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Old 09-20-2010, 10:10 AM   #18
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that's all well and good,however saying that the parts are 'as good" as anything on the market is NOT CONFIDENCE INSPIRING,because everything made today has a made in china label attached,and it is common knowledge that things produced in china are made very "economically",and have been determined to have "quality control" issues!..it makes me feel uncomfortable as well,but harley davidson has some parts made in china too,and who woulda thunk?
I hope you don't own a cell phone.

Just because somethings made in China doesn't automatically make it shit. Quality control is the key and you have to trust that GM is checking these parts before they go on the cars. It's been shown over and over that most aftermarket wheels are made in places like China. Also, few of us could afford a car that was made/manufactured exclusively in the US. This is why I laugh everytime I read someones post about not buying something because it isn't american made.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:51 AM   #19
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wow 261 lbs of wheels and tires!!
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:25 PM   #20
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This is a great overview. Suspension and angle of trajectory are often the most overlooked and/or ill changed aspects of an automobile by DIY'ers. We see it daily with lifted and lowered cars. Keeping the symmetry and balance of the suspension is just as important as a good brake system and a tight steering box. It is amazing what a little tweak in tire height or elevation change will do to the handling characteristics, including braking and traction. Thanks for this link and to the writer/photographer for some good down and dirty basics.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
I hope you don't own a cell phone.

Just because somethings made in China doesn't automatically make it shit. Quality control is the key and you have to trust that GM is checking these parts before they go on the cars. It's been shown over and over that most aftermarket wheels are made in places like China. Also, few of us could afford a car that was made/manufactured exclusively in the US. This is why I laugh everytime I read someones post about not buying something because it isn't american made.
I agree with your statement about QA/QI in the parts department. However, their are MANY factors that go into making something in China (or any other country) too. Just because it is made cheaper doesn't mean it is better. A friend of mine is a forensics inspector for a major manufacturer here in the U.S. His company moved much of their production to China and now they are paying the price. The failures are KILLING their multi-million dollar business (pneumatic/hydraulic applications equipment) of which they have lion's share globally. The single underlying reason...CONTROL. They cannot control production (quantity and quality) as easily as they could in the U.S. There is something to be said about Made in the U.S.A. back in the day when things were built to last and not be disposable.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Orange Krate View Post
I agree with your statement about QA/QI in the parts department. However, their are MANY factors that go into making something in China (or any other country) too. Just because it is made cheaper doesn't mean it is better. A friend of mine is a forensics inspector for a major manufacturer here in the U.S. His company moved much of their production to China and now they are paying the price. The failures are KILLING their multi-million dollar business (pneumatic/hydraulic applications equipment) of which they have lion's share globally. The single underlying reason...CONTROL. They cannot control production (quantity and quality) as easily as they could in the U.S. There is something to be said about Made in the U.S.A. back in the day when things were built to last and not be disposable.
Orange Krate...i know exactly what you mean. i work for a company that has almost all of its factories in china or taiwan. I am engineer and part of the quality control for my company. It is very difficult to keep quality up when your parts are made in china. 90% of the problems are caused by cheap chinese material. The other 10% is because the chinese just dont care about quality control and testing of parts. You have to watch them 24 hours a day. We are not a big company and nothing close to the size of gm, but we do work with large chinese corporations. From what i have seen they are all the same.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:50 PM   #23
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excellent work

Thanks for the very through write up.The pics are excellent and I really enjoyed the article.Nicely put together.Informative articles such as this are just another reason why this site is the best I am TOTALLY
ADDICTED to camaro5!
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:23 PM   #24
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Thanks for the very through write up.The pics are excellent and I really enjoyed the article.Nicely put together.Informative articles such as this are just another reason why this site is the best I am TOTALLY
ADDICTED to camaro5!

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:46 PM   #25
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wow 261 lbs of wheels and tires!!
Yeah, thats what I said. Thats alot of rotating mass.
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:57 AM   #26
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Nicely done... thanks!
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:29 PM   #27
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Great post on the 2010 SS Suspension!
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:48 PM   #28
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Just to kick in on the products made out of Chinesium...

I know a Motorola engineer who's CONSTANTLY on the phone (ironically) with his Hong Kong counterparts on quality issues with their radio and cell phone technology. He said that the control of the quality is the issue, as was stated earlier. It's not that the Chinese CAN'T make quality stuff, it's just there's a whole lot of "what's in it for me besides 3 bucks per day?" mentality. He said a lot of workers that make the parts, can't even afford to buy any of the finished products. So if there's no "skin in the game", or ownership sort of feeling, so there's not an emphasis for them to be enticed to do well. Getting by just enough to get your paycheck is fine by a lot of Chinese workers. Hopefully that will change.
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:45 PM   #29
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Just to kick in on the products made out of Chinesium...

I know a Motorola engineer who's CONSTANTLY on the phone (ironically) with his Hong Kong counterparts on quality issues with their radio and cell phone technology. He said that the control of the quality is the issue, as was stated earlier. It's not that the Chinese CAN'T make quality stuff, it's just there's a whole lot of "what's in it for me besides 3 bucks per day?" mentality. He said a lot of workers that make the parts, can't even afford to buy any of the finished products. So if there's no "skin in the game", or ownership sort of feeling, so there's not an emphasis for them to be enticed to do well. Getting by just enough to get your paycheck is fine by a lot of Chinese workers. Hopefully that will change.
The question is why? The easy answer is price. It goes much deeper.

If you look at the wages being paid in the newest USA based import plants you will find they are paying fast food wages to non-union auto workers. The ONLY USA based import automotive plant to make the top ten in the Harbour Report was the now defunct GM / Toyota NUMMI plant staffed by UAW workers. The sad fact is we have imported a lower standard of living and moved jobs autoworker jobs from the unions. There was no job growth with the import auto manufacturers, just relocation of automotive jobs at a lower pay rate and people getting by just enough from pay check to pay check.

Then we have a slew of environmental laws that make manufacturing more expensive in the USA than most every other country in the world. Add to that labor laws and taxes that make businesses more expensive to operate in the USA than most any where else in the world and you have the conditions for even less manufacturing in the USA.

Excuse me while I jack this thread to promote new tax and trade polices for the USA. As long as the government gives huge tax incentives to foreign companies moving into the USA while raising taxes on existing USA based businesses you will continue to see more jobs in manufacturing lost to foreign countries. Add to that the OPEN USA markets and compare them to foreign markets that add taxes, tariffs or onerous inspections to imports that make it next to impossible to sell our goods in foreign markets and more jobs are lost.

The debate should not be focused on the quality of parts made outside the USA. The debate and criticism should be directed at the last 30 years of government policy under both Republicans and Democrats that have gutted manufacturing in the USA while opening our markets to every country for imports at the direct expense of the American working men and women. There is an election just over a month away. While it is important to focus on domestic issues in this dire economy, we should demand the debate include a complete overhaul of our tax and trade structure. Only when changes are made to these policies will you see a return of domestic manufacturing.


Sorry for the rant. I'll go back on topic. Here is a link to The Book on 5th Gen Suspension.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:59 PM   #30
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Very informative writeup!!
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:47 PM   #31
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I wish gm would switch back to SLA supension... I think they could re tweak and make better than it ever was and the could streamline the process and make it work over more platforms, And the weight you could cut using tubular arms they could defiantly mass produced via the brazen method of welding i.e. drop in sold weld material throw in jig thrown and a 2000 degree flame, heat temper done....... if they don't want to use the brazen method and kill the heat treating and used robots to do it you could make them almost as quick maybe what 1 min longer via robot? than stamping?
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:54 PM   #32
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I wish gm would switch back to SLA supension... I think they could re tweak and make better than it ever was and the could streamline the process and make it work over more platforms, And the weight you could cut using tubular arms they could defiantly mass produced via the brazen method of welding i.e. drop in sold weld material throw in jig thrown and a 2000 degree flame, heat temper done....... if they don't want to use the brazen method and kill the heat treating and used robots to do it you could make them almost as quick maybe what 1 min longer via robot? than stamping?
The 5th Gen is the best handling Camaro GM has built. Why do I say that? because the best of the best Pro Touring Cars with are being out performed by Pedders Camaro on stock 5th Gen arms. While everyone likes to point to the increased weight of the 5th Gen IRS, no one seems to pay much attention to the built in strength and safety of the 5th Gen.

5th Gen Build Strength / Crash Test Thread

Here are the pictures from that thread.










The crash test videos are dramatic and I recommend you watch them. For performance all I can say is it doesn't get much better than this.

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Old 09-27-2010, 05:06 PM   #33
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Pete don't forget that the protouring cars are all driven by the car owners, engineers, and builders not top notch professional drivers. Not trying to take anything away from your car or the protouring guys. Just saying.
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:26 PM   #34
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Pete don't forget that the protouring cars are all driven by the car owners, engineers, and builders not top notch professional drivers. Not trying to take anything away from your car or the protouring guys. Just saying.
That is true, but two of them were good enough to be faster than we are at the Optima Challenge even with Paul Tracy driving our car. We made some revisions to the car because of that experience with the Pro Touring drivers. Some of the Pro Touring Drivers are very good.

Drivers do make a difference and that is why we posted the results of race cars and other professionally driven super cars at Gingerman in addition to the Pro Touring results. The 5th Gen suspension design can hold its own against most anything -- with a little help from Pedders.
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