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Old 08-31-2010, 05:04 PM   #35
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Part of the "patriotism" pledge is that it's getting very difficult to conclusively say what exactly a "domestic" is...

Case in point: Most vehicles manufactured AND sold, in Canada, would be by whom?

Yup...Toyota/Lexus

And this is AFTER Canada/Ontario topped up GM with 17% of the "necessary funding"...
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:25 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Keedy View Post
Educating and encouraging people about the benefits of purchasing american cars isn't an economic policy. This thread isn't about passing laws to force people to buy american, it's talking points and observations about why you should.
Thank you. Yes, I thought I made it clear that my post wasn't about politics or patriotism, but I guess some people don't "listen" very well.
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:11 PM   #37
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Educating and encouraging people about the benefits of purchasing american cars isn't an economic policy. This thread isn't about passing laws to force people to buy american, it's talking points and observations about why you should.
Well, to an extent you should, but only if they deserve to have your business. I have no problem with being a nationalist, but the fervent nationalists are the ones who cause problems because of some misguided ideology of absolutism. Also, I'm not sure of discussing basic economics is allowed here, but there are differences between economically unviable jobs and jobs just for the hell of it.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:59 PM   #38
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Oh ya, I know... I guess some people know everything there is to know about everything that can be known in the world (say that 3 times fast)... Met a few of them types in person over the years and plenty of em on the internet....

LOL

To the OP... Nice post....
they are called trolls lol
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:14 AM   #39
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Buying an american car simply because it is american is counterproductive. If you consistently choose to purchase the product that better fits your needs, and a company (such as GM or Ford) wants your business, they have to be competitive. If everyone is just buying American made cars in the US because they are made in The USA, quality suffers and in turn, global sales suffer. If they don't have to compete to make a buck, the unions take all they can get and less is put into the actual product. I bought a Japanese vehicle because there is nothing American-made even somewhat like it. Had there been, I may have bought it, but not if it isn't the better vehicle. It's not my fault the unions have totally raped our economy. When people with GED's working on an assembly line are making 50k a year + benefits, you are bound to fail. Life just doesn't work that way. The biggest reason we are having a job crisis is because people are spending way beyond their means. If you lose everything to the bank a month after you lose your job, you were living way beyond your means and frankly, you were asking for it. I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but when people are buying cars that they won't be able to pay off for 15 years, it's no wonder our economy is such trash.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:11 AM   #40
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American manufacturing needed a kick in the pants in the 70's. We were building junk and not even caring if it was junk because we had 85% market share. When the oil embargo hit and gas went up to a buck a gallon, people started to buy imports for the fuel economy. They stayed because of the quality. The Big 3 started to respond, but then got used to the new lower limit of market share and went back into cruise control. The 80's offerings let the import market explode, especially in the Luxery class, when people found out that Luxery could still be fun to drive. Ford and GM have made huge gains in quality and desireability, and hopefully the American car buyer will come back. The real question that faces consumers is if buying an American car will also help their bottom line. It is no longer the 60's where everyone knew someone that worked for the Big 3, people need to see what an economic multiplier buying from US automakers really means to their community. Unfortunatly, there are no longer the factories in every town in the US that there used to be.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:22 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
Buying an american car simply because it is american is counterproductive. If you consistently choose to purchase the product that better fits your needs, and a company (such as GM or Ford) wants your business, they have to be competitive. If everyone is just buying American made cars in the US because they are made in The USA, quality suffers and in turn, global sales suffer. If they don't have to compete to make a buck, the unions take all they can get and less is put into the actual product. I bought a Japanese vehicle because there is nothing American-made even somewhat like it. Had there been, I may have bought it, but not if it isn't the better vehicle. It's not my fault the unions have totally raped our economy. When people with GED's working on an assembly line are making 50k a year + benefits, you are bound to fail. Life just doesn't work that way. The biggest reason we are having a job crisis is because people are spending way beyond their means. If you lose everything to the bank a month after you lose your job, you were living way beyond your means and frankly, you were asking for it. I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but when people are buying cars that they won't be able to pay off for 15 years, it's no wonder our economy is such trash.
I agree with you on the global economy bit and competition. And I totally agree with you on people living beyond their means, and I would suspect a great deal of camaro owners probably fall into that category. You know just because you can sign a piece of paper and walk away with a car doesnt mean you should, but thats why you see a lot of the cars already being turned in, and guess what the same thing is going to happen when the Z comes out.

I think you fail to realize a couple of things. For one there isnt fair trade between imports and exports between us and Japan or china and Im not just talking the QTY's im talking the actual rules and tariffs. Second off I think we do need to start buying American, there are American products out there that are better than imported goods. I'm all about competition and a global economy but I think the Government has allowed other nations to use us a stomping ground.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I recently posted in a couple of threads that turned into discussions about our domestic cars (GM, Ford, Chrysler) vs foreign cars.

In one thread, the OP posted that he bought a Hyundai Genesis. He also stated that was struggling in the job market. I chided him about the irony of buying a car that is 100% Korean assembled with a 95% foreign made content. I said perhaps his employment picture, and for many other Americans, would be much improved if people like him bought less foreign cars. Of course, I got toasted for that. I was on vacation and couldn't access a computer to fully complete my position.

Before some of you jump in to remind me that the Camaro is made in Canada, read this entire post. Also, I'm not talking about patriotism. I'm not talking about restricting our free market choices. I am not anti-Asian; my father immigrated to this country from the Far-East. The quality gap is history, so that it is no longer part of the discussion. Again, my point is: It's about US JOBS.

As for our Canadian built Camaros; There is more to this story than where a car is assembled. It's about the US jobs that are created and maintained to produced a car regardless of where the final assembly takes place. It's about employment in the parts and components industry; the research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly of vehicle content.

GM, Ford and Chrysler employ far more Americans per car than the foreign companies, including the foreign implants that are assembled here. The numbers aren't even close. Here are some figures from the Levelfield Institute. They express their findings as number of jobs created per every 2500 cars produced.

"The JPC Rating (jobs per car) is calculated by dividing the total number of cars sold by an automaker in the U.S. by the company's U.S. workforce. It measures an automaker's contribution to job creation in all areasóresearch, design, engineering and managementónot just assembly jobs. From a simple mathematical perspective, the rating tells you how many U.S. workers a company employs for every 2,500 cars they sell.

For example, Ford employs 89 Americans for every 2,500 cars sold, followed by GM and Chrysler at 78 and 92 respectively. Honda ranks first among the major foreign automakers, but only with a score of 54 followed by Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai/Kia at 51, 38, and 26 respectively.

Why do we count jobs per 2,500 cards sold, rather than for each car sold? Doing so produces whole numbers, which are easier to compare. For example, each Hyundai car supports .01 jobs, while every 2500 cars support 26.

Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai.
"

Alfie
I also posted on the same thread you had concerning the Genesis, I didn't want to get into this debate then but you have brought up some good points. Basically, it's just better for the country when you support an American product, especially when the quality is there. I again will never buy a Korean car; it's just out of principal.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:15 AM   #43
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I think that America is also missing the boat on import tarrifs. For instance, in Russia, where I presently live, you can pay up to 50% for importing a foreign made car!!!!!!!!!! That really doesn't help the Russian auto industry so much, as it does to give foreign maufacturers an incentive to manufacture inside of Russia. In any case, a lot of people are buying cars manufactured in Russia for the simple reason that they can't afford the imported cars. I'm all for competition, but not every country is playing fair. I also understand that being part of the WTO limits the USA's ability to do this sort of thing. It would be nice to somehow give the US industry some advantages in this day and age.

On a side note, customs duties make up 40% of Russia's revenue! How 'bout them apples!?

So, since BMW and MB make cars in the Southern US, I can buy one and still be patriotic? What do you think?
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by nards444 View Post
I agree with you on the global economy bit and competition. And I totally agree with you on people living beyond their means, and I would suspect a great deal of camaro owners probably fall into that category. You know just because you can sign a piece of paper and walk away with a car doesnt mean you should, but thats why you see a lot of the cars already being turned in, and guess what the same thing is going to happen when the Z comes out.

I think you fail to realize a couple of things. For one there isnt fair trade between imports and exports between us and Japan or china and Im not just talking the QTY's im talking the actual rules and tariffs. Second off I think we do need to start buying American, there are American products out there that are better than imported goods. I'm all about competition and a global economy but I think the Government has allowed other nations to use us a stomping ground.
Excellent post. Also, we must include the health care issue into this discussion. Foreign manufacturers have a competitive advantage because they don't pay for employee health care. Japan, Korea, Germany all have a national health care system.

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Old 09-01-2010, 11:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I recently posted in a couple of threads that turned into discussions about our domestic cars (GM, Ford, Chrysler) vs foreign cars.

In one thread, the OP posted that he bought a Hyundai Genesis. He also stated that was struggling in the job market. I chided him about the irony of buying a car that is 100% Korean assembled with a 95% foreign made content. I said perhaps his employment picture, and for many other Americans, would be much improved if people like him bought less foreign cars. Of course, I got toasted for that. I was on vacation and couldn't access a computer to fully complete my position.

Before some of you jump in to remind me that the Camaro is made in Canada, read this entire post. Also, I'm not talking about patriotism. I'm not talking about restricting our free market choices. I am not anti-Asian; my father immigrated to this country from the Far-East. The quality gap is history, so that it is no longer part of the discussion. Again, my point is: It's about US JOBS.

As for our Canadian built Camaros; There is more to this story than where a car is assembled. It's about the US jobs that are created and maintained to produced a car regardless of where the final assembly takes place. It's about employment in the parts and components industry; the research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly of vehicle content.

GM, Ford and Chrysler employ far more Americans per car than the foreign companies, including the foreign implants that are assembled here. The numbers aren't even close. Here are some figures from the Levelfield Institute. They express their findings as number of jobs created per every 2500 cars produced.

"The JPC Rating (jobs per car) is calculated by dividing the total number of cars sold by an automaker in the U.S. by the company's U.S. workforce. It measures an automaker's contribution to job creation in all areasóresearch, design, engineering and managementónot just assembly jobs. From a simple mathematical perspective, the rating tells you how many U.S. workers a company employs for every 2,500 cars they sell.

For example, Ford employs 89 Americans for every 2,500 cars sold, followed by GM and Chrysler at 78 and 92 respectively. Honda ranks first among the major foreign automakers, but only with a score of 54 followed by Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai/Kia at 51, 38, and 26 respectively.

Why do we count jobs per 2,500 cards sold, rather than for each car sold? Doing so produces whole numbers, which are easier to compare. For example, each Hyundai car supports .01 jobs, while every 2500 cars support 26.

Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai.
"

Alfie
This is the kind of siloed nationalism that should have went the way of the dinosaur.

If everyone in the US bought US based cars things would not be any better in terms of the economy. The lagging economy is a much more complex subject which, if you care to open that can of worms we can, cannot be solved uni-directionally.

The money made from selling a foreign car goes to the dealership, correct? That money largely stays within the US borders. The profit from Nissan, as an example, selling the car to the dealership goes back to Japan. Japan in turn employs people both in Japan and in the US. Those in Japan purchase some goods from the US (largely manufactured items and food) which brings some money back to America.

The balance of imports vs. exports is called the trade balance. The US is at a deficit with most countries (Japan) but is at a surplus with others (very few) because our economy has moved from a majority manufacturing base to a majority service based. Services rendered are not captured in the trade deficit. This isn't a problem. The world thrives on services as much as it does manufacturing.

The reason the manufacturing jobs have left this country is due to a competitive advantage held by other countries. The people outside the US (largely first world countries in general) are willing to do the same manufacturing job that people used to do here... for less. So, economically, they have a competitive advantage that America can't match because of what people are willing to work for here. Concurrently, service jobs tend to be viewed as more sophisticated and more noble where as manufacturing is considered working class and kind of "last century". People try to move out of the plant and into a desk.

Given the movement of jobs abroad to countries with competitive advantages, those people that remain here with the manufacturing skill set are either going to have to take lower wages to get a job or learn a new skill set. It is a paradigm shift in the economy.

Now, why get so hot and bothered about where our stuff is made? Why shouldn't it be made in China, Japan, Canada, Mexico, where ever? As a people we cannot afford to be so nationalistic and try to do everything ourselves, it doesn't make sense. The reason it doesn't is because some countries will be better at some things than others.

Say Japan built the worlds best computers and they were affordable/reasonably priced. They lasted for several years and there were little mechanical difficulties. Should the US make them too just so we can provide for ourselves? No, we can't make them as well as Japan did. So why bother making an inferior product when a perfectly good one is already made? We can spend our time focused on something we do better than Japan. Now we have something to trade for. We get their computers and they get our... say... marketing expertise or finance expertise.

The global economy is emerging and we depend on everyone and they depend on us. To try to turn the clock back 150 years just so we could be "independent" is an ignorant way to think.

Where does most of the US debt come from? Foreigners. Where did the foreigners earn a great deal of their money? Selling shit to Americans.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by nards444 View Post
I agree with you on the global economy bit and competition. And I totally agree with you on people living beyond their means, and I would suspect a great deal of camaro owners probably fall into that category. You know just because you can sign a piece of paper and walk away with a car doesnt mean you should, but thats why you see a lot of the cars already being turned in, and guess what the same thing is going to happen when the Z comes out.

I think you fail to realize a couple of things. For one there isnt fair trade between imports and exports between us and Japan or china and Im not just talking the QTY's im talking the actual rules and tariffs. Second off I think we do need to start buying American, there are American products out there that are better than imported goods. I'm all about competition and a global economy but I think the Government has allowed other nations to use us a stomping ground.
American investors and American consumers are the ones reaping the benefits of the frankly pathetic excuse of an economic model that China is currently using. Their uncontrolled devaluation of the yuan is making them sell their products at a loss. People need to stop thinking of it as country vs. country but as individual vs. individual.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:44 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by SuperFly03 View Post
This is the kind of siloed nationalism that should have went the way of the dinosaur.

If everyone in the US bought US based cars things would not be any better in terms of the economy. The lagging economy is a much more complex subject which, if you care to open that can of worms we can, cannot be solved uni-directionally.

The money made from selling a foreign car goes to the dealership, correct? That money largely stays within the US borders. The profit from Nissan, as an example, selling the car to the dealership goes back to Japan. Japan in turn employs people both in Japan and in the US. Those in Japan purchase some goods from the US (largely manufactured items and food) which brings some money back to America.

The balance of imports vs. exports is called the trade balance. The US is at a deficit with most countries (Japan) but is at a surplus with others (very few) because our economy has moved from a majority manufacturing base to a majority service based. Services rendered are not captured in the trade deficit. This isn't a problem. The world thrives on services as much as it does manufacturing.

The reason the manufacturing jobs have left this country is due to a competitive advantage held by other countries. The people outside the US (largely first world countries in general) are willing to do the same manufacturing job that people used to do here... for less. So, economically, they have a competitive advantage that America can't match because of what people are willing to work for here. Concurrently, service jobs tend to be viewed as more sophisticated and more noble where as manufacturing is considered working class and kind of "last century". People try to move out of the plant and into a desk.

Given the movement of jobs abroad to countries with competitive advantages, those people that remain here with the manufacturing skill set are either going to have to take lower wages to get a job or learn a new skill set. It is a paradigm shift in the economy.

Now, why get so hot and bothered about where our stuff is made? Why shouldn't it be made in China, Japan, Canada, Mexico, where ever? As a people we cannot afford to be so nationalistic and try to do everything ourselves, it doesn't make sense. The reason it doesn't is because some countries will be better at some things than others.

Say Japan built the worlds best computers and they were affordable/reasonably priced. They lasted for several years and there were little mechanical difficulties. Should the US make them too just so we can provide for ourselves? No, we can't make them as well as Japan did. So why bother making an inferior product when a perfectly good one is already made? We can spend our time focused on something we do better than Japan. Now we have something to trade for. We get their computers and they get our... say... marketing expertise or finance expertise.

The global economy is emerging and we depend on everyone and they depend on us. To try to turn the clock back 150 years just so we could be "independent" is an ignorant way to think.

Where does most of the US debt come from? Foreigners. Where did the foreigners earn a great deal of their money? Selling shit to Americans.
Thank you! Mercantilism died with the old British Empire, and there is no reason at all to bring back its dangerous policies.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:04 PM   #48
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Ok, here is the fundamental question. Macro economics says that the highest quality, lowest cost producer wins.

Is anyone in America willing to work for $40 per week?

I thought not. Therefore since America can never be (at least in my life time) competitive with China labor.........or Japanese and Chinese manipulated currency, what should we do?

Not for forcing the issue or protectionism, but the global economy will kick us in the pants until we either a) become so efficient that the costs are neurtalized or b) we let our labor rates drop significantly.

Germans buy German stuff made buy Germans. Walmart couldn't make it in Germany. When I was there a couple of years ago I asked why the Walmart was empty. "Closed.....Germans don't buy cheap stuff, they buy good stuff". It's just a mentality.

So good thread and good conversation.

And by the way, GM market share on the coasts drops to near 10% from the 40 plus % in the heartland. Explain that.............I can't.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:15 PM   #49
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Ok, here is the fundamental question. Macro economics says that the highest quality, lowest cost producer wins.

Is anyone in America willing to work for $40 per week?

I thought not. Therefore since America can never be (at least in my life time) competitive with China labor.........or Japanese and Chinese manipulated currency, what should we do?

Not for forcing the issue or protectionism, but the global economy will kick us in the pants until we either a) become so efficient that the costs are neurtalized or b) we let our labor rates drop significantly.

Germans buy German stuff made buy Germans. Walmart couldn't make it in Germany. When I was there a couple of years ago I asked why the Walmart was empty. "Closed.....Germans don't buy cheap stuff, they buy good stuff". It's just a mentality.

So good thread and good conversation.

And by the way, GM market share on the coasts drops to near 10% from the 40 plus % in the heartland. Explain that.............I can't.
When looking at trade from the bird's eye view of macroeconomics it is easy to lose your way. The fact is that when China uses this form of protectionism they sell their goods at a loss. It's simply an illusion of prosperity, much like after WW2. However, this concept hurts the Chinese consumer and Chinese producer. It effectively robs the average Chinese citizen of his/her savings during the period of inflation that inevitably takes place. The producer is hurt because he is selling the same amount of product for less money. Any economic model, rather it's Keynesian, Capitalist, Socialist, Mercantile, etc. will tell you that losing money isn't the right way to run a business. However, it is in Mercantilism, Keynesianism, and Socialism that you'll find the concepts that are essentially ruining our economies.
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Old 09-02-2010, 02:13 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I recently posted in a couple of threads that turned into discussions about our domestic cars (GM, Ford, Chrysler) vs foreign cars.

In one thread, the OP posted that he bought a Hyundai Genesis. He also stated that was struggling in the job market. I chided him about the irony of buying a car that is 100% Korean assembled with a 95% foreign made content. I said perhaps his employment picture, and for many other Americans, would be much improved if people like him bought less foreign cars. Of course, I got toasted for that. I was on vacation and couldn't access a computer to fully complete my position.

Before some of you jump in to remind me that the Camaro is made in Canada, read this entire post. Also, I'm not talking about patriotism. I'm not talking about restricting our free market choices. I am not anti-Asian; my father immigrated to this country from the Far-East. The quality gap is history, so that it is no longer part of the discussion. Again, my point is: It's about US JOBS.

As for our Canadian built Camaros; There is more to this story than where a car is assembled. It's about the US jobs that are created and maintained to produced a car regardless of where the final assembly takes place. It's about employment in the parts and components industry; the research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly of vehicle content.

GM, Ford and Chrysler employ far more Americans per car than the foreign companies, including the foreign implants that are assembled here. The numbers aren't even close. Here are some figures from the Levelfield Institute. They express their findings as number of jobs created per every 2500 cars produced.

"The JPC Rating (jobs per car) is calculated by dividing the total number of cars sold by an automaker in the U.S. by the company's U.S. workforce. It measures an automaker's contribution to job creation in all areasóresearch, design, engineering and managementónot just assembly jobs. From a simple mathematical perspective, the rating tells you how many U.S. workers a company employs for every 2,500 cars they sell.

For example, Ford employs 89 Americans for every 2,500 cars sold, followed by GM and Chrysler at 78 and 92 respectively. Honda ranks first among the major foreign automakers, but only with a score of 54 followed by Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai/Kia at 51, 38, and 26 respectively.

Why do we count jobs per 2,500 cards sold, rather than for each car sold? Doing so produces whole numbers, which are easier to compare. For example, each Hyundai car supports .01 jobs, while every 2500 cars support 26.

Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai.
"

Alfie
Our current President after reading this picks up the phone and makes a reservation for his wife and family in Spain in the most expensive hotel and invited 40 of her friends to tag along, so he can get a nice round of golf in peace away from the family.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:19 AM   #51
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And by the way, GM market share on the coasts drops to near 10% from the 40 plus % in the heartland. Explain that.............I can't.
Sure.....

That is partly due to GMs archaic global identity strategy (a Buick here is an Opel there syndrome). There still seems to be (amongst the old guard at GM) a mentality where "the 4 core brands" cannot be implemented throughout the world because Opel, Vauxhaul and Holden have such strong brand recognition in their respective markets.

Well guess what happens when an immigrant comes to the US or Canada seeking a better life for their family (500,000 refugees a year become permanent residents in US and Canada)? They end up buying something they are familiar with. Do they know Opel? Yes they do because Opel is well known in the poor countries. Do they know Buick? Nope. Do they know Toyota and Ford? Damn right they do and so familiarity plays a strong part in their decision making.

Get your market research folks to give you the numbers about how many new immigrants buy GM and post it back on this thread.

I've been saying for years that all of GM's brands should be global brands. You've owned Opel and Vauxhaul for 80 years or so and you still haven't had a CEO who has the testical fortitude to develop a good M&A strategy for those companies which will protect their goodwill that they've developed over the years.

Can't be done? BS - you just have to look at the technology world for proof. Companies like Microsoft, Intel, AT&T and HP (all American btw) have been gobbling up companies while still being able to retain the customer base of the acquired. For example, Digital (DEC) was bought out by Compaq which was later bought out by HP. Everything from customer retention to company culture was thought through before the transaction occured. That's just good management using a well thought out M&A stategy.

You guys have no idea about the BILLIONS you are losing in overhead and the BILLIONS you are losing in lost sales due to not having the 4 core brands globally and nothing else.
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