response to that thread WAS political. And when the response got too off topic a new political thread was built.
__________________
-----------
Sharks have a week dedicated to me.
bigearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 05:16 PM   #58
alfie43

 
alfie43's Avatar
 
Drives: S/C 2SS/RS Camaro-6M-VicRed
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alfie (Mariano) lives in Shelby Twp, Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,118
Send a message via ICQ to alfie43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigearl View Post
This whole thread is political commentary. It was designed to politely tell some one that by buying a Hyundai, they killed the hopes and dreams of every American and likely killed a few baby kittens.

The thread that started this was apolitical and put in the correct place (other vehicle discussions). The response to that thread WAS political. And when the response got too off topic a new political thread was built.

It was designed to politely tell some one that by buying a Hyundai, they killed the hopes and dreams of every American and likely killed a few baby kittens.


This is a joke..right? My wise old father once told me, "Silence is the best response to a foolish statement." I guess I should heed his advice, but here it goes.

From Webster:
po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\

1: of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3: organized in governmental terms <political units>
4: involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system <political prisoners>
— po·lit·i·cal·ly\-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
__________________
alfie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2010, 05:55 PM   #59
bigearl
 
bigearl's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 Camaro 2lt
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Napa
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
It was designed to politely tell some one that by buying a Hyundai, they killed the hopes and dreams of every American and likely killed a few baby kittens.

Since this whole topic was a response to someone who had already bought the car- it was too late- there really wasn't anything to be gained except to make him feel bad. There have been enough buy American threads to not have to start a new one and reference it from within the poor kid's thread.

This is a joke..right? My wise old father once told me, "Silence is the best response to a foolish statement." I guess I should heed his advice, but here it goes.

From Webster:
po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\

1: of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3: organized in governmental terms <political units>
4: involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system <political prisoners>
— po·lit·i·cal·ly\-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
From AnotherThread:

"With all due respect, allow me to make this observation

You were out of work for 5 months last year. Most likely that was because of the loss of jobs in your local economy due to jobs being outsourced over seas.

You live down the road from Oshawa, St Catherines, and several other large auto manufacturing facilties..... and you buy a car made in Korea.

As I said, with all due respect, but is it just me, or does anyone else see something really wrong with this picture?"
----


"Before some of you jump in to remind me that the Camaro is made in Canada, read this entire post. Also, I'm not talking about patriotism. I'm not talking about restricting our free market choices. I am not anti-Asian; my father immigrated to this country from the Far-East. The quality gap is history, so that it is no longer part of the discussion. Again, my point is: It's about US JOBS. "
----

Now here's the problem. You've basically just said "I'm not about limiting your choices, but any choices other than buying American are wrong". Therefore you clearly ARE about limiting choices - you are just saying it in a friendlier way. The fact is: this got started because a person had ALREADY bought the car and you made an assumption about his last job being outsourced-which is a subject of a political nature.

From that point on this has been a plea for protectionism well veiled. The thread's title is an invitation to discuss the unfairness of the trade policies of various other countries . That's fine, just call a spade a spade. You're very well spoken and I don't disagree with much of what you're saying- I don't like the path you took to get here. And for people saying it needed to be said, it actually has been several dozen times and it always ends up with Obama this and Bush that- and it got said without busting some poor kids chops.
__________________
-----------
Sharks have a week dedicated to me.
bigearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2010, 08:10 PM   #60
The_Blur
Jayhawk USN
 
The_Blur's Avatar
 
Drives: 6.2L of AWESOME! 2011 L99 2SS
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NAS Whiting Field
Posts: 14,218
Send a message via AIM to The_Blur
I am not going to go back and edit this thread. Your political points are well-worded and not offensive. At this time, they'll stay. Let's not continue that discussion.

Instead, let's focus on economics. Let's focus on the obligations of the US to have lower tariff walls than the EU, Japan, China, Russia, and pretty much everyone else. Let's focus on the relationship between quality labor and expensive labor. Let's focus on how the US builds good cars and those import drivers who said, "I'll buy American when they make a competitive product!" should be eating crow.

You're entitled to disagree. It's all opinion in here, but the reality is that so many of those opinions are based on skewed perceptions.

Capitalism, while brilliant in theory, fails in only one way: it assumes that all buyers are informed of all available options and educated on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Since buyers are generally too stupid to understand the value of a 100,000-mile warranty when compared to a 60,000-mile warranty when it comes to resale, buyers don't buy on warranty. Since buyers don't do the research to find out which engines and transmissions last longer, they buy the one that sounds better to them. Of course, they don't know what "better" means as far as performance or durability.

If buyers were to make a checklist of how a CR-V and an Equinox compared, they see clear as day how superior their American product is, but for some reason, CR-Vs still manage to sell. There's no good reason for it except that people like CR-Vs. Capitalism makes no mention of name recognition in its theoretical discussion. It makes no mention of appearance, instead favoring function in its products. Yet, Americans, Canadians, and all people with faces, fingers, and skeletons buy cars based on foolish perceptions built on propoganda-vomiting advertisements. There are people out there buying Kias because the current hampster ads are "cute." Let's forget about the quality. There are hampsters driving Souls!

In conclusion, I think my opinion is clear. If you're playing the game, you just lost.
The_Blur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2010, 08:23 PM   #61
a_Username


 
a_Username's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
I am not going to go back and edit this thread. Your political points are well-worded and not offensive. At this time, they'll stay. Let's not continue that discussion.

Instead, let's focus on economics. Let's focus on the obligations of the US to have lower tariff walls than the EU, Japan, China, Russia, and pretty much everyone else. Let's focus on the relationship between quality labor and expensive labor. Let's focus on how the US builds good cars and those import drivers who said, "I'll buy American when they make a competitive product!" should be eating crow.

You're entitled to disagree. It's all opinion in here, but the reality is that so many of those opinions are based on skewed perceptions.

Capitalism, while brilliant in theory, fails in only one way: it assumes that all buyers are informed of all available options and educated on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Since buyers are generally too stupid to understand the value of a 100,000-mile warranty when compared to a 60,000-mile warranty when it comes to resale, buyers don't buy on warranty. Since buyers don't do the research to find out which engines and transmissions last longer, they buy the one that sounds better to them. Of course, they don't know what "better" means as far as performance or durability.

If buyers were to make a checklist of how a CR-V and an Equinox compared, they see clear as day how superior their American product is, but for some reason, CR-Vs still manage to sell. There's no good reason for it except that people like CR-Vs. Capitalism makes no mention of name recognition in its theoretical discussion. It makes no mention of appearance, instead favoring function in its products. Yet, Americans, Canadians, and all people with faces, fingers, and skeletons buy cars based on foolish perceptions built on propoganda-vomiting advertisements. There are people out there buying Kias because the current hampster ads are "cute." Let's forget about the quality. There are hampsters driving Souls!

In conclusion, I think my opinion is clear. If you're playing the game, you just lost.
Capitalism, in the theory proposed by the Austrian School, is one of the few, if not only model of economics based upon human action. Also, better is not an objective term, instead it is a subjective term. Capitalism is the only system where consumers are the ones who decide what meets their needs, consequently no single individual can say what is better than another.

You're assuming that consumers are simply defensive against advertising. If that were the case, then the success of a company would only depend on its skill in advertising. But, we both know this isn't the case; only one company can have the advantage of a superior product.
a_Username is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2010, 11:05 PM   #62
The_Blur
Jayhawk USN
 
The_Blur's Avatar
 
Drives: 6.2L of AWESOME! 2011 L99 2SS
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NAS Whiting Field
Posts: 14,218
Send a message via AIM to The_Blur
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_Username View Post
Capitalism, in the theory proposed by the Austrian School, is one of the few, if not only model of economics based upon human action. Also, better is not an objective term, instead it is a subjective term. Capitalism is the only system where consumers are the ones who decide what meets their needs, consequently no single individual can say what is better than another.

You're assuming that consumers are simply defensive against advertising. If that were the case, then the success of a company would only depend on its skill in advertising. But, we both know this isn't the case; only one company can have the advantage of a superior product.
You are absolutely correct. That is why I believe a modified version of capitalist theory must be considered. The original version of the theory incorrectly assumes that the mere existence of a superior product corresponds with its success. Practice shows that consumers buy based on what is available. A store is successful based more on location and price than service and quality. As a result, a store with inferior products could feasibly sell better than a store with superior products, disputing the entire basis of the theory.

Let us also consider how a supply line works. In practice, someone invents a product. The product is the best of its kind. Now, this someone must sell the product to stores. Let's say Venture signs an exclusivity agreement with this company to carry this product. The product competes with a product sold at Target. Venture, as we all know, goes out of business. Target's inferior product continues to sell. The holder of Venture's rights gets the exclusive rights to this superior product and foolishly does nothing. Capitalism ignores this almost entirely.

Instead, capitalism assumes that the market is open, but companies restrict rights to monopolize relationships they have with vendors and product lines. Let's take a look at Camaro5. Many of our vendors carry competing products. On this, I'm sure, we can agree. Have you noticed that our suspension specialists tend to advertise either Pedders or Pfadt? I have not noticed both logos carried on the same vendor's signature. Let us, for the sake of argument alone—not an invitation to debate suspension companies—say that one makes a part better than the other and that the other reciprocates this. Now, let us further point out that vendors tend to have repeat customers due to their customer service. This tendency reduces odds that the superior product from the reciprocating company ever gets purchased in favor of the inferior product that is more easily accessible. Do you follow?

Basically, capitalism assumes that everyone has access to everything and that the best product will prevail. This is almost never the case. For that reason, we have fanboys who perceive their products to be superior despite the obviousness of some of their faults. Take, for instance, the heavy duty trucks of 2011. The Chevrolet is better in all the ways that count, but Ford and Dodge fanboys will leap in here just to tell me I'm wrong despite their lack of engineering, mechanical, or functional knowledge of how a truck works. If the best product prevailed, it would instantly generate the most revenue or perhaps even all the available revenue for that market, which is also rarely the case because existing titans would do whatever they could to earn exclusivity in the largest possible share of the market. The only reason to buy an inferior product would be because that is the only product available. This availability thesis points to a fundamental problem in capitalism: that we reward inferior products simply for existing despite their faults.

Right now, the market we have is not an open capitalism. It is a very corporate protectionist bastardization of capitalist theory. This bastardization takes what we know about capitalism and makes it work for the biggest companies, inflating the wealth of those who already have money by giving them the opportunity to nip competition in the bud. Most of us, were we to have brilliant ideas, would eagerly sell them for millions to industry leaders and retire on our newfound assets while they use these ideas to fund generational dynasties of their ostentatious lifestyles.

I won't draw any conclusions or say what should be done about this. That would be politics, and I'd like to keep us on the intelligent discussion at hand without divulging into a forbidden debate about how the world should be. On observation alone, it appears that we agree on some things, but we can't find a lot of common ground on how big a role advertising is. Let me simply point to evidence the preposterous funding given to advertising. Ask any drunken college student if he would buy from a company simply because the ad was awesome, and he would probably say yes. Those ads have value. They may mean nothing to you and me, but they do convert to sales, tilting the balance toward those with the largest bank accounts.
The_Blur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 02:13 AM   #63
a_Username


 
a_Username's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
You are absolutely correct. That is why I believe a modified version of capitalist theory must be considered. The original version of the theory incorrectly assumes that the mere existence of a superior product corresponds with its success. Practice shows that consumers buy based on what is available. A store is successful based more on location and price than service and quality. As a result, a store with inferior products could feasibly sell better than a store with superior products, disputing the entire basis of the theory.
Again, you can not say what product is better than another in one strict sense of what defines "better." Better doesn't have to be one that is has better quality, but yet it could be that it is cheaper than another product. The fact is that for whatever reason, consumers will choose a product that is better than another based upon rather or not it meets their demands adequately.

Quote:
Let us also consider how a supply line works. In practice, someone invents a product. The product is the best of its kind. Now, this someone must sell the product to stores. Let's say Venture signs an exclusivity agreement with this company to carry this product. The product competes with a product sold at Target. Venture, as we all know, goes out of business. Target's inferior product continues to sell. The holder of Venture's rights gets the exclusive rights to this superior product and foolishly does nothing. Capitalism ignores this almost entirely.
You're assuming you undoubtedly know that this product is better. In order for it be better, it has to meet consumers demand more than its competitor. In this particular scenario, this product isn't the fall of Venture; Venture has failed to effectively manage its business and use its opportunity to its advantage. Capitalism isn't solely about product vs. product, but individual vs. individual exchange of goods that both believe to benefit each.

Quote:
Instead, capitalism assumes that the market is open, but companies restrict rights to monopolize relationships they have with vendors and product lines. Let's take a look at Camaro5. Many of our vendors carry competing products. On this, I'm sure, we can agree. Have you noticed that our suspension specialists tend to advertise either Pedders or Pfadt? I have not noticed both logos carried on the same vendor's signature. Let us, for the sake of argument alone—not an invitation to debate suspension companies—say that one makes a part better than the other and that the other reciprocates this. Now, let us further point out that vendors tend to have repeat customers due to their customer service. This tendency reduces odds that the superior product from the reciprocating company ever gets purchased in favor of the inferior product that is more easily accessible. Do you follow?
Product isn't the only determining factor of a business's success. Advertising, Management Skills, competitiveness of product, etc. are all equally important, determining factors of a business's success. The one's who believe that, for example, Toyota, has brainwashed the American public into believing that they are the end-all of automotive engineering through their effective advertising is only falling victim to legend.

Quote:
Basically, capitalism assumes that everyone has access to everything and that the best product will prevail. This is almost never the case. For that reason, we have fanboys who perceive their products to be superior despite the obviousness of some of their faults. Take, for instance, the heavy duty trucks of 2011. The Chevrolet is better in all the ways that count, but Ford and Dodge fanboys will leap in here just to tell me I'm wrong despite their lack of engineering, mechanical, or functional knowledge of how a truck works. If the best product prevailed, it would instantly generate the most revenue or perhaps even all the available revenue for that market, which is also rarely the case because existing titans would do whatever they could to earn exclusivity in the largest possible share of the market. The only reason to buy an inferior product would be because that is the only product available. This availability thesis points to a fundamental problem in capitalism: that we reward inferior products simply for existing despite their faults.
Fanboys believe that their product is superior based on reasons that appealed to them the most, i.e. it's a subjective opinion. You need to reword yourself and say "all that counts to you." Individuals value certain criteria over others, consequently some will buy one product over another despite their similarities. An inferior product can only exist without competition, i.e. only through monopolies.

Quote:
Right now, the market we have is not an open capitalism. It is a very corporate protectionist bastardization of capitalist theory. This bastardization takes what we know about capitalism and makes it work for the biggest companies, inflating the wealth of those who already have money by giving them the opportunity to nip competition in the bud. Most of us, were we to have brilliant ideas, would eagerly sell them for millions to industry leaders and retire on our newfound assets while they use these ideas to fund generational dynasties of their ostentatious lifestyles.
Obviously. I could go down a very long list of how governmental regulation will always and necessarily fail despite its intentions to do the opposite. Of course, I even doubt their intentions. The companies that rely on the state to remove the self-correcting attributes of Capitalism would not exist in a truly free market.

Quote:
I won't draw any conclusions or say what should be done about this. That would be politics, and I'd like to keep us on the intelligent discussion at hand without divulging into a forbidden debate about how the world should be. On observation alone, it appears that we agree on some things, but we can't find a lot of common ground on how big a role advertising is. Let me simply point to evidence the preposterous funding given to advertising. Ask any drunken college student if he would buy from a company simply because the ad was awesome, and he would probably say yes. Those ads have value. They may mean nothing to you and me, but they do convert to sales, tilting the balance toward those with the largest bank accounts.
Advertising undoubtedly has value, but yet I don't see why you're trying to make an evil out of using a method of gaining sales. It's like saying "stop using a cheaper part to cut costs to increase your profits." The tricks of advertising are available to all companies, but most make it seem like companies succeed only on their skill in advertising. Your major fault throughout your whole argument is proposing an arbitrary objective standard of what defines a superior product over an inferior product.
a_Username is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 12:26 AM   #64
porcupinekiller
 
porcupinekiller's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 GT500
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta
Posts: 662
I wish someone out there would tell the POS politicians in this province (British Columbia) about this global economy thing so I won't have to continue paying $4.92 per gallon for 94 octane Chevron.
Oh and well your at it mention our 12% HST (sales tax). lol

Good post by the OP.
porcupinekiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 07:05 AM   #65
Hylton


 
Hylton's Avatar
 
Drives: fanboys and ass kissers crazy.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 7,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Capitalism, while brilliant in theory, fails in only one way: it assumes that all buyers are informed of all available options and educated on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Since buyers are generally too stupid to understand the value of a 100,000-mile warranty when compared to a 60,000-mile warranty when it comes to resale, buyers don't buy on warranty. Since buyers don't do the research to find out which engines and transmissions last longer, they buy the one that sounds better to them. Of course, they don't know what "better" means as far as performance or durability.
Can I ask you what line of work you are in and what you do for a living?
__________________
"BBOMG - More than just a car show.... It's an experience!"
Hylton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 07:51 AM   #66
bpmurr
The Enemy ;)
 
bpmurr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 478
Send a message via AIM to bpmurr
So using the OP's logic we should all buy Ford's since they have the highest amount of American works per car sold.
__________________
2014 GT500
bpmurr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 09:57 AM   #67
bigearl
 
bigearl's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 Camaro 2lt
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Napa
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Capitalism, while brilliant in theory, fails in only one way: it assumes that all buyers are informed of all available options and educated on the advantages and disadvantages of each. Since buyers are generally too stupid to understand the value of a 100,000-mile warranty when compared to a 60,000-mile warranty when it comes to resale, buyers don't buy on warranty. Since buyers don't do the research to find out which engines and transmissions last longer, they buy the one that sounds better to them. Of course, they don't know what "better" means as far as performance or durability.
The problem with this whole paragraph is clearly illustrated in the Camaro. The Camaro is a completely emotional purchase decision. If everyone was extremely educated on all of the options and purchased only on value and durability, then everyone would be in a 3800 engined Buick or a Subaru Outback Wagon. Subaru Outback's are basically are what I consider to be the most definitive jack-of-all-trades, master of none ever produced and you have to work extremely hard to kill a 3800 Buick.

Everyone on here who already has a Camaro would have gone against research because research you never buy a 1st year car. That is a cardinal rule of car buying.

I think consumers are plenty educated, I just don't think they all think like me (or like you). You think people who don't think like you when it comes to a car purchase have not educated themselves on the competition, whereas I think most people who buy new cars are reasonably educated but value different amenities or rank their information sources differently than you do.
__________________
-----------
Sharks have a week dedicated to me.
bigearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 09:51 PM   #68
Markal
White Lightnin
 
Markal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Summit White Camaro LS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gulf Coast - Biloxi MS
Posts: 273
Eventually Mexican, Chinese, Koreans, Indians will make the equivelent of $20.00 dollars U.S. an hour. They will ask for more...they will want a large house, two cars, large screen LCD TV's in all rooms, a pool in the backyard, internet gaming, stereo's, G4 phones, a health plan, a retirement plan, low colledge costs for their children, low taxes....etc. Greed....its common among all people....the other countries are just now catching up to the U.S. They are catching up fast....soon, we will all be equal and the world wil be as one....and we can all together sing kumbuyyah.....yeah, when pigs fly!!!

bigearl, you said:
Everyone on here who already has a Camaro would have gone against research because research you never buy a 1st year car. That is a cardinal rule of car buying.
Maybe years ago but, cars are so much more technical and computer designed today. I bought a PT Cruiser...yeah, I know a Mopar....in April of 2000. The car was new, untested, just a concept/show car. I drove it off the lot in early June 2000, a 2001 PT Cruiser. I drove it for 10 years with no problems and sold it to a very happy elderly Black women. I see her from time to time and she loves it....its still running strong. Its also the reason I saved enough to pay $4,000 dollars down on my new Camaro. First year cars are better today than years and years ago......technology....its a great thing when properly applied and used.

Last edited by Markal; 09-08-2010 at 10:02 PM.
Markal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 10:11 PM   #69
Sax1031


 
Drives: 2000 Mustang GT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Elgin,SC
Posts: 2,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post

It was designed to politely tell some one that by buying a Hyundai, they killed the hopes and dreams of every American and likely killed a few baby kittens.

Sax1031 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 09:50 AM   #70
bigearl
 
bigearl's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 Camaro 2lt
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Napa
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markal View Post

bigearl, you said:
Everyone on here who already has a Camaro would have gone against research because research you never buy a 1st year car. That is a cardinal rule of car buying.
Maybe years ago but, cars are so much more technical and computer designed today. I bought a PT Cruiser...yeah, I know a Mopar....in April of 2000. The car was new, untested, just a concept/show car. I drove it off the lot in early June 2000, a 2001 PT Cruiser. I drove it for 10 years with no problems and sold it to a very happy elderly Black women. I see her from time to time and she loves it....its still running strong. Its also the reason I saved enough to pay $4,000 dollars down on my new Camaro. First year cars are better today than years and years ago......technology....its a great thing when properly applied and used.
Hehe, I have a 2010 Camaro too . But you have to admit, even by today's higher standards- it's typically wiser to buy year 2.

I agree with what you said about other countries demanding more too. It's happening. Riots in China at Honda plants, India now has a cost of living index and a minimum wage of sorts.
__________________
-----------
Sharks have a week dedicated to me.
bigearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 06:46 PM   #71
a_Username


 
a_Username's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigearl View Post
Hehe, I have a 2010 Camaro too . But you have to admit, even by today's higher standards- it's typically wiser to buy year 2.

I agree with what you said about other countries demanding more too. It's happening. Riots in China at Honda plants, India now has a cost of living index and a minimum wage of sorts.
I lol every time I see minimum wage laws.
a_Username is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 07:57 PM   #72
Lauryn200
I Pity The Fool
 
Lauryn200's Avatar
 
Drives: Jeep Wrangler '06 & VW GTI 09
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigearl View Post
The problem with this whole paragraph is clearly illustrated in the Camaro. The Camaro is a completely emotional purchase decision. If everyone was extremely educated on all of the options and purchased only on value and durability, then everyone would be in a 3800 engined Buick or a Subaru Outback Wagon. Subaru Outback's are basically are what I consider to be the most definitive jack-of-all-trades, master of none ever produced and you have to work extremely hard to kill a 3800 Buick.

Everyone on here who already has a Camaro would have gone against research because research you never buy a 1st year car. That is a cardinal rule of car buying.

I think consumers are plenty educated, I just don't think they all think like me (or like you). You think people who don't think like you when it comes to a car purchase have not educated themselves on the competition, whereas I think most people who buy new cars are reasonably educated but value different amenities or rank their information sources differently than you do.


Both my vehicles are the last model before they changed them.

No issues from either one of them.

I wanted a fast sports car...loved the Camaro,fell in love when I saw it at the NYC car show. But after trials and tribulations with dealers and the fact it would not fit in the garage was the deal killer for me.
__________________
........"Is custom faded?"
Jeep Wrangler 06 & VW GTI 09
"My Fast"-
Lauryn200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 11:19 PM   #73
alfie43

 
alfie43's Avatar
 
Drives: S/C 2SS/RS Camaro-6M-VicRed
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alfie (Mariano) lives in Shelby Twp, Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,118
Send a message via ICQ to alfie43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post
So using the OP's logic we should all buy Ford's since they have the highest amount of American works per car sold.
No, that wasn't my "logic", that was your interpretation of what I said. You buy what ever you want to buy. Ultimately, it is the writer's (my) responsibility to accurately communicate his point to the reader, but as we all know, the Internet is a free-for-all where some people see only what they want to see, hear only what they want to hear, and conclude only what they want to conclude.

At the risk of becoming redundant, what was my point in my OP? Simply put; A Canadian built Camaro, a Mexican built Ford, or a Michigan built Cadillac, will generate more American jobs than a Korean built Hyundai, an Ohio built Honda, or a Kia assembled in Alabama. The job numbers aren't even close, i.e., GM, Ford, and Chrysler employ more Americans per car produced, than the foreign manufacturers employ per car produced.

There is nothing else said or implied in that. Now, some here have taken it and ran in every possible direction with it. It seems we all love to soapbox to the point of pontification.

There was the post that interpreted my OP had a thinly "veiled" hidden agenda of protectionism...or patriotism, or whatever, Really? I thought I clearly excluded those motives from the start? Or the post that claimed that I was a dinosaur and I was "ignorant" to the fact that the auto business is now global and he proceeded to school me. How would he know of my knowledge of the global economy and auto industry? In his defense; unlike others, I don't include my education level and occupation in my signature and I don't wear my MBTI Personality Type like a badge. Nor do I feel compelled to warn others that I just might "Jack your thread".

To the poster that dismissed manufacturing as being "last century" and claimed that service industry jobs were more "noble" and sophisticated. I guess you might say that if your view of today's auto manufacturing process is last century. Are you aware of how the modern automobile and it's supply chain is R&D'ed, designed, engineered and assembled? We are taking about an automated robotic manufacturing process that supports highly skilled technical jobs....they aren't Henry Ford's assembly lines. Do you know the ratio of manual labor hours to technical and engineering labor hours in the production of today's automobile? I think not. By the way, I think "noble" is better suited for describing an educator teaching our children, a nurse, doctor, health care professional, a policeman/fireman, a journeyman tradesman training an apprentice, or a soldier....not someone sitting in an office cubical computing someone's taxes.

Someone has to tell me what is the relevance of post #50 to this discussion? When I questioned its appropriateness, I was reminded that this was a political discussion from the start. No, it was not, and that post is not relevant political commentary. That was partisan bull sh*t. It doesn't belong in this thread and you know it. As one of you said, "Call a spade, a spade".

In my post in another thread, I chided the OP because he bought a Hyundai Genesis because he was experiencing some employment difficulty. I saw irony in that, but I was wrong to demean him. I regret those remarks, and that certainly influenced your take on my OP in this thread. I sent him a PM and said I was wrong to publicly ridicule him. I offered an explanation, my sincere apology, my regrets, and he has graciously accepted.

Alfie
__________________

Last edited by alfie43; 09-11-2010 at 10:55 AM.
alfie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 12:14 AM   #74
Markal
White Lightnin
 
Markal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Summit White Camaro LS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gulf Coast - Biloxi MS
Posts: 273
alfie43,
You are a wise man. Your first few paragraphs sum up the internet community very well. Reading words and comprehending what the writter is saying....really saying is extremely difficult because the mood, eye contact, visual clues and body language we have all grown to know and understand is not there in the written word. Without these clues many mistrust and misinterpret the overall meaning and jump to misguided conclussions the poster never intended. This is the main reason for misunderstanding and not "seeing" what the writter meant in the first place. Several times I've been called "Clueless" (and worse)....really?....why say this? Say, here is what I think or I hear you but, I disagree and leave it at that. By purchasing more American made products....its not Xenophobia....it keeps Americans working and keeps this country great.....PEACE!
Markal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2010, 07:30 PM   #75
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
You've got it, Alfie!!

I can't add much more to what you've said throughout this thread.

There's a bumper-sticker that says: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!"

When there's a choice, the domestic-'ness' of a company ought to be a major factor in the purchase decision, imo. Especially something as expensive as an automobile. But hey...I like to support my country's economy, call me crazy, or 'extremist' -- it's my opinion that too few have a sense of national identity anymore, and this is only a very small part of that. Everyone is so spoiled today and nobody seems to care about the consequences of their actions and I think it's awful. :(
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.