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Old 11-28-2010, 09:07 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by 2001ragtop View Post
Put those back windows that roll down on the normal Camaro please.
I'm 99% certain they tried. After all, the original concept had them like that too. But the added cost/weight to do a true hardtop like the 60s and still get meet rollover standards was against them.

Did you know modern vehicle roofs have to be able to hold 2.5x the vehicle's weight?
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:37 PM   #177
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For those who responded to my post suggesting that people would not want a $70,000 to $100,000 Camaro, that is NOT what I meant or suggested.

Before I try to share exactly what I meant, I want to say I think the Convertible Camaro is the best looking car I have ever seen. I am madly in love with it, but I think there are some important details that have been overlooked that should be addressed AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Once again, I am NOT saying Chevy should charge $70,000 to $100,000 for the Camaro Convertible.

I am saying with the Camaro Convertible Chevy should absolutely build-in a powered tonneau cover like the BMW 650 has in the video below. Doing so could not add more than $1000 to the retail price of the car, and it would make the car look a zillion times better with the top down.

I realize Chevy offers an additional manual tonneau cover for $150 that you have to keep in the trunk when you are not using it, and this is absolutely absurd!!!

The whole point of a power convertible top is that you can press a button and the top goes up or down. If I have to put the top down, then get out of the car, open the trunk, pull out the tonneau cover, put it in place that is absurd and defeats the purpose of having a power top.

Conversely if in order to put the top up, I have to pull over and park the car, get out of the car, manually remove the tonneau top, open and put it in the trunk, get back in the car, then press a button to put up the top, it is absurd.

I know some people say, but you don't need to use a tonneau top. I realize that, but not having one make the Camaro Convertible, which is the best looking car ever made, look like it is half-baked.

Another missing feature is a color screen for Navigation and controls. Even the Ford Mustang offers this.

If I purchase a top of the line Camaro Convertible for sticker price and ad on sales tax and license, it costs $50,000. If I pay the $5,000 above sticker premium my local dealer wants, it will cost me $55,000.

What I want to know is how does a car that costs $50,000 not have climate control!?!?!?!?!?! Even a $21,000 VW has climate control...

What I am saying, Chevy, is charge me $3000 more, and ad the built-in tonneau cover, climate control and GPS Navigation, and triple the length of the front sun visors so they actually do something.

Just to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I AM saying Chevy should charge 5% to 10% more for the convertible, and if they added these simple details, this car would really compete with cars like the all-new BMW 650i 2011 Convertible seen with a built-in tonneau cover seen in the video below.

Anybody who thinks American's can't compete with the German's, has to look no further than Apple Computers. If American's can design the best computers, they should certainly be designing the best cars. IF I recall correctly, it was America that put a man on the moon, but Chevy can't put a tonneau cover on the Convertible Camaro!?!?!?!?! Actually, now that I think about it, it was the German's that put the American's on the moon ;-) You know, Wernher von Braun...




I wan't to know why the Camaro Convertible can't have a built-in tonneau cover like seen in the video below, when I have to pay $50,000 for the Camaro Convertible? I think the American auto industry needs to stop making excuses, and start making cars that have excellent design detail...

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Old 11-28-2010, 10:06 PM   #178
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Sorry Jake, but I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what it takes to build a production ready vehicle. Your "simple" change would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think they did a good job without going over the top and making prices rediculously high.
It looks like a great finished car, and adding a built in tonneau cover will raise prices to a point where it would sell less. They don't need a luxury type vehicle right now, they need a great looking and performing car that is affordable.
These types of additions are best left for Cadillac or even Buick.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:10 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
I want to say I think the Convertible Camaro is the best looking car I have ever seen. I am madly in love with it,
Dually noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
What I want to know is how does a car that cost $50,000 not have climate control!?!?!?!?!?!

Even the Ford Mustang offers this.
Because you can also get one for as inexpensive as $23,000. And that option in the Mustang is a rarely-checked box, it adds over $2000 to the price of the car.

Besides the very obvious question of what "climate" are you controlling inside a small enclosed box that is a car's interior...I would simply say that the Camaro team is not stupid. If climate control was really an in-demand option for this segment, they would have offered it. But it is not. And they did not, in order to keep development costs down for the other 95% of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
What I am saying, Chevy is charge me $3000 more, and ad the built-in tonneau cover, climate control and GPS Navigation, and triple the length of the front sun visors so they actually do something.
I'm glad you're willing to pay for it. You're clearly a guy who knows what he wants, and what it's worth to him.

Here's the problem with that demand -- $3000 is a lot of money. And with the Mustang's convertible top only a $5000 premium over the coupe, people will have to make a choice, and presumable go with the 1000x more refined Camaro convertible. If it were now an $8000 option....people will NOT, guaranteed, buy a Camaro convertible over a Mustang.\

As for the sun visors, they were done that way for safety standards. Apparently test dummies tended to get decapitated if the visors were any larger. On top of that, the view out front is already horizontally narrow...larger visors would obstruct way too much visible glass to actually use. Like it or hate it, that's what it is. I recommended sunglasses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Just to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I am saying Chevy should charge 5% to 10% more for the convertible, and if they added these simple details, this car would really compete with cars like the all-new BMW 650i 2011 Convertible seen with a built-in tonneau cover seen in the video below.
The Camaro will NEVER.....EVER....compete against any BMW. That is Cadillac's job. A few people may cross shop the convertibles, but if they are considering a 650...chances are the Camaro wasn't really a serious choice outside of the fact it has a 'Vert option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
I wan't to know why the Camaro Convertible can't have a built-in tonneau cover like seen in the video below, when I have to pay $50,000 for it? I think the American auto industry needs to stop making excuses, and start making cars that have excellent design detail...
I'm going to assume that you aren't in the Auto Industry...let alone any consumer-product engineering field. There are hundreds if not thousands of considerations to make when designing a car. And you can't overlook any of them or risk not meeting some standard, or loosing ground to a competitor.

You also need to know your target market. And trust me...they know their market better than any development team on the planet, I'd bet. You are what's called an 'outlier'. Which is not a bad thing at all...it simply means that you're desires generally lie outside the spectrum of most Camaro buyers. This is the primary driver behind cost. And cost is one of the biggest reasons they didn't do what you're lambasting them for.

Finally...you saw, I assume, all the time and thought that went into the stiffening of the chassis to compensate totally for the chopped-off roof? Do you think those same people would make such awful mistakes and excuses that you're accusing them of? Do you even know if the body frame can accommodate a power tonneau cover with the pass-through rear seat? Do you know how much weight it would add? Do you know how much trunk space that would take up if they incorporated it? We've already talked about cost....

I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's just that things don't work that way. Something you might think would be an easy thing to do....usually is far and away more complex that we can imagine. I've only just brushed the surface of the reasons why...I'm sure an engineer on the project could talk your ear off all day on the specifics.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:15 PM   #180
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Just to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I AM saying Chevy should charge 5% to 10% more for the convertible, and if they added these simple details, this car would really compete with cars like the all-new BMW 650i 2011 Convertible seen with a built-in tonneau cover seen in the video below.
A Camaro competing with a 650i?

Yeah. Not happening. I don't care if there is a fancy cover to the convertible top.

Like I said, if you want something to compete with the 650i, wait for the ATS Convertible or see if GM will do a CTS Convertible when it moves to Alpha.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:06 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
A Camaro competing with a 650i?

Yeah. Not happening. I don't care if there is a fancy cover to the convertible top.
So let it compete with the Series 3...
Agreed, there is ALOT that goes into the engineering of these tops, and both operate differently in how the rear "seals" especially for the BMW to allow the auto hard boot. However, I'm guessing because of the "cut lines" on both cars, the entire roof assembly just drops in to the body. Eventually, maybe this will be looked at again by GM engineers. It would be very interesting to see what the engineering cost OR manufacturing cost difference is for just this aspect. Maybe we ARE disillusioned to the costs.

I tend to agree with Jake on one point, that because of the way spy shots and initial photos LOOKED...people were expecting GM to "hit this top out of the park" and have a hard boot like the BMW 3 series. (you gotta admit the top storage cover and body cuts look very similar on both)

With that said, will it keep me from ordering my convertible? NO.
Would I have paid $1000 more for just this option? YES
Do I realize the BMW 3 is roughly $53K YES
Do I love everything else GM has done with the convertible...HELL YES

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Old 11-28-2010, 11:54 PM   #182
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There's a reason we have a brand structure in place. If Chevrolet decides to build a car that competes with the 3-series then what's the point of Cadillac?

It's easy for all of you to say, "Oh, why can't GM just design this cover, it would only cost us a few thousand more, BMW does it so why can't GM?" What both of you are missing is that BMW could not care less how much it costs to engineer a part because their customers are accustomed to paying a lot for a car which pays for that engineering. GM, on the other hand, has to worry about that problem, especially with the Chevrolet brand.

The bottom line is that no Camaro competes with any BMWs. That isn't the point of the car. Having seen the car in person, it looks fine without a cover.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:24 AM   #183
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Hi Fenwick,

Chevy must think it is competing with BMW or it would not have mentioned in its press release that:

"The Camaro has Better torsional stiffness than BMW's 3-Series Convertible."

I did not make that up, Chevy specifically said that in their press release from the Los Angeles auto show recently.

If you don't think $50,000 to purchase a fully loaded Camaro Convertible is not "paying a lot of money" I don't know what to say.

In my personal opinion, $50,000 is paying a premium for a premium product, and my local Chevrolet dealer must agree, because they want me to pay an extra $5000 premium over sticker price to have the privilege of purchasing a car you don't seem to believe is a premium car.

What's the point of a Cadillac? I imagine it depends on who you ask. I am certain if you spoke with the design, marketing, and engineering team that worked on the 1959 Cadillac, they would give us quite a different answer than the Cadillac team that worked on the 1982 Cadillac Cimarron.

Obviously GMC had too many brands and models that confused the consumer so they closed down and discontinued many of them. Personally I don't think Cadillac should be striving for a higher level of design, comfort and manufacturing excellence. I think all General Motors brands should pursue absolute excellence.

My point is that I think the Chevy Camaro is an amazing car, but I believe GM cut a few corners they should not have.

Happy Holidays,

Jake

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
There's a reason we have a brand structure in place. If Chevrolet decides to build a car that competes with the 3-series then what's the point of Cadillac?

It's easy for all of you to say, "Oh, why can't GM just design this cover, it would only cost us a few thousand more, BMW does it so why can't GM?" What both of you are missing is that BMW could not care less how much it costs to engineer a part because their customers are accustomed to paying a lot for a car which pays for that engineering. GM, on the other hand, has to worry about that problem, especially with the Chevrolet brand.

The bottom line is that no Camaro competes with any BMWs. That isn't the point of the car. Having seen the car in person, it looks fine without a cover.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:15 AM   #184
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Hi Fenwick,

Chevy must think it is competing with BMW or it would not have mentioned in its press release that:

"The Camaro has Better torsional stiffness than BMW's 3-Series Convertible."

I did not make that up, Chevy specifically said that in their press release from the Los Angeles auto show recently.

If you don't think $50,000 to purchase a fully loaded Camaro Convertible is not "paying a lot of money" I don't know what to say.

In my personal opinion, $50,000 is paying a premium for a premium product, and my local Chevrolet dealer must agree, because they want me to pay an extra $5000 premium over sticker price to have the privilege of purchasing a car you don't seem to believe is a premium car.

What's the point of a Cadillac? I imagine it depends on who you ask. I am certain if you spoke with the design, marketing, and engineering team that worked on the 1959 Cadillac, they would give us quite a different answer than the Cadillac team that worked on the 1982 Cadillac Cimarron.

Obviously GMC had too many brands and models that confused the consumer so they closed down and discontinued many of them. Personally I don't think Cadillac should be striving for a higher level of design, comfort and manufacturing excellence. I think all General Motors brands should pursue absolute excellence.

My point is that I think the Chevy Camaro is an amazing car, but I believe GM cut a few corners they should not have.

Happy Holidays,

Jake
Really?

The Equinox's press release mentioned that the seat frames were out of a Cadillac. I suppose the Equinox is a direct competitor to the CTS.

The Cruze's Details Book states that the electric power steering motor is similar to the set up used in some BMWs. I suppose that makes the Cruze a direct competitor to the 3-series.

Just because GM says that one car is better than another car in some regard doesn't mean that they think those cars are competing.

Your Chevrolet dealer doesn't think the Convertible is a premium product just because they're charging an extra $5k, they're charging an extra $5k because they know there are enough suckers out there who want the car so bad that they'll pay whatever for it when they can drive to the next town where the dealer there isn't marking up the car at all.

I think you need to go look at a Camaro, then go to a Cadillac dealer and look at a CTS. Then come back and tell me the Camaro is a "premium" product. The car is nice, don't get me wrong, but just because it costs $40k, it doesn't mean it's a premium car.

Yes, GM (not GMC, GMC is a brand) had too many brands which confused customers. Which is why the brands and their products are much more streamlined in exactly what they're trying to offer in the market. If you're suggesting that GM should start positioning Chevrolet as a BMW competitor, then you're moving backwards in that mission.

Again, you're completely underestimating what goes into designing, engineering, and building a car. What appears to be "cutting corners" to you is completely different when interpreted by GM. You constantly talk about how you would be willing to spend an extra few thousand on an integrated tonneau cover without considering that that extra few thousand could cause other consumers to walk away from the car.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:45 AM   #185
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Don't you all realize Jake is 100% correct? (see quote in sig) Nobody is going to convince him otherwise, not worth trying.

Number 3 sorry I couldn't get there to see the car. By the time I read your PM it was too late.:( Oh well there's always Houston auto show in January.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:16 PM   #186
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Well the car goes back tomorrow. It was a great trip for sure. One of those trips where the car is such an integral part of the enjoyment and memories.

As usual, Mrs. Number 3 and I really enjoyed meeting so many Camaro enthusiasts on this trip. You are truly a special group of people with a deep passion for this car.

I know many more of you had hoped to see the car, but we just didn't get the chance to drive around much other than the Clearwater area. So sorry about that for those that would like to have seen the car in person. Many people said it is even more beautiful in person than in pictures.

Also, I had countless PMs asking for more details on the car. I have to appologize, but it is still a bit early to disclose detailed information about the car and how it drives and some of those specifics you all want to know about. This is very early in the process. So stay tuned and be patient. All of those questions will be answered in time.

The convertible is truly is a wonderful automobile. I hope that each of you will have the opportunity to drive one very soon and at least see what a great convertible the Camaro makes, even if you prefer the coupe. This is really going to be a special car, one of those cars that when we look back years down the road will always bring back the permagrin just from the thought of it.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:32 PM   #187
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figures... by the time i get back to FL, you're back in MI :(
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:42 PM   #188
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What are the weight specs?

Typically, convertible cars are heavier and handle worse, due to the fact that they have more weight in metal at the bottom to make up for the car getting cut in half
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:58 PM   #189
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What are the weight specs?

Typically, convertible cars are heavier and handle worse, due to the fact that they have more weight in metal at the bottom to make up for the car getting cut in half
They've stiffened the structure to perform nearly identically to the coupe. But it does weigh more overall.

Here, http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115767, you can see the LT starts at 3986 lbs, and the SS is showing 4111.
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Old 11-30-2010, 12:56 AM   #190
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I agree with Jake on the tonneau cover issue; having a 2002 Mustang convertible with a snap on cover (that blew off on the freeway mind you) but consider the Corvette droptop that has a manuel ragtop however you lifted the hard tonneau and dropped the top and put the hard tonneau back down. This could be an option lift the tonneau manuelly hit the switch to drop the top lower the hard tonneau back down. One thing I do notice is the the area where the top sits when it's down gets very dirty without a cover and really is not cleanable.

I also agree that GM needs to stop going down the low budget road in the name of selling units if the quality is of a better standard people are going recognize it, appreciate it, and purchase it. I'm not saying you need the "Ricardo Mantalban Corinthinan Leather" LOL! but they can upgrade to mid-level components however I understand that would cut into the aftermarket arena.

Nevertheless like Jake said $50k for a top of the line car with mediocer quality (I say that because of aftermarket arena) is a slap in the face to the American consumer. Other automakers offer things as standard that the American automakers want to charges as options thus increasing the price anyway. So sure if you want bare bones you should be able to get that but if you want top of the line then it should be just that in every way.

I own a 2006 Corvette, 2008 Escalade, 2002 Mustang, 1997 Lexus and a 1963 Thunderbird so I love speed, luxury, open air, foreign and classics so I have the full gamet.

I loved the Camaro Convertible from day one and wanted it over the coupe from the start but it is the little things that make all the difference in the world and if other companies are doing it then we need to stop making excuses for why we are not.

Let's not even put the BMW into it if Volkswagen (The Eos starting at 32k hardtop convertible as well as hard tonneau) then why can't Chevy? We are suppose to be the best in the free world but now as innovators and forward thinkers we seem to be just settling in the name of selling units. Chrysler is the only company that really puts their concepts into production at a high rate the 300 changed the game for them and look at the innovation two-tone paint, big wheels, giving the people what they want keeping an ear to the streets.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:47 AM   #191
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Quality v. Quantity...

Fenwick,

You concluded in your last post to me by saying:

"Again, you're completely underestimating what goes into designing, engineering, and building a car. What appears to be "cutting corners" to you is completely different when interpreted by GM."

How do you know what I know!?! How do you know what my design, engineering, and car building skills are?

You concluded by saying:

"You constantly talk about how you would be willing to spend an extra few thousand on an integrated tonneau cover without considering that that extra few thousand could cause other consumers to walk away from the car."

The flip side of this coin, is that GM "cutting corners" and not offering a world-class level of detail "could cause many consumers to walk away from the car just as easily."

If I recall my automotive history, it was Chevy that had to discontinue manufacturing the Camaro for 6 years, while BMW grew and set all time growth records with the 3, 5, 6, and 7 Series. Also, if GM is so bright, why did the U.S. Taxpayers have to step in to stop them from going out of business?

I believe the American consumer has become more and more quality conscience over the last decade, so American auto manufactures have had to step it up. It is also a fact that American's are holding on to cars longer today, than ever in the past. Last time I checked, it was around 10.5 years.

Even Chevy said, that convertible owners tend to keep their convertibles longer that non-convertible cars. If I am going to make a "long-term" investment in a car I might have for a decade, I wan't to make certain I love it.

I am remaining open-minded and will test-drive the Camaro Convertible as well as the all-new BMW 650i Convertible. I will say, that what the Camaro Convertible seems to lack in detail, the BMW 650i seems to have in over-abundance.

Happy Holidays!!!

Jake


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Really?

The Equinox's press release mentioned that the seat frames were out of a Cadillac. I suppose the Equinox is a direct competitor to the CTS.

The Cruze's Details Book states that the electric power steering motor is similar to the set up used in some BMWs. I suppose that makes the Cruze a direct competitor to the 3-series.

Just because GM says that one car is better than another car in some regard doesn't mean that they think those cars are competing.

Your Chevrolet dealer doesn't think the Convertible is a premium product just because they're charging an extra $5k, they're charging an extra $5k because they know there are enough suckers out there who want the car so bad that they'll pay whatever for it when they can drive to the next town where the dealer there isn't marking up the car at all.

I think you need to go look at a Camaro, then go to a Cadillac dealer and look at a CTS. Then come back and tell me the Camaro is a "premium" product. The car is nice, don't get me wrong, but just because it costs $40k, it doesn't mean it's a premium car.

Yes, GM (not GMC, GMC is a brand) had too many brands which confused customers. Which is why the brands and their products are much more streamlined in exactly what they're trying to offer in the market. If you're suggesting that GM should start positioning Chevrolet as a BMW competitor, then you're moving backwards in that mission.

Again, you're completely underestimating what goes into designing, engineering, and building a car. What appears to be "cutting corners" to you is completely different when interpreted by GM. You constantly talk about how you would be willing to spend an extra few thousand on an integrated tonneau cover without considering that that extra few thousand could cause other consumers to walk away from the car.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:10 AM   #192
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If you honestly believe that what happened last year is entirely GM's fault, then you're delusional. But I'm not going to get sidetracked into that argument, so nice try.

Again, Camaro Convertible to BMW 650i is NOT an apples to apples comparison. I don't care how stupid your dealer is for charging ridiculous prices for a convertible. Chevrolet does not compete with BMW, and just because you say you'll be cross-shopping the two does not mean everyone else will, in fact I would venture that 95% of people won't. GM has done more than their fair share of market research to determine what potential buyers think is important and obviously a fancy powered cover isn't one of them.

In all honesty, it sounds like you're already enamored with the 650i, so go buy one.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:45 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I'm 99% certain they tried. After all, the original concept had them like that too. But the added cost/weight to do a true hardtop like the 60s and still get meet rollover standards was against them.

Did you know modern vehicle roofs have to be able to hold 2.5x the vehicle's weight?
Excuse the off topic but I would pay 5 grand more for a true hardtop over the coupe. Had 3 of them, GTOs, nothing like it, all windows down, the look and feel needs to be experienced to really get it...
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:00 PM   #194
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There are companies that do this mod. The price? I don't know, but I remember seeing it done when the Camaro first came out.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:09 PM   #195
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Well not to get off of the tonneau cover subject, because for me that is not really a huge deal. I remember old Chevy's I've had (A 66 Impala Convertible SS for one) when you put the top down you had to snap the cover on with 25 snaps! Wasn't a big deal, that's just the way it was. What is the deal breaker for me is maybe I was just expecting too much. All the talk about how the top was going to keep the same lines as the coupe had me expecting obviously too much. From what I can see the lines of the coupe and that chopped look did not translate into the vert. As much as I hate to say it, IMHO the top looks better on the mustang than the Camaro. With the top down the Camaro is the best looking vert on the road. Hands down! I am just not a fan of the looks with the top up. And this is coming from someone who if you cut me I would bleed ! I spent two years number one on a waiting list for the vert. Bought a coupe cause I couldn't wait and wanted to add a vert. But unless something drastically changes after seeing one in person, that won't be happening. Just my .02 worth.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:17 PM   #196
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I just had to jump into this debate ... my position- a 32 yr old white male blue-collar worker living in the suburbs... I've owned 2 Camaros for a total of approx 15 yrs and loved them both till the parting days. I've been anxiously awaiting the release of the 2011 converts and placed my 2SS order Nov 18th.

Now, that being said, as for the Tonneu cover- as an average consumer (who I would believe fits right into the middle of GMs target group for this car) I honestly couldn't care less about the integrated tonneau top. Yeah, it'd be another nice toy, but I'm teetering on the verge of affordability for the 2SS as it is, and the extra cost WOULD have drove me down to a V6 or (God forbid- a Mustang GT...hey, I love Chevy, but they're nice cars too!)

I completely agree with GM keeping the cost reasonable, and if that means eliminating a few luxury options, than so be it. I drove a 09' Mustang Vert for work for awhile with no tonneu top, and it was fine, no problems, issues or complaints whatsoever. If your looking for high-end cars with a bunch of toys, look outside Chevy, and you'll find (and pay for) them.

Personally, I say "Thank you" GM, for keeping the price reasonable, cutting the little "luxuries", so us middle-of-the-road American's can afford a bad azz car, while we're still young enough to enjoy it!


Last edited by Drago77; 12-04-2010 at 09:44 AM.
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