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Old 01-03-2009, 01:53 PM   #1
garagelogic
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Sub-11's 1/4-What is needed?

Okay, given the powerplants we know the SS will be blessed with, what would it take in the way of the aftermarket to the car to the 575-600rwhp range? Based on the calculations I have done, and my experience with my current car, I figure this is about what it will take to get a 3900lb manual car into the 10's. Here are the stipulations:

-No weight reduction
-No slicks (I'd like to be able to dip into the 10's on drag radials.)
-No nitrous
-Has to be emissions legal (non-California standards)

Although I had a lot of experience with the LS2 in my 2006 GTO, it was never my intent to make that car a real performer, so I never really looked too deep into what it might take with a LS motor.

I'd like to be able to do get to my goal without going into the internals. (Cam change is okay) and would want the car to be just as docile and steetable as it was stock.

Recommendations? Edit. Title should have been "Sub 11's".

Last edited by garagelogic; 01-03-2009 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:03 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Okay, given the powerplants we know the SS will be blessed with, what would it take in the way of the aftermarket to the car to the 575-600rwhp range? Based on the calculations I have done, and my experience with current car, I figure this is about what it will take to get a 3900lb manual car into the 10's. Here are the stipulations:

-No weight reduction
-No slicks (I'd like to be able to dip into the 10's on drag radials.)
-No nitrous
-Has to be emissions legal (non-California standards)

Although I had a lot of experience with the LS2 in my 2006 GTO, it was never my intent to make that car a real performer, so I never really looked too deep into what it might take with a LS motor.

I'd like to be able to do get to my goal without going into the internals. (Cam change is okay) and would want the car to be just as docile and steetable as it was stock.

Recommendations? Edit. Title should have been "Sub 11's".
Forced induction, intercooled, at around 6 psi since you don't want to change anything internal other than the cam.
The GMPP hot cam sounds ideal for you since you want it to be streetable and docile which it is, from what I've read.

Full exhaust system...

And you just might get there
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:12 PM   #3
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Sub 11's (600hp)

To achieve your goals you'll be looking at Forced Induction (Supercharger or Turbo setup).

A head/cam/bolt on setup making that kind of HP will compromise daily driving characteristics (for most) and will not be smog legal.

You will also need drag radials or slicks to run that fast. And who knows how long the clutch/tranny/rear end will last making that much HP?


Also it might be easier to run sub 11s with an automatic and a nice converter (along with the above mods).
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:17 PM   #4
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I think with the standard bolt ons, the maggie FI with intercooler, a streetable cam, tune, and the DR youd have no problems seeing the numbers you are looking for. All while remaining legal.
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:09 PM   #5
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http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html

580hp = 10.99448ET

580hp with only bolt-ons?
I don't understand. You are willing to go forced induction but you don't want to replace your internals. that doesn't make sense to me. lets see if its possible...

420hp stock
50hp cold air, LT's, full exhaust
20hp ignition
40hp cam(docile and streetable as it was stock)
______
550hp

550x.06=33hp/lb of psi
33hp x 7 psi = 231hp
550+231=781hp

after parasitic loss i think you'll be looking closer to 680-690 give or take
now dont quote me on these numbers they are all estimates.
with all this your car would rub sub-11s, but it would not be "docile" by any means, nor would it be streetable as stock(unless you were looking at a stock ZR1)

Last edited by blackedoutss; 01-03-2009 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by blackedoutss View Post
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html

580hp = 10.99448ET

580hp with only bolt-ons?
I don't understand. You are willing to go forced induction but you don't want to replace your internals. that doesn't make sense to me. lets see if its possible...

420hp stock
50hp cold air, LT's, full exhaust
20hp ignition
40hp cam(docile and streetable as it was stock)
______
550hp

550x.06=33hp/lb of psi
33hp x 7 psi = 231hp
550+231=781hp

after parasitic loss i think you'll be looking closer to 680-690 give or take
now dont quote me on these numbers they are all estimates.
with all this your car would rub sub-11s, but it would not be "docile" by any means, nor would it be streetable as stock(unless you were looking at a stock ZR1)
Well, that's something, But I think your calculations are off a little. The SS makes 422hp at the flywheel, not at the wheels. You're probably looking at 15-18% powerloss through the drivetrain, so on the low end, you're looking at about 350rwhp with the manual tranny. Using your formula, that would be:

350rwhp stock
50hp cold air, LT's, full exhaust
20hp ignition
40hp cam(docile and streetable as it was stock)
______
460hp

460x.06=27.6hp/lb of psi
27.6hp x 7 psi = 193.2hp
460+193.2=653rwhp

Based on that number and a 4120lb weight, that should get me in the high 10's at 125+mph if traction is not an issue.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:41 PM   #7
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Well, that's something, But I think your calculations are off a little. The SS makes 422hp at the flywheel, not at the wheels. You're probably looking at 15-18% powerloss through the drivetrain, so on the low end, you're looking at about 350rwhp with the manual tranny. Using your formula, that would be:

350rwhp stock
50hp cold air, LT's, full exhaust
20hp ignition
40hp cam(docile and streetable as it was stock)
______
460hp

460x.06=27.6hp/lb of psi
27.6hp x 7 psi = 193.2hp
460+193.2=653rwhp

Based on that number and a 4120lb weight, that should get me in the high 10's at 125+mph if traction is not an issue.
Where do you get a 4120lb weight from,The manuel Camaro wieghs about 300lbs lighter.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:43 PM   #8
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Where do you get a 4120lb weight from,The manuel Camaro wieghs about 300lbs lighter.
Fat driver?
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:50 PM   #9
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Fat driver?
What he said. Actually, I took the wrong curb weight for the manual car. It should have been 4060 (3860 +200lbs for my 6'3" frame.)
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:57 PM   #10
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i figured up 781 at the crank and then took out power loss. thats where 680 came from. plus all your mods hp are crank hp, add them all together and then take out loss to get rwhp
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:04 PM   #11
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You'll definitely need FI or spray to get there. FI or spray either one, can be made to be near stock docile, but are you concerned about durability/longevity? Without building a forged short-block, you will definitely be shortening its lifespan, even with good tuning. I mean, if you plan on building a short block like next year or the year after, and only plan on putting say, 10K miles on it a year, then you could certainly do this. Sure some get 50K on an FI stock shortblock...I tend to be conservative and use the "worst case senerio" on my figuring, because the last thing you want to do is pour all your money into mods, only to break something, then have no money left to fix it...I'd just plan accordingly.

I'd also decide on goals, since this car has the ability to corner (unlike MOST previous f-bodies...not talking about you road race guys), do you just want to go fast in a straight line, or do you want to hit a track day or two at the road course. A turbo/Centrifugal SC set up would be better for straight line speed, but something like a TVS or other positive displacement SC would be better for road course type power (d/t heat, and linear power delivery).

Just my $0.02.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:42 PM   #12
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I agree you'll have to go FI. And I also agree that you won't be able to safely go more than about 7PSI on the boost. The CR on the LS3 is just a tad too high... IMHO
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:39 AM   #13
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From what I gathered looking around for myself on superchargers there are quite a few for the ls3 vette. Most are making around the 600hp marker to the tires with just the FI and no other mods. So with a cam for FI and a few other add ons you could see around the 700hp marker with no problems. Also GTA most of the kits designed for the ls3 are around 6psi so you were right on the money with your guess.
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:11 AM   #14
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Love these kinda post!

Thanks for the post. Real informative, especially since I am forced induction kinda guy.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:08 AM   #15
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From what I gathered looking around for myself on superchargers there are quite a few for the ls3 vette. Most are making around the 600hp marker to the tires with just the FI and no other mods. So with a cam for FI and a few other add ons you could see around the 700hp marker with no problems. Also GTA most of the kits designed for the ls3 are around 6psi so you were right on the money with your guess.
Wooo Hoooo!!! I got one right!!!!

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Old 01-04-2009, 02:12 PM   #16
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I'd look at the ZR1 as a base and adjust the power to weight ratio to match it. I do believe we'll see a ZR1 with good traction alone break into the 10's. I've seen Z06's with good traction get damn close!
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:28 PM   #17
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I think the basic theme here is to leave your options open. I would encourage you to build your internals as a starting point. There's just no reason to worry about blowing up when you've built it right. Besides, when you take it in for service, they're going to look at your drag radials and know that something is happening with this car.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:56 PM   #18
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I'd look at the ZR1 as a base and adjust the power to weight ratio to match it. I do believe we'll see a ZR1 with good traction alone break into the 10's. I've seen Z06's with good traction get damn close!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...fast-list.html

10's have already been done on a bone stock C6 ZO6...both with stock tires and drag radials...

Here is my admission for the fast list:
Year : 2006 C6 Z06
Tires : Goodyear EMT Run Flats
Performance Mods : None
Category: Factory Stock

60' 1.772
330' 4.761
1/8 7.168
MPH 102.45
1000' 9.231
1/4 10.981
MPH 128.90

Mir Raceway Budds Creek Md
Nov 30 2007
39 Degrees

Here is my submission for fast list:

Year: 2006 C6Z
Tires: BFG DR 295x18
Performance mods: None
Category: Factory Stock Non Stock Tires

60' 1.701
330' 4.651
1/8 7.039
MPH 103.18
1000' 9.097
1/4 10.831
MPH 130.05

MIR Raceway Budds Creek Md
Nov 30 2007
Temp 39 degrees
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:35 PM   #19
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You need maggie...but you already know that...don't you?
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:06 PM   #20
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one thing i have noticed with all my friends is that once they get to to a certain hp and have driven that for a while they get bored and want more......

IMO, you should not be serious ebout FI unless you are willing to do internal. the difference can be substantial, i know i worked on my thunderbird supercoupe a couple of years ago.

and the rear.....that is going to be the wall that most will hit. sooner than later, the rear will have be beefed up.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:46 PM   #21
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pharmd...that list is AMAZING! I knew they were fast, but WOW! Any of the boys thrash a ZR1 yet? How quick stone stock?
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:37 PM   #22
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one thing i have noticed with all my friends is that once they get to to a certain hp and have driven that for a while they get bored and want more......

IMO, you should not be serious ebout FI unless you are willing to do internal. the difference can be substantial, i know i worked on my thunderbird supercoupe a couple of years ago.

and the rear.....that is going to be the wall that most will hit. sooner than later, the rear will have be beefed up.
GM is building this as a "musclecar" It's more stout then you think...
You're experience is with "Non muscle" into "muscle"...

This will be different.
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
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GM is building this as a "musclecar" It's more stout then you think...
You're experience is with "Non muscle" into "muscle"...

This will be different.




I say a maggie and methanol injection....
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:48 AM   #24
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GM is building this as a "musclecar" It's more stout then you think...
You're experience is with "Non muscle" into "muscle"...

This will be different.
I dissagree, it seems GM is Building this as a High performance , popularly priced modern 2+2 Sports car, rather than a resurrected muscle car. Case in point IRS, The V6 is actualy a car worth driveing, it can actually corner etc...
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:52 AM   #25
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The point he (Wm Holden) was trying to make is that the car has much more capability than the other poster (mega_man) was giving it credit for.
- Xanthos

P.S. - If you dropped your car from a sufficient height, you would pass the 1/4 mile is barely more than 9 seconds...
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