Just one more reason to hate the UAW!!!!

[upheval]

Well gents we might not get to see the 5th gen after all. I just saw this on the msnbc front page "A $14 billion bailout for U.S. automakers breaks down in the Senate after UAW refuses to accept wage cuts." I have stated for months now how the UAW is choking the life out of the American auto industry and it looks like they are going to continue thier choke hold until the last breath of GM. I guess no job is better then a pay cut. FOOK U UAW!!!
:padd le:

[Mindz]

Sorry, but there's like 4 other threads on this topic already.

[B2E2RUN]

Originally Posted by Mindz

Sorry, but there's like 4 other threads on this topic already.

I will see your 4 and add about 20 more! I am with you, these are all redundant!

[fbodfather]

slow down -

While I do not agree with the Union on many issues - they've agreed to take many concessions -- but a few Senators wanted it NOW...........and for once I agree with Ron Gettelfinger.........this has to involve a lot of paycuts and such...........

Let me ask you something:

Why is it that we would want to cut the paychecks for American Workers -- when FOREIGN governments close their markets to us using tarriffs and any number of ways to keep us out of their markets?

Why would you want to contribute to the paychecks of, oh - say the KOREANS-- what have THEY done for us lately?

Remember - the paychecks that go to - oh......say, Lordstown, Ohio Assembly workers --- put money into the local economy in Ohio - -pay for trips to places like Disneyworld - purchase goods and services from many other Americans -- THINK ABOUT IT!

We have SENATORS saying that the Big Three are 'bloated' and are 'incompetent' --

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, SENATOR SHELBY -- YOU AND YOUR COHORTS HAVE PUT THIS COUNTRY INTO TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DEBT -- YOU GAVE -- YES gave -- NOT loaned - GAVE -- DIAMLER AND HONDA AND HYUNDAI NEARLY A BILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD IN YOUR STATE - -
YOU PAY ILLEGAL ALIENNS WELFARE BENEFITS -- YOU SPEND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PORKBARREL SPENDING - AND YOU VOTE YOURSELVES PAY RAISES AND HAVE THE WORLD'S BEST BENEFITS AND RETIREMENT PACKAGES -- AND YOU SAY THAT THE BIG THREE ARE BLOATED AND THAT NO ONE WANTS THEIR CARS AND TRUCKS???????

IF EVERYONE ON THIS SITE IS NOT ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY INCENSED AT OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS - THEN I GIVE THIS COUNTRY LESS THAN 10 YEARS BEFORE WE IMPLODE UPON OURSELVES.................

[Croathlete]

I think it's pretty clear that politicians only care about themselves and their wallets. As long as they get paid, they don't give a rat's ass what happens to this country.

[Camaro_Corvette]

On all of that, even the last sentence.

[TomServo]

If President Bush directs that $15B be taken from the TARP, given the current "burn rate" of these entities, just what will that do for THEM and US???

Will all their ill's be cured in 60 days and able to stand on their own?? I don't know what will be different for them in 60 days can someone tell me what will CHANGE in 60 days???

[cam-up]

thank your UAW when your without a job, go see what they will do for you then, for the love of god, 70 dollars and hour,its a lazy monkey job, what srcew a few bolts, and get that kind of pay, good for the UAW, but they better get back to earth, or they will be in the umemployment line, so go ahead be greddy, and i keep defending this country. good luck, in the end they will get a hand out, then in 60 days it all starts over

[Scott@Bjorn3D]

Originally Posted by TomServo

If President Bush directs that $15B be taken from the TARP, given the current "burn rate" of these entities, just what will that do for THEM and US???

Will all their ill's be cured in 60 days and able to stand on their own?? I don't know what will be different for them in 60 days can someone tell me what will CHANGE in 60 days???

The change will be new Congress and new President. Obama will not let them fail on his watch if he wants to even think about a second term.

[Scott@Bjorn3D]

Originally Posted by cam-up

thank your UAW when your without a job, go see what they will do for you then, for the love of god, 70 dollars and hour,its a lazy monkey job, what srcew a few bolts, and get that kind of pay, good for the UAW, but they better get back to earth, or they will be in the umemployment line, so go ahead be greddy, and i keep defending this country. good luck, in the end they will get a hand out, then in 60 days it all starts over

The 70.00 an hour is nuts but that is what it cost the company. Not what the employee sees in a paycheck. Out of that is all the retirement, health and union dues.

[Chevyrocker]

I've posted so many times on so many sites about the UAW. I think I'll hold my thoughts this time...

[a6pk2go]

I think they make closer to $48-49 an hr but the benefits get them to around $70 so when they can cut that they can also cut the cost of the NEW CAMARO IMHO to where more of us can afford to get what we really want and deserve. I think Toyota makes about $28-29 an hr but I don't have the source as I hear it on a talk radio station and my number may be off a little but not a whole lot. It is still a lot more than I make and I wish they can come to their senses and realize it's no fun standing in line at the unemployment office to get a smaller ck.

Here is one source: http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...U4NGNhNWI5MjI=
Wednesday, December 10, 2008



How Much Do UAW Workers Really Make? [Stephen Spruiell]


New York Times business columnist David Leonhardt tackles the question today and concludes that the oft-cited figure of $73 per hour is misleading:

The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.

The crucial point, though, is this $15 isn’t mainly a reflection of how generous the retiree benefits are. It’s a reflection of how many retirees there are. [emp. added] The Big Three built up a huge pool of retirees long before Honda and Toyota opened plants in this country. You’d never know this by looking at the graphic behind Wolf Blitzer on CNN last week, contrasting the “$73/hour” pay of Detroit’s workers with the “up to $48/hour” pay of workers at the Japanese companies.

But Heritage analyst James Sherk says this just isn't true:

The hourly benefit figures the Detroit automakers report covers the cost of current and future benefits earned by actively working employees. It does not include the cost of paying health benefits and pensions to current retirees. [emp. added]

To back this up, Sherk points out that:

The Detroit automakers pay similar wages at each company despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for... General Motors has far more retirees per active worker than Ford or Chrysler. For each active worker at GM, there were 3.8 retirees or dependants in 2006. At Chrysler this ratio was half as much: two retirees for each worker. At Ford there were only 1.6 retirees per worker. If the hourly labor costs included retiree benefits, hourly wages at GM would be much higher than at either Ford or Chrysler.

But this is not the case. General Motors did not have the highest hourly labor costs despite having more retirees. Chrysler paid $2.60 an hour more in labor costs in 2006 than GM did. Ford paid only $2.75 an hour less than GM did, despite having half as many retirees relative to workers to provide for. All three automakers had roughly the same hourly labor costs despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Hourly labor costs account for the expense of providing wages and benefits to current workers but do not include legacy costs.

Sherk makes a strong case, but maybe I'm missing something. Who's right?


12/10 10:41 AM

[Scott@Bjorn3D]

Also the pay on the Camaro is totally different , UAW not involved since it is built in Canada. They have a better deal with the Canada's union.

[Cleric]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

slow down -

While I do not agree with the Union on many issues - they've agreed to take many concessions -- but a few Senators wanted it NOW...........and for once I agree with Ron Gettelfinger.........this has to involve a lot of paycuts and such...........

They did agree to finally take concessions. But they waited a LONG time.

They pushed for the job banks to pay people for not doing something. Granted I am not sure how smart GM was in agreeing to this, but what are you going to do if you are a high fixed cost company and your labor is demanding it or they do not work. They have been living the life off of the BIG 3 and it has now caught up to them.

I think that there should be something for the big 3. I think, if it comes to it, them going under there would be a far reaching effect to the economy that will bring a lot of others down.

But lets be honest. I would be willing to support a much larger bailout if include making the big 3 a right to work company with no unions. Not all unions are bad, and certianly some of them work very well with mgmt. However unions like the UAW bleed companies dry and does not allow for flexability.



I better watch my back for going agaisnt the father. I just hope I have an opportunity to support your product.


Edit: Fixed typographical errors

[TomServo]

Originally Posted by Scott@Bjorn3D

The change will be new Congress and new President. Obama will not let them fail on his watch if he wants to even think about a second term.

And that FIXES what??? But I think we all the answer - nothing. The can get's kicked down the road for yet another "cash" infusion. Notice I didn't say LOAN or BAIL OUT, trying to be PC.

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by cam-up

thank your UAW when your without a job, go see what they will do for you then, for the love of god, 70 dollars and hour,its a lazy monkey job, what srcew a few bolts, and get that kind of pay, good for the UAW, but they better get back to earth, or they will be in the umemployment line, so go ahead be greddy, and i keep defending this country. good luck, in the end they will get a hand out, then in 60 days it all starts over

I think the UAW just needs to GTFO. No use for them anymore !!

Crowley

[Mr. Wyndham]

Reading anti-UAW posts....never gets old.....

I agree with Scott. Congress is full of absolute idiots.

The UAW is NOT holding this up; so don't even try to pass the blame on them. It was CONGRESS idea to seek a date to the pay cuts...I don't know the story behind why a date couldn't be given, but I'm sure there's a decent reason...you don't refuse something so trivial when there's so much at stake for nothing. But even so, suddenely our government sits at the bargaining table?? This isn't the UAWs fault this time...not in the least; right now, in this instance; it is CONGRESS' fault.

[rmyers]

I am absolutley positively disgusted with our elected officials. I am also positively disgusted with the negative effect that unions have had on our country as a whole. While actual wages may be in line with those of other foreign mfg. workers, it is the legacy costs that are killing GM. If any of the Big 3 companies fail, I will place blame squarely on management and uaw, because leadership in both failed to see a long term vision that what they were doing was unsustainable. When the recession hit, it was straw that broke the camels back.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Reading anti-UAW posts....never gets old.....

I agree with Scott. Congress is full of absolute idiots.

The UAW is NOT holding this up; so don't even try to pass the blame on them. CONGRESS is holding this up.

I think this is turning into good old fashioned union busting.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by rmyers

I am also positively disgusted with the negative effect that unions have had on our country as a whole.

Outside of the big 3 where have unions been so bad. And don't forget that they be UAW but they have more than just automotive workers. They also represent workers at ag and construction plants. I am not the biggest union supporter in fact I really don't support unions but I think the anti-UAW movement is going to far.

[StuMac]

Originally Posted by TomServo

If President Bush directs that $15B be taken from the TARP, given the current "burn rate" of these entities, just what will that do for THEM and US???

Will all their ill's be cured in 60 days and able to stand on their own?? I don't know what will be different for them in 60 days can someone tell me what will CHANGE in 60 days???

They will probably have enough debt forgiveness and UAW negotiations to limp along at almost no burn until the credit markets open up and they can start making money again. Not sure the source or the thread I first saw it, but there are rumours that GM was actually making profit at the beginning of the year.

[edog]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

slow down -

While I do not agree with the Union on many issues - they've agreed to take many concessions -- but a few Senators wanted it NOW...........and for once I agree with Ron Gettelfinger.........this has to involve a lot of paycuts and such...........

Let me ask you something:

Why is it that we would want to cut the paychecks for American Workers -- when FOREIGN governments close their markets to us using tarriffs and any number of ways to keep us out of their markets?

Why would you want to contribute to the paychecks of, oh - say the KOREANS-- what have THEY done for us lately?

Remember - the paychecks that go to - oh......say, Lordstown, Ohio Assembly workers --- put money into the local economy in Ohio - -pay for trips to places like Disneyworld - purchase goods and services from many other Americans -- THINK ABOUT IT!

We have SENATORS saying that the Big Three are 'bloated' and are 'incompetent' --

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, SENATOR SHELBY -- YOU AND YOUR COHORTS HAVE PUT THIS COUNTRY INTO TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DEBT -- YOU GAVE -- YES gave -- NOT loaned - GAVE -- DIAMLER AND HONDA AND HYUNDAI NEARLY A BILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD IN YOUR STATE - -
YOU PAY ILLEGAL ALIENNS WELFARE BENEFITS -- YOU SPEND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PORKBARREL SPENDING - AND YOU VOTE YOURSELVES PAY RAISES AND HAVE THE WORLD'S BEST BENEFITS AND RETIREMENT PACKAGES -- AND YOU SAY THAT THE BIG THREE ARE BLOATED AND THAT NO ONE WANTS THEIR CARS AND TRUCKS???????

IF EVERYONE ON THIS SITE IS NOT ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY INCENSED AT OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS - THEN I GIVE THIS COUNTRY LESS THAN 10 YEARS BEFORE WE IMPLODE UPON OURSELVES.................

As you have a point.

I do not think anyone want the American auto worker to take a paycut. They want the UAW to take a cut. I believe the American Auto Worker should draw in a very reasonable income. Just shave off the dues it pays to the UAW so the pay per hour to that employee is not inflated. Shave off some of the benefits and turn the company profitable again. Help it be competitive in the market.

Let's face it. Unions have negotiated (strong armed at times) to get some benefits which put a huge strain on companies in this market. Release companies from these responsibilities as other companies started to do 30 years ago. The unions are the ones in control of this negotiation because union workers pay for them to be. Well, the unions have done a great job don't you think? (NOT!)

I agree with you...Congress is out of control, and has been for a long time. I agree the southern states pay to much money for foreign businesses in this contry. I also agree they could have bent just slightly to help this country out at a time of great dispair. I am republican, and will most likely re-evaluate my position within this near future. My own party makes me hang my head in shame. They are thinking of their own political stances on wether they were involved in the decision process and how they can teach the other side of the room a lesson. They are not thinking of what is best for the country.

GM should declare bankruptcy...I will still by my car and future American autos. When they go bankrupt the should get rid of the UAW. The best of the best auto worker will survive. Poor performers will go find what they like to become better employees and help themselves live their lives.

[Georgie]

did they agree to it before the bill went to the floor? i think they should take a wage cut personally, and if they did agree to it before it went to the floor then they are at fault for going back on what they said, sorry.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Georgie

did they agree to it before the bill went to the floor? i think they should take a wage cut personally, and if they did agree to it before it went to the floor then they are at fault for going back on what they said, sorry.

They did agree to concessions and wage cuts before all this, they agreed to more during all of this....and now a decent portion of Congress wants even MORE...to this, the UAW president Ron Gettlefinger apparently said "no"...(personally, I would have added "are you f'n insane??!")........

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Reading anti-UAW posts....never gets old.....

I agree with Scott. Congress is full of absolute idiots.

The UAW is NOT holding this up; so don't even try to pass the blame on them. It was CONGRESS idea to seek more...re-read that: MORE concessions. Suddenely they sit at the bargaining table?? This isn't the UAWs fault this time...not in the least; right now, in this instance; it is CONGRESS' fault.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

They did agree to concessions and wage cuts before all this, they agreed to more during all of this....and now a decent portion of Congress wants even MORE...to this, the UAW president Ron Gettlefinger apparently said "no"...(personally, I would have added "are you f'n insane??!")........

I'm not picking a fight here. I'm truly puzzled. Why is it so bad to ask the unions to commit to a date when they will restructure their sallaries?

If I'm not mistaken that is the issue with the Congress.