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Old 09-10-2010, 09:41 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
No, that wasn't my "logic", that was your interpretation of my words. You buy what ever you want to buy. Ultimately, it is the writer's (my) responsibility to accurately communicate his point to the reader, but as we all know, the Internet is a free-for-all where some people see only what they want to see, hear only what they want to hear, and conclude only what they want to conclude.

At the risk of becoming redundant, what was my point in my OP? Simply put; A Canadian built Camaro, a Mexican built Ford, or a Michigan built Cadillac, will generate more American jobs than a Korean built Hyundai, an Ohio built Honda, or a Kia assembled in Alabama. The job numbers aren't even close, i.e., GM, Ford, and Chrysler employ more Americans per car produced, than the foreign manufacturers employ per car produced.

There is nothing else said or implied in that. Now, some here have taken it and ran in every possible direction with it. It seems we all love to soapbox to the point of pontification.

There was the post that interpreted my OP had a thinly "veiled" hidden agenda of protectionism...or patriotism, or whatever, Really? I thought I clearly excluded those motives from the start? Or the post that claimed that I was a dinosaur and I was "ignorant" to the fact that the auto business is now global and he proceeded to school me. How would he know of my knowledge of the global economy and auto industry? In his defense; unlike others, I don't include my education level and occupation in my signature and I don't wear my MBTI Personality Type like a badge. Nor do I feel compelled to warn others that I just might "Jack your thread".

To the poster that dismissed manufacturing as being "last century" and claimed that the service industry was more "noble" and sophisticated. I guess you might say that if your concept of today's auto manufacturing process is last century. Are you aware of how the modern automobile and it's supply chain is R&D'ed, designed, engineered and assembled? We are taking about a highly automated robotic assembly process...not Henry Ford's assembly lines. Do you know the ratio of manual labor hours to technical and engineering labor hours in the production of today's automobile? I think not. By the way, I think "noble" is better suited for describing an educator teaching our children, a nurse, doctor, health care professional, a policeman/fireman, a journeyman tradesman training an apprentice, or a soldier....not someone sitting in an office cubical computing someone's taxes.

Someone has to tell me what is the relevance of post #50 to this discussion? When I questioned its appropriateness, I was reminded that this was a political discussion from the start. No, it was not, and that post is not relevant political commentary. That was partisan bull sh*t. It doesn't belong in this thread and you know it. As one of you said, "Call a spade, a spade".

In my post in another thread, I chided the OP because he bought a Hyundai Genesis because he was experiencing some employment difficulty. I saw irony in that, but I was wrong to demean him. I regret those remarks, and that certainly influenced your take on my OP in this thread. I sent him a PM and said I was wrong to publicly ridicule him. I offered an explanation, my sincere apology, my regrets, and he has graciously accepted.

Alfie
I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:29 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by a_Username View Post
I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.
I completely agree with that. It is common knowledge that the "quality gap" with the foreign brands that once existed has been closed, equaled and in many cases even surpassed. We can make competitive high quality cars.

It is the cost factor that worries me. Can we compete on a cost basis and avoid paying our people 3rd world wages? At times, I am skeptical. At one time, the American middle class was the envy of the rest of the world and we were elevating their standard of living. Now I fear that there are competitive market pressures that are pulling our wages down to their level.

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Old 09-10-2010, 10:49 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by a_Username View Post
I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.
You are correct except you forgot to mention...trade barriers. Asians pay a high tarrif or tax on American vehicles (as well as other things American)....same with Europe...very hard to buy American made quality in these countries when the cost is high sales are low. Here in the U.S. we say c'mon in, its a free market (except it isn't) because foreign companies have an advantage, taxes, wages, unions....etc....its not fair. Our government has allowed foreign countries to make huge profits while paying minimal taxes at the cost of American companies paying for everything else. Why would numerous American companies outsource to foreign companies? Because its wise to take advantage of unfairness.....Thats U.S. policy for the present. Over half the stuff Americans buy is made in China!!! Think about it. Call me a protectionist or whatever you want....do you think Europe or Asia will protect us?....no...they just want our money. We need to protect ourselfs and do it NOW! Protect our right to work and be...make these foreign companies pay to do business in the U.S.....they do the same in their countries!!! U.S workers stand strong in every industry....where you goin with that??? We are still a great country...at least for now.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:53 PM   #79
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I promise you protectionist policies would hurt us more than the other countries.

Their is room for improvement for sure, but it a very thin line.
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:46 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I completely agree with that. It is common knowledge that the "quality gap" with the foreign brands that once existed has been closed, equaled and in many cases even surpassed. We can make competitive high quality cars.

It is the cost factor that worries me. Can we complete on a cost basis and avoid paying our people 3rd world wages? At times, I am skeptical. At one time, the American middle class was the envy of the rest of the world and we were elevating their standard of living. Now I fear that there are competitive market pressures that are pulling our wages down to their level.

Alfie
I could answer you, but it would be a long political discussion that isn't allowed here.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:05 AM   #81
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You are correct except you forgot to mention...trade barriers. Asians pay a high tarrif or tax on American vehicles (as well as other things American)....same with Europe...very hard to buy American made quality in these countries when the cost is high sales are low. Here in the U.S. we say c'mon in, its a free market (except it isn't) because foreign companies have an advantage, taxes, wages, unions....etc....its not fair. Our government has allowed foreign countries to make huge profits while paying minimal taxes at the cost of American companies paying for everything else. Why would numerous American companies outsource to foreign companies? Because its wise to take advantage of unfairness.....Thats U.S. policy for the present. Over half the stuff Americans buy is made in China!!! Think about it. Call me a protectionist or whatever you want....do you think Europe or Asia will protect us?....no...they just want our money. We need to protect ourselfs and do it NOW! Protect our right to work and be...make these foreign companies pay to do business in the U.S.....they do the same in their countries!!! U.S workers stand strong in every industry....where you goin with that??? We are still a great country...at least for now.
First of all, whoever says we have a free market is frankly stupid. However, there are unintended consequences of trade sanctions, especially proposing those in the midst of a global depression. The fact is that the Chinese government, through their unrestricted devaluation of yuan, is only digging a nonrefillable hole for themselves. Devaluation of the yuan is only hurting the Chinese consumer and Chinese entrepreneur; the consumer by robbing him of his savings and the entrepreneur by making him sell the same amount of product for half the price before this government engineered inflation. They are continually selling their exports at a loss. The United States should not follow suit in this fallacious attempt at economics.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:24 AM   #82
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I promise you protectionist policies would hurt us more than the other countries.

Their is room for improvement for sure, but it a very thin line.
Protectionist policies would hurt us more than other countries....REALLY?
How? France has VERY protectionist policies and they are doing O.K. (for a socialist society). A very thin line indeed, China may think they own us but, what if we fall. What if the U.S. had another depression even worse than the first?....then China (and others) would fall....and have a depression. They need us....they need our money. Without our purchashing power....who else would buy? For the U.S. to purchase goods Americans must have jobs. What jobs....service....government??? Can these jobs really save the U.S? No, only blue colar jobs can save the U.S.. Lawyers, Politicians and health care workers be damned!!! It seriously boils down to who really makes the products....not just the supporters. A Lawyer usually doesn't hire another lawyer....a doctor doesn't usually ask for health advise and Politicians think they know everything so.....yes, we need all these workers but, we need manufacturing jobs more than anything else. It drives an economy...it drives a society...it drives importance in the world. Without it we are lost. Unions be damned....they want too much!!!
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Old 09-11-2010, 03:35 AM   #83
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Protectionist policies would hurt us more than other countries....REALLY?
How? France has VERY protectionist policies and they are doing O.K. (for a socialist society). A very thin line indeed, China may think they own us but, what if we fall. What if the U.S. had another depression even worse than the first?....then China (and others) would fall....and have a depression. They need us....they need our money. Without our purchashing power....who else would buy? For the U.S. to purchase goods Americans must have jobs. What jobs....service....government??? Can these jobs really save the U.S? No, only blue colar jobs can save the U.S.. Lawyers, Politicians and health care workers be damned!!! It seriously boils down to who really makes the products....not just the supporters. A Lawyer usually doesn't hire another lawyer....a doctor doesn't usually ask for health advise and Politicians think they know everything so.....yes, we need all these workers but, we need manufacturing jobs more than anything else. It drives an economy...it drives a society...it drives importance in the world. Without it we are lost. Unions be damned....they want too much!!!
Protectionism is only another form of inflation. You'll raise prices of all goods, plus you'll see unemployment rise due to the people who relied on jobs provided by foreign companies be reduced. With our current welfare state being added into the mix, you'll have to help these newly unemployed people through unemployment checks and other incentives. To offset this increase in spending on welfare, the government will have to increase its revenue by increased taxation; usually, taxation is aimed at businesses. Further stressing business with unneeded expenditures will force them to readjust their budgets, which would consist of cost-cutting and raising prices of their goods. You see where I'm going with this?
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:21 AM   #84
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We are still the manufacturing leader of the world. We start implementing protectionist policies and we end up conceding that title to say China. People would simply look other places for their goods.
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:48 AM   #85
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Protectionist policies would hurt us more than other countries....REALLY?
How? France has VERY protectionist policies and they are doing O.K. (for a socialist society). A very thin line indeed, China may think they own us but, what if we fall. What if the U.S. had another depression even worse than the first?....then China (and others) would fall....and have a depression. They need us....they need our money. Without our purchashing power....who else would buy? For the U.S. to purchase goods Americans must have jobs. What jobs....service....government??? Can these jobs really save the U.S? No, only blue colar jobs can save the U.S.. Lawyers, Politicians and health care workers be damned!!! It seriously boils down to who really makes the products....not just the supporters. A Lawyer usually doesn't hire another lawyer....a doctor doesn't usually ask for health advise and Politicians think they know everything so.....yes, we need all these workers but, we need manufacturing jobs more than anything else. It drives an economy...it drives a society...it drives importance in the world. Without it we are lost. Unions be damned....they want too much!!!
Uhuh.....have you ever shopped at Wal-Mart? The truth is, you would never buy an "all made in the USA" product because it would not be competitively priced in it's market segment.

Let's look at the Camaro - it is competitively priced right now to the Mustang and Challenger. Assume the manual transmission (Made in Mexico) and the wheels and tires (made in China) were made in the USA - do you think Chevrolet could sell the car for the same price it does now?

Everyone who thinks you should be putting up protectionist walls should go back to school. GM sells more vehicles outside of the United States then within it. Think about that for a bit and then think about how many American jobs would be lost if everyone in those other countries stopped buying GM.
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:43 PM   #86
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You are correct Hylton, but you forget to mention GM has "joint venture" or contract agreements with foreign car manafacturers. Meaning they don't recieve the full benifit of sales or profits. Honda, Toyota, BMW etc...don't have restrictive agreements with U.S. manufacturers....why not? Some protectionist poilicies need to be in place....just as other countries require U.S. companies to meet certain requirements. It should be quid pro quo. I'm not saying put up a wall....just level the playing field a bit.

How can we as U.S. citizens continue to buy if we don't have jobs or income to make the purchase? What is the answer? Do we let foreigners work and make money and sell their goods to us at lower costs? Someday, and soon we won't be able to buy...we'll be jobless and broke!!! There has to be a balance....a fairness in all of this.

a_username: First of all, whoever says we have a free market is frankly stupid.
I said a free market isn't free...re-read my post....

a_username: Protectionism is only another form of inflation. You'll raise prices of all goods, plus you'll see unemployment rise due to the people who relied on jobs provided by foreign companies be reduced.
This is an amazing statement....Americans working for foreign companies (who make profit and take it back to their shores at our cost) will loose jobs. These same foreign companies/countries practice protectionist policies. Protectionism has not inflated the economies of Japan, China or Europe. Though the world is seeing a decline in sales and profits the U.S. seems to be getting the worst of it. If we fall....the end is near. I don't see it getting better....it will get a lot worse. God help us! I don't claim to know it all or have all the answers...I'm just watching, waiting and praying....alot. Peace!
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:22 PM   #87
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You are correct Hylton, but you forget to mention GM has "joint venture" or contract agreements with foreign car manafacturers. Meaning they don't recieve the full benifit of sales or profits. Honda, Toyota, BMW etc...don't have restrictive agreements with U.S. manufacturers....why not? Some protectionist poilicies need to be in place....just as other countries require U.S. companies to meet certain requirements. It should be quid pro quo. I'm not saying put up a wall....just level the playing field a bit.

How can we as U.S. citizens continue to buy if we don't have jobs or income to make the purchase? What is the answer? Do we let foreigners work and make money and sell their goods to us at lower costs? Someday, and soon we won't be able to buy...we'll be jobless and broke!!! There has to be a balance....a fairness in all of this.

a_username: First of all, whoever says we have a free market is frankly stupid.
I said a free market isn't free...re-read my post....

a_username: Protectionism is only another form of inflation. You'll raise prices of all goods, plus you'll see unemployment rise due to the people who relied on jobs provided by foreign companies be reduced.
This is an amazing statement....Americans working for foreign companies (who make profit and take it back to their shores at our cost) will loose jobs. These same foreign companies/countries practice protectionist policies. Protectionism has not inflated the economies of Japan, China or Europe. Though the world is seeing a decline in sales and profits the U.S. seems to be getting the worst of it. If we fall....the end is near. I don't see it getting better....it will get a lot worse. God help us! I don't claim to know it all or have all the answers...I'm just watching, waiting and praying....alot. Peace!
I realize what you said, but never did I state it was you who I was referring too. You might need to re-read my post.

Complacency and the "everybody else is doing it" isn't support for any argument. However, I like how you ignored the rest of the probable strings of events that would take place from "protectionism." I've always thought it ironic how it claims to protect your economy, but yet economists have always shown it has done the exact opposite. The "economists" such as the Keynesians, Socialists, and Interventionists are more or less anti-economists, considering their whole argument are based on false assumptions of human action. Regardless, this form of inflation does not happen immediately, but it will raise the price of goods. Protectionism hasn't hurt China? It wasn't until they lifted tariffs and embraced capitalist principles that led them to become the more successful economy they are now. Protectionism, among other antieconomic policies, has led Japan's public debt to be nearly 200% of their GDP, and most of the European Union is in worse economic shape than the US. Why are you trying to follow the lead of inevitable failure, is it because ONE Japanese automotive company is doing well?

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