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Old 12-19-2008, 11:18 PM   #76
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OK,

Here's the Mod intervention warning.

One post has already been deleted for crossing the site rules here. We pride ourselves on being respectful in debate whether we agree or not. So, keep it that way.

If you don't like CEO's, that's fine. If you think blaming the CEO's is immature, that's also fine. If both side wanna duke it out here... Guess what? That's fine too. But the instant it gets personal, disrespectful, or antagonistic. We'll shut it down and those that are out of line will be notified.

So, stay true to the maturity of this site and keep it on topic and constructive.
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:26 PM   #77
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And it's not a bailout, it's a loan.

The banking companies and mortgage institutions got a bail out.... no need to be repaid.
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Old 12-20-2008, 01:13 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
The only reason Ford has enough money right now is because they mortgaged practically everything they had.
You are correct sir
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Old 12-20-2008, 03:53 AM   #79
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glad to see both sides come together for this....Barack better continue this unity..
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Old 12-20-2008, 04:53 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry626 View Post
Gm's life should be in their own hands not the government.
Meaning: they got themself in this mess & need to find their way out of it.
That goes for all the "Big Shots" with their big expense accounts, private jets,
outrageous hotel suites, limos & endless list of waste of $$$.
Whilst I understand your sentiment, WHY NOT bitch about the financial big wigs the have screwed up the economy and they got bailed out no questions asked! We could all go further and point the finger at the dopey monkey and puppet on a string who also ruined eveything, who didnt give a crap about the people and who kissed the a$$es of corporations for sheer profit and money in the pocket. What a bloody mess that has to be cleaned up now. I dont care what your views are, were in a mess so PLEASE dont just single out the auto industry!
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:06 AM   #81
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4 more years! 4 more years! Wait, is this considered POLITICAL talk?
Oh POLEAAAAASE!!!

Wait, is this considered POLITICAL talk? LOL!!
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:02 AM   #82
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The real culprits if this mess

1. Unregulated Mortgage Industry (handing out loans left and right, shady mortgage broakers, people wanting more than they can afford)

2. Huge War fiasco (not saying it was right or wrong but costly)

3. surge in gas prices. Remember how great the economy was when gas was under $2.

4. 1 + 2 means less money for consumers to pay bills or spend on groceries, movies, car payments, $4 coffe, etc..)

5. less money in the hands of consumers means les goes into the business industry.

6. Mortgages fail and credit cards dont get paid.

7. Banks in trouble as result of bad debt. Less money loaned out.

8. Fewer loans means fewer large purchases such as cars and trucks.

9. And so here we are here today.
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:49 AM   #83
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This is great news!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:04 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by kinyu View Post
I listen to financial people on news radio pretty frequently, and the general consensus with them seems to be that this money is just a bandaid, and that it doesn't fix the overall/biggest problem GM has, which is the high salary they pay the employees. A company that pays its employees an average of $73 an hour can't compete with companies like Nissan and Toyota who average around $42 an hour. While I know the "financial professionals" are not always correct, this does seem like a valid argument.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/economy/wm2162.cfm
I had read a statement from GM a week or two ago which stated that the average hourly wages for their employees is pretty much in line with Totota workers at some of their senior factories in the US. Both were $29 and change per hour. The difference comes when you consider GM has significantly more employees on pention, and their benifits package is better. With that factored in the difference is $42 per hour for Toyota, and $62 per hour for GM. To me it is pretty clear how you fix that. You stop the pension plan and buy out the senior employees as you can. In fact 80zedder stated in another thread that some of the GM layoffs you read about in the news is GM doing just that. :flag2::flag2::flag2:
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:28 AM   #85
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ford gets a bad rap by GM loyalists and usually is the number 1 target of import drivers but they didn't ask for money upfront and are trying to resurface on their own accord without taxpayer dollars, that's pretty darn good on Ford's part and i'm proud of them for doing so :flag2:
Ford isn't some sort of shining beacon of good judgment, they got lucky. Noone here wants to see any of the Big-3 go down, and anyone with half a lick of sense knows that. Go back to reading MM&FF or whatever it's called and call us when you get done trying to be a martyr.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:04 AM   #86
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Ron G. of the UAW is already intimating that they will not give the concessions the legislation speaks of and they will simply wait until the new President takes office and deal with him. So those who think the UAW will concede, I don't think it will happen. They say they have already made enough concessions and everyone else at the table must make sacrifices. Lets take a look at who is at the table, and what were their roles in causing this situation.

1. Management - They carry a huge responsibilty. They should sacrifice salaries and all non essential assets or liabilities should be sold immediately.
2. Creditors - Well I can't see how they are at fault here, and why should they sacrifice any monetary value owed to them.
3. Suppliers - Again, I can't see how they are at fault. They supplied what was asked and should be able to business with companies that will pay for their goods and services.
4. UAW - For years they have demanded compensation and benefits that far exceed not only the competition but what the job is worth. Big deal, the Jobs Bank was cancelled last month, whoopee!. How long did it go on? All the time sucking huge amounts of cash out of the companies. Their policies and demands have as much to do with this situation as does management's.
5. Federal Government - Well now as a result of the money being given, they are at the table. Personally I can't think of a single positive thing they bring to the table.
6. Stock Holders - Were it not for them there would be no big 3. But they stand to lose and have already lost a bundle.

Who did I miss and what was their role in all of this? What sacrifices should they make.

And as to whether or not we call this a bailout or a loan is to be determined. If it gets paid back, then it will have been a loan, albeit one that our government should not have made, and if it doesn't get paid back, well then it will be called a bailout that ultimately failed.

On a side note, what I find interesting about so many of these threads is that people seem to be basing their decision largely on whether or not it will affect the Camaro being built or the price we might pay for it. This is exactly the type of mentality that has led to so many things that are wrong in this great nation. We have become a society of instant gratification, and wanting nothing to do with making the hard gut wrenching decisions that will affect the lives of our kids and grandkids.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:43 AM   #87
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Keep it clean guys good discussion here so far!!

I'd like to draw your attention to this :
http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/agenci...e4congress.htm

These are the same people, Who told the Big 3 CEO's to get payed $1
These are the same people, Who are telling UAW to get payed less
Essentually they are saying, Big Three need to learn how to save money and run your business, We are going to give our self a raise after GIVING 700 BILLION DOLLARS AWAY......

I think what "I" would say, is how about they learn to lead by example then?

If they understand the word "Leadership" is probably a whole different discussion
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Old 12-20-2008, 11:27 AM   #88
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Individual members are free to refuse their pay increases, and some choose to do so.
Who are these "some"? They should be named and honoured for setting a good example!
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:43 PM   #89
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And it's not a bailout, it's a loan.
Bailout(n) - a rescue, especially a financial rescue.

GM was bailed out by the government because they rescued them finanically. You can call it a loan if you want, but it was a loan that GM had to have or else they'd have gone under. So, it is essentially still a bailout because the government is saving GM. Both GM and the banks were bailed out; however, the terms of what happens after are both different. They were both bailed out.
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:33 PM   #90
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I'm rebadging my car with American flags!
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:37 PM   #91
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Oops, I see that Canada also chipped in some change so looks like I'll have to get a maple leaf from somewhere!
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:42 AM   #92
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Canada is contributing $4

canadian_autoaid
Quote:
Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty have announced a $4-billion aid package for Canada's struggling auto industry.

They said Canada's bailout, which they called a "short term loan," is proportionate to the Detroit Three's Canadian operations, which are estimated to be about 20 per cent of North American production.
The two leaders announced the package on Saturday morning at a joint press conference in Toronto.

Ontario will contribute about $1.3 billion to the package and Ottawa will provide $2.7 billion.

Harper told reporters the aid package "is not a blank cheque" and that he wants to see the car companies and their unions work together to restructure their operations.

"All stakeholders are going have to be part of the solution," Harper said.
The aid package will also:
  • give loan access to auto-parts manufacturers and other businesses that are part of the auto supply industry
  • give additional credit to consumers
GM and Chrysler had said they need credit and loans as they restructure their companies.

Meanwhile, Ford has said it does not need immediate help, but had asked for a line of credit.

Harper said the aid package was part of a "holistic approach" to save an industry that helps provide hundreds of thousands of jobs to Canadians.
full article here: www.ctv.ca: canadian_autoaid
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:55 AM   #93
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Hi everyone,

I'm french but I'm deeply concerned with american economy and in particular the car economy - first because I wanna buy this marvelous camaro here in france, but before all because we use to say here in Europe "when USA sneeze, europe gets a cold..." and it's damn true. your car industry is your spine and I believe Barak obama is gonna make something because bankruptcy is surely not an option and I wouldn't like to see GM or Chrysler in the hands of chinese...
You american are great car makers and you show the entire world that you could make dream cars like the mustang 2010, Challenger or Camaro without the old fuel consumption rates - I am not afraid of the crisis, I'm ready to buy an american car, so if I can do it you can do it too and instead of buying a toyota prius just buy the next Chevrolet Volt or the next hybrid...

Good luck to you and merry Christmas !
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:25 PM   #94
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It's about time. This was long over due. Now people need to go back buying cars so I can get off layoff!
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:26 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by camarolt76 View Post
I had read a statement from GM a week or two ago which stated that the average hourly wages for their employees is pretty much in line with Totota workers at some of their senior factories in the US. Both were $29 and change per hour. The difference comes when you consider GM has significantly more employees on pention, and their benifits package is better. With that factored in the difference is $42 per hour for Toyota, and $62 per hour for GM. To me it is pretty clear how you fix that. You stop the pension plan and buy out the senior employees as you can. In fact 80zedder stated in another thread that some of the GM layoffs you read about in the news is GM doing just that. :flag2::flag2::flag2:
That definitely wouldn't be the popular thing to do, and I'm sure there are a couple people on this board who either get that pension, or have family/friends who do. That being said, GM has to be viable, and because of their generosity in the past, they are not.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by camarolt76 View Post
I had read a statement from GM a week or two ago which stated that the average hourly wages for their employees is pretty much in line with Totota workers at some of their senior factories in the US. Both were $29 and change per hour. The difference comes when you consider GM has significantly more employees on pention, and their benifits package is better. With that factored in the difference is $42 per hour for Toyota, and $62 per hour for GM. To me it is pretty clear how you fix that. You stop the pension plan and buy out the senior employees as you can. In fact 80zedder stated in another thread that some of the GM layoffs you read about in the news is GM doing just that. :flag2::flag2::flag2:
I would look for a neutral parties assessment before something from GM management. They are spin masters.
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Old 12-28-2008, 05:12 PM   #97
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Follow Caterpillar's example for starters...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28351182/

I work very closely with Caterpillar products and was somewhat surprised to see the above article on MSNBC last week. Everyone is getting hit hard but some are in a better position than others...Cat is nowhere near bankrupt but at least they're taking proactive action now instead of waiting until their feet are inches above the flames. I don't recall if their engine factories are union or not but they are spread out (In the US for starters...Georgia, South Carolina, Indiana, and other places globally) so some may be and some may not be. Our service shops in the northern part of the state are union, the shops in the southern part are not.

Anyway, just thought it would be interesting read for people here to see that other companies are cutting back.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:21 PM   #98
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there's a leaked toyota memo, they want to drop the wages to average wages in the state/area a plant is located in

this means 1/2 what they pay now per hour, in order to do this they need UAW weakened/gone.

google news should have a copy of the memo
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