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Old 09-13-2010, 11:56 AM   #1
TinyToasta
 
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ARH Headers & MTI Cam using stock mufflers (LS3) - Help!

Hi guys,

I'm planning on putting some headers and a cam on my LS3, whilst keeping the stock mufflers.

Why keeping the stock mufflers you ask?
I'm living in Germany - the country with the most rigid and admittedly stupid legislation on how loud a car is supposed to be.

My current set-up is a Volant CAI, SLP Loudmouth II (Axle-back) and a custome tune, pulling 419rwhp / 459rwtq. Noweeds will be added in the next couple of days (just for fun of course, good to have that "cops-in-proximity" switch)




The plan is to add an MTI Racing Cam Stage 2 (Stage 3 likely if it makes technical sense), the MTI LS Valvetrain Package, MSD Coils and the ARH Header System (1 7/8'' catted with X-Pipe - p/n CA201078W/C) and the to put the stock mufflers back on (the noweeds would stay on just for the fun of it...)

Questions are as following:
- Has anyone tried a similar set-up (with LS3 stock mufflers)?
- Key question: How loud would this system be compared to a stock set-up, or to a stock set-up with LMII Axle-back?
- How much hp would get lost using the stock mufflers on such a set-up? (Goal is to get close/exceed to the 500hp barrier)
- Has anyone found a soundfile/video on a similar set-up (cut-outs closed of course...)?


Might be an exotic setup, maybe that's why I haven't found a helpful thread (yet)...


Any guidance and help is well appreciated!

Greetz from across the great pond!
tee
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:05 PM   #2
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I had the exact same set up for the most part. I have the MTI stage 2 and the ARH LT's. the car was louder, but not that noticible, sounds like a deep growl at idle. I actually wanted the car louder and went to Borla atak axle back after driving with the stock mufflers for a few months. now it's a lot louder. not sure on the power gains, when I had mine done, I also added the maggie so mine is different. I was pleased with stock, didn't like the huge mufflers hanging below car though.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:43 PM   #3
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TinyToasta, The stock mufflers will rob no power. They will be relatively quiet at idle and cruise but really come on under hard acceleration. Our ARH axle back is a great alternative if you don't want any rasp, which the stock mufflers seem to have under hard acceleration. The ARH mufflers won't get you harrassed when cruising around town but will shake the walls when you're banging gears. Bottom line, either will work but the ARH system doesn't rasp. Hope this helps.

Nick
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.R. Headers View Post
TinyToasta, The stock mufflers will rob no power. They will be relatively quiet at idle and cruise but really come on under hard acceleration. Our ARH axle back is a great alternative if you don't want any rasp, which the stock mufflers seem to have under hard acceleration. The ARH mufflers won't get you harrassed when cruising around town but will shake the walls when you're banging gears. Bottom line, either will work but the ARH system doesn't rasp. Hope this helps.

Nick
That helps a lot, thx Nick.

I'm really leaning towards going for the whole thing (Cam / Headers). Starting off with the LMII on and switching to OEM mufflers if noise is getting "out of control". The cam just might add that crucial idle noise, without taking it beyond at higher revs... sure sounds like a plan to me, as long as it's just a tad above the "reasonably silly" German level

The stage2 or stage3 question is still bugging me, though! Stage3 would surely take me closer to 500hp I guess, but is maybe just about too much....
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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:14 AM   #5
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You will see how the stage3 will work within that setup in October. ;-)

I've choosen quite the same setup, without LTs but race cats from solo performance. GMPP street legal exhaust and I hope too that the car wont get to loud for German purposes.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luttinger View Post
You will see how the stage3 will work within that setup in October. ;-)

I've choosen quite the same setup, without LTs but race cats from solo performance. GMPP street legal exhaust and I hope too that the car wont get to loud for German purposes.
Can't wait to hear the "White Lady" then - good luck @Kraftwerk

Soundwise both LT headers and high-flow cats have their share on the overall loudness of the car. But I'd assume that the cats are adding more db than the LTs , right?
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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:21 AM   #7
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Right... the stock cats are real db-eaters. ;-)
The LTs will only influence the sound itself. The GMPP Exhaust is near to the stock exhaust, so I hope it will still be driveably after installing the solo cats.
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:40 AM   #8
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I'm planning this same set up with MTI, using the stage 3 cam and valve train kit with ported heads and tune... most likely will be adding the CORSA or MAGNA FLow axel back system. From what I understand the stock mufflers are way too raspy at WOT. The CORSA eliminates the cabin drone and the Magna's... we'll they really bark a deep intimidating bark.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:17 PM   #9
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I've been doing some research on the Magnaflow Street Series as an add-on to the above set-up. Looks like this is an obvious replacement for my Loudmouth II Axle-Backs, and by far the better option than switching back to the OEM mufflers.

This should milden the overall sound whilst maintaining the deep and not too loud tone I'm looking for

Has anyone done the same sort of set-up? Dynoed? Videos?
MTI Stage2 Cam
ARH 1 7/8'' LTs, HighFlow Cats & X-Pipe
Magnaflow Street Series Axle Back

I'd also be curious if someone has opted for the MTI Stage3 Cam (again dynoed, videos...)

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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:57 PM   #10
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wait.... you were pulling 419 rwhp, and 459 rwtq


thats not possible with just a axle back and CAI and tune maybe in Germany but not here lol
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:29 PM   #11
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Odd thing I know, we've been completely baffled after all the pulls we did.

I pulled 622Nm several times, that should be 458,7 ft-lbs, right?

The shop where we tuned and dynoed the car is one of the most renown over here in Germany, with loads of experience in US-cars, I do trust them blindly... They have never seen similar results on such an engine, so they tested it times after times with no changes....


although I know that dynos do vary quite significantly, we had some other LS3s pulling on the same dyno with similar mods&conditions, with results you'd expect from this engine in a range of 377 to 401 ft-lbs...

I'm pretty sure that the fuel quality here in Germany makes a significant difference in combination with the very thorough tuning we did over 2 days... not to forget the brutal break-in period this car had from the very beginning

Let's see how the next pulls go after adding the LTs and the cam....
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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:39 PM   #12
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with those LT's does the cats help in keeping it from being louder or are they just for emissions?
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyToasta View Post
Odd thing I know, we've been completely baffled after all the pulls we did.

I pulled 622Nm several times, that should be 458,7 ft-lbs, right?

The shop where we tuned and dynoed the car is one of the most renown over here in Germany, with loads of experience in US-cars, I do trust them blindly... They have never seen similar results on such an engine, so they tested it times after times with no changes....


although I know that dynos do vary quite significantly, we had some other LS3s pulling on the same dyno with similar mods&conditions, with results you'd expect from this engine in a range of 377 to 401 ft-lbs...

I'm pretty sure that the fuel quality here in Germany makes a significant difference in combination with the very thorough tuning we did over 2 days... not to forget the brutal break-in period this car had from the very beginning

Let's see how the next pulls go after adding the LTs and the cam....
unless europe has a different way of reading power... even with great fuel, stock ls3s are putting down like 350-360 stock..... axle back does not give any gains, is its only the CAI, and a tune giving you 100TQ over stock not possible


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106073


this guy is using a supercharger, CAI , headers , tune and look what numbers he is getting
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010 2-Tone View Post
with those LT's does the cats help in keeping it from being louder or are they just for emissions?
Well, in my case it sure is both. No Cats could be seen as tax fraud over here, and too much sound is just attracting the wrong sort of individuals
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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mikeSS View Post
unless europe has a different way of reading power... even with great fuel, stock ls3s are putting down like 350-360 stock..... axle back does not give any gains, is its only the CAI, and a tune giving you 100TQ over stock not possible
Yepp, you're right our reading is different, so I guess I was lost in translation.

622Nm = 459 ft-lbs at the flywheel - my bad, sorry

with 8% of torque being lost through transmission I end up with 422 rwtq, still too good to be true for a almost stock car...
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custom build forged LSA, 376ci, TVS2300@15psi, 675rwhp/676ft-lbs, built by Henrik Racing, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing
JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive
Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, DSS 1000hp Axles
CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyToasta View Post
Yepp, you're right our reading is different, so I guess I was lost in translation.

622Nm = 459 ft-lbs at the flywheel - my bad, sorry

with 8% of torque being lost through transmission I end up with 422 rwtq, still too good to be true for a almost stock car...
the dyno probably reads high, there nothing much you can do about it... but at least your car is getting tuned
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:11 PM   #17
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You can look at the photo album on my home page for pictures of dyno pulls with similar set up. Still running stock mufflers.

My garage lists all mods and horsepower and quarter mile times.
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