TT question

[metallicide]

Been talking to IPS about the TT system, But had a quick question for you guys. Would a TT be any worse on an engine thats a daily driver than a S/C...this car will be a daily driver for only about 6 months either way. Just curious as the comparison.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by metallicide

Been talking to IPS about the TT system, But had a quick question for you guys. Would a TT be any worse on an engine thats a daily driver than a S/C...this car will be a daily driver for only about 6 months either way. Just curious as the comparison.

Modern systems both S/C and TT are well engineered and should be very reliable. Either should be just fine...

[metallicide]

exactly what I wanted to hear

[axis]

Originally Posted by speedster

Modern systems both S/C and TT are well engineered and should be very reliable. Either should be just fine...

+1

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by metallicide

Been talking to IPS about the TT system, But had a quick question for you guys. Would a TT be any worse on an engine thats a daily driver than a S/C...this car will be a daily driver for only about 6 months either way. Just curious as the comparison.

BTW, you're looking at a nice TT kit!

[radarwz]

I've had both. A Procharger D1 on my '04 GTO LS1 and an APS 1st generation twin turbo kit on my '05 GTO LS2. Both cars were/are daily driven with over 2yrs each (except for over-boosting the turbo car recently...boom!).
Keep the boost reasonable with a good tune and you'll have no issues except tires. lol

[metallicide]

boost will be very reasonable, not going to push it hard, i have no reason too...its more just for fun

[Andro]

Originally Posted by metallicide

boost will be very reasonable, not going to push it hard, i have no reason too...its more just for fun

That's what we all say until we get behind a car with a power adder

[IPS Brandon]

Dynamically twin turbo systems and supercharger systems at the same boost pressure create different loads on the engine. The supercharger system actually will create more load due to the drive off the motor versus the exhaust driven turbos! And so long as the turbo system is using proper parts (Out kit has by far the best components), it will last as long as the car !

Speedster knows

Regards

[Jchaluja]

You will have lots of fun, very reliable, I have a TT Camaro for over a year now....my only advise, don't go over 8-9 psi without forged internals....

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by dracer98

OK - OTK asked for help and an opinion and rather than answer the question you guys say read all the other posts and threads? That’s like going to the dealer for help and the guy telling you - well did you read the manual

So< I will do what he asked and back it up with fact...The question is all about the various 2010 turbo options out there and how reliable can they be.

Today most turbo manufactures make very reliable products - That is not to be confused by the various kit makers. You have many choices and types:

Single top mount
Double top mount
Single bottom mount
Double bottom mount
and some call the muffler turbo type another option

You asked about Fastlane so you already know they offer a single top mount system.
Turbonetics has also developed a single top mount that they claim will ultimately by 50 state legal
Single top mount systems require a cross over pipe that merges all the exhaust flow and energy into the "hot side" of the turbocharger. You basically take all the heat that is radiating out of the heads which is also known as energy and channel it into the turbo.

Twin turbo top mount -
FLP, early on, developed a twin turbo kit that had top mount turbos. If 1 top mount turbo makes heat in the wrong spot then 2 top mount turbos are double trouble. In the case of FLP, it could be quite possibly the most unprofessional kit ever made. It looks like a kindergartener built it. It gives all turbo kits a bad name. This is the only kit I know of that puts the turbos up in your face.

Why I don't particularly care for the top mount design - Like I said it puts all that heat off the cylinder heads right over the valve cover (s) or better said, in the immediate surrounding area of where it is mounted. Take for example the new Turbonetics kit coming down the pike. It mounts the turbo in a location very similar to the Fastlane kit but angles it a slight bit differently a lower in the frame. In other words if the turbo on the Fastlane kit is mounted at 1 0-clock then Turbonetics mounts the turbo at a little less than 2 0-clock and shoves it forward a few inches to keep heat off the front of the engine dress.

Fastlane makes claims that the factory (General Motors) mounts their turbos up high which is actually not the case. But it is a different story for a different thread. Like they say everyone has an opinion on the subject and my opinion is - Don't ever mount a turbocharger with super hot exhaust right next to the spark plug wires, the coils, the valve covers, ABS unit and the likes. You ask why companies do it then. Simple Turbonetics tells you they would prefer to run twins but there is no way to accomplish that 50 state legally. Meaning the law states you cannot move or alter the cats at all. In fact all you guys that purchase bigger after market cats for your cars with headers are still breaking the law. Look it up if you think I am wrong. There is no such thing as a 50 state legal aftermarket performance catalytic converter. Scratch that – if you have over 50,000 miles on your car and you need new cats then you can change them... While changing them, nothing stops you from going bigger. But for the most parts it is not legal. Back to business – Turbonetics marries the exhaust at the front and mounts the single turbo high because in order to build a Y pipe AFTER THE FACTORY CATALYTICs there is no way to get a big enough single turbo under the car. So, it ends up high. Fastlane obviously has the ability to build a twin just as easy as they did the single but I would surmise now that they are pushing the big single it would be a conflicting story to push a twin. Especially when they know the twins can easily make more power in a better package – by package I mean space.

That leads us to Single turbo mounted under the car – like I said – it just doesn’t package right. Sure you could probably wedge a 60mm turbo under the car in the proximity of the front end but the turbo is only good enough to make roughly 550hp at a very high boost - this would not be optimal to say the least.

You could take the STS route and mount a big single towards the back but while your back there you may as well go duels – which is exactly what they do.

So let’s talk about twin muffler type turbos, aka the STS version, when all else fails every car manufacture makes room for a muffler – if there is space for the muffler there is space to take it out and drop in a turbo or 2. That must be STS’s motto. On the dyno, the STS kit proves that a turbo does not really mind pumping through a maze of piping in order to ultimately pressurize the engine. So what is the draw back to the STS method – Turbo lag(The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively by compressing air into the engine (aka) lag is the delay between the instant a car's accelerator is depressed and the time the turbocharger take to make boost and some would say full boost.)Whenever you talk to “anti-turbo” people they want to talk about turbo lag. A better definition would be boost lag – and boost lag can be measured in any compressor application. Certainly the centrifugal blower companies can’t preach about lag because they blowers make boost based solely on engine RPM – that means the turbo makes peak boost sooner and maintains it longer than a centrifugal. The Magnuson, Kenne Bell, Whipple crowd make boost sooner than the turbo and carry it through out the engine RPM but it comes at the cost of crank HP robbed to spin the unit. –

Back on track – The STS kit has more lag then most other twin and single turbo kits because the farther you put the turbos from the exhaust discharge of the heads the more time it makes to get them up in their sweet spot – this is also known as PUMPING LOSS –

Foot Note - Although a turbo's position in the exhaust stream does restrict exhaust flow potential to some extent, the pumping losses are much less than the parasitic drag induced by a conventional supercharger's belt or gears. In a typical gasoline-fueled engine, it's common to see 30 out of every 100 hp added by a belt driven supercharger being wasted turning the drive pulleys and belts; this compares to about 5-10 hp per every 100 suffered as pumping losses by a typically well-designed turbo installation.

Interesting to note: Considered as a system, a good twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a large single turbo system. Additionally, the twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a Magnuson/Kenne Bell/Whipple type blower, and its smaller size compared to a centrifugal supercharger permits higher compressor-wheel rotational speeds and more radical blade-tip curvature that collectively translate into greater pumping efficiency. A large single turbo system radiates heat more in line with that of a non intercooled centrifugal type.

The Twin Turbo set up is often perceived as complex and difficult to install over other systems but that is simply not the case. Sure you need a hoist, lift and or jack stands to install it but once installed it is the most maintenance free and trouble free of them all and that was the real first question – Reliability!.

So let’s talk about all the twin turbo set ups out there:

Granatelli Motor Sports – Everyone Pretty much agrees they have the nicest looking kit out there – should I say just released kit out there They run PTS turbos which are considered to best in the business and I have firsthand knowledge that the PTS 6265 turbo feed 600hp each at moderated boost levels – so this kit is what they say Able to go from Mild to Wild! How can you go wrong with Granatelli, everything they put their minds to usually is top notch – they work with Turbo Tech - that just gives this kit the 1 -2 punch over the rest in my book

Hellion Turbo Systems – They claim to also be shipping and they use 58mm Turbonetics turbos. Turbonetics put a 1 year warranty on all their turbos so that should add some piece of mind. The reviews on these guys are also pretty good so far – although you gotta wonder why they sell turbo kits but race at the track with Centrifugal stuff.

STS – we talked about them. Not sure if a want to spend 8 to 10k for a system that put the air filter right behind the rear tires but I am sure there must be a shroud for that – just not show in the pictures. But again it has the lag issue – good thing about the STS kit, the turbos come after the factory cats so they are as close to 50 state legal as you can get. – If power is not the first priority and you don’t worry about the turbos vacuuming up water from what gets thrown off the tires, this a great system as well

There are other players out there too – you just don’t hear as much because they are not quite there yet.

So while other want to tell you to “look it up” or “make your own choice” I hope this helps you in a cliff notes kind of way.

You can’t go wrong with forced induction on your Camaro and the choices are plenty

Dracer was ahead of the curve

[metallicide]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Well there you have it. Sounds like you are ready for a TT kit. As you know there are a lot of great choice now - who is going to do your install?

A performance shop in STL is doing it for me whenever im ready. His name is Ben Craven at Pur Performance.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by metallicide

A performance shop in STL is doing it for me whenever im ready. His name is Ben Craven at Pur Performance.

Good Luck - Please keep us in mind if there is anything we can do to help.

[FLP]

Twin Turbo is the way to go!!

Sorry, but Dracer was nothing but a talking head for GMS, say he wasn't all you want but I have never seen so much ass kissing in my life.

These are some picture of member 376TT's car on the day it left the shop. just over 600rwhp/600ft/lb of torque with 9#'s and very little timing. This car with "normal" LSx timing would probably make near 700 to the tire. Only way to go is on top, underhood temps are not bad, IAT's are just over ambient, he has driven it all summer in 100+ degree weather without a problem.

Don't mind the manual boost controller in the second pic, it was changed to a AEM Tru-Boost Gauge/Controller shortly after this was taken...

[Granatelli]

Dracer98 is an engineer - his opinion was his own.

He said great things about just about everyone and everything but I agree he was very opinionated when it came to your kit. The pictures you are showing here far and away are cleaner then what you originally presented to all of us. Perhaps you jumped the gun on the first set a few months back.

I can’t comment any further than that. – I am sure everyone here has an opinion

[jordan 572]

Granatellis system is so much cleaner than this. While ! would love to have either I would by far get the granatelli as it looks so clean. Screw top mounts. But there both still badass!!

[IPS Brandon]

phew it would seem I missed the boat on posting pictures.

Really the best photo I can post is the results, because no one can match that compared to our IPS twin turbo system





For the money invested this one of the lesser expensive routes to 650+ wheel hp , no doubt about it, and with our system you have many advantages in our features which will directly benefit you over the competitions!

Regards

[jordan 572]

Originally Posted by IPS Brandon

phew it would seem I missed the boat on posting pictures.

Really the best photo I can post is the results, because no one can match that compared to our IPS twin turbo system





For the money invested this one of the lesser expensive routes to 650+ wheel hp , no doubt about it, and with our system you have many advantages in our features which will directly benefit you over the competitions!

Regards

this looks alot cleaner than the other one on the orange camaro. Was his a different brand or pre production?

[IPSjeff]

Originally Posted by jordan 572

this looks alot cleaner than the other one on the orange camaro. Was his a different brand or pre production?

Ours has been the same design / lay-out since day one so it must be somebody else's kit.
Jeff

[speedster]

Originally Posted by IPS Brandon

For the money invested this one of the lesser expensive routes to 650+ wheel hp , no doubt about it, and with our system you have many advantages in our features which will directly benefit you over the competitions!

I can't wait to see one of these finally hit a track. Should be some incredibly impressive 1/4 mile times...

[IPS Brandon]

I can't wait to see one of these finally hit a track. Should be some incredibly impressive 1/4 mile times...

There is an event here in Norwalk towards the end of the month that should be a nice place to shoot some more *media* and results on the kit.

Regards

[IPSjeff]

Originally Posted by speedster

I can't wait to see one of these finally hit a track. Should be some incredibly impressive 1/4 mile times...

On an Auto car with DR's or slicks for sure

On a 6-speed car with 20" or 22" wheels not so much...

The first "Drag" car with our TT Kit will be finished in time to hit the track this year The big problem at the moment is the lack of a cage so we will see what we can get out of it before getting the boot...
Jeff

[radarwz]

I have no affiliation with any shop or kit maker. Just an observation and a lot of experience I've gained doing my own work and watching/helping others do theirs.
I have an APS (Australian) low mount kit. One of their first for the GTO. My tuner (NicD) has a 9 sec top mount single F-body and an '04 GTO with a top top mount twin kit built by LS1 Turbo (Also Australian and not so friendly competitor). Both his TT kit and mine use Garrett GT-2871R turbo's. They both make about the same power with similar engine spec's w/cams. Top mount/Low mount in my experience the difference is in the quality of the kit and if you want a stealthy under hood appearance or some engine bay bling. Both kits were tough to install but trouble free.
Which is best? Performance wise...it's a wash. Practically...I think the top mount has the edge because you don't need an oil scavenge pump to send the engine oil back to the motor. A well designed top mount kit gravity feeds back to the motor. Why is that important?
If you don't know then it won't matter to you.
All the kits I've seen presented here look really good...pricey but worth the money.

[LittleMT]

My twin turbo GTO, sweet Maybellene has been a daily driven boosted car for 3 years now......the beauty of a TT system is if you drive normal, it drives like stock. You could easily drive cross Country....

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by LittleMT

My twin turbo GTO, sweet Maybellene has been a daily driven boosted car for 3 years now......the beauty of a TT system is if you drive normal, it drives like stock. You could easily drive cross Country....

Exactly -