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Old 06-09-2010, 08:23 PM   #101
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fwiw, I think the modern Camaro most closely fits the role of Grand Tourer...

It's too well of a performer...too refined to still be considered a pony car....imo.
Maybe for the sake of heritage it can be called that...
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:55 PM   #102
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lol at this thread.
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Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:04 PM   #103
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Need I say more
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:08 PM   #104
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Attachment 134627




Need I say more
That works for me.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:36 PM   #105
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That works for me.
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:34 PM   #106
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Need I say more
You could have said something like this........
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:31 PM   #107
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You could have said something like this........
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:16 AM   #108
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Wow. After reading all of this debate, I sought clarification; Here are some definitions I unearthed on Wikipedia (not the Bible, but a readily available reference).

Muscle Car. Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1][2] At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally.[3][4][5][6]
As such, they are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.

In this category the following cars are listed: AMX, Chevelle, Charger, Torino, Montego, 442, Road Runner, and GTO.

Now ... the Pony Car. Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964.[1] [2] The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image. "It was small by Detroit standards, with sporty styling... [a]nd the rear wheels were driven by an engine — ideally a big V8 — mounted up front..."[3] Pony cars were "relatively small, relatively light and often absurdly powerful.

In this category the following cars are listed: Javelin, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang, Cougar, Barracuda, and Firebird.

I will go ahead and place a blindfold on because I realize the messenger is always shot. Have fun with this.

One more example of Wiki being a lil offside...

NO AMX would have been a "mid-size muscle car". The original '68-'70 versions were two seaters, and therefore a "Sports Car". The '71-'74 Javelin-based AMX "package" would therefore be a "Pony Car"...

The AMC vehicle that fully qualifies as a "Muscle Car" is the Machine...
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:18 AM   #109
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fwiw, I think the modern Camaro most closely fits the role of Grand Tourer...

It's too well of a performer...too refined to still be considered a pony car....imo.
Maybe for the sake of heritage it can be called that...
Agreed.
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:59 AM   #110
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The Camaro is called a "Sporty Coupe". Muscle cars are no longer PC.
"sporty coupe"? You mean like a Honda Accord coupe?

Sporty Coupe is an insult. It's a term for a sedan-ish car with sport ambitions.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:37 PM   #111
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a muscle car is: an affordable, 2 door car with 2 rows of seats, a powerful v8, and turns heads everywhere it goes. It also has a nice aftermarket of affordable performance upgrades.

or

a car that makes the kind of sounds and can make earthquakes
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:40 PM   #112
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So...Would the Aston Martin DB9 be a muscle car? Or a BMW M3? Maybe an Audi S5?

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Old 06-28-2010, 10:44 PM   #113
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touche
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:46 PM   #114
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touche
I'm only prodding you.

My personal opinion is that the term "muscle car" is a term of endearment, much like "Chevy" is to "Chevrolet".
That's not a bad thing at ALL.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:18 PM   #115
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fwiw, I think the modern Camaro most closely fits the role of Grand Tourer...

It's too well of a performer...too refined to still be considered a pony car....imo.
Maybe for the sake of heritage it can be called that...


Agreed, no matter how close we make the car look like it's 1st generation (hint, hint... challenger)... these are machines of the 21st century. Muscle and Pony were terms used in their day, to describe the vehicles of the day.

The Camaro of today is closer to a Cadillac then the bare bones of it's ancestors. In that definition of Pony car from Wikipedia it said "relatively light"... we'll I argue these cars aren’t relatively light. (it takes 300-400hp to make ‘em get up n' go)

Let's just name it what ever you want... it's your Camaro! I just call mine 'the monster'... and !
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:37 AM   #116
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My opinion is a muscle car is any car that gets its power from displacement, absent of tweaking the body, weight, etc.
A sports car is anything that gets its power from a tuned, tweaked, motor, and focuses on weight loss and handling
Those that do both are supercars

Camaro, Mustang, Challenger = Muscle Car
Lotus, Audi Ss, BMW M3, Nissan 370z = Sports Cars
Ferrari, Corvette, Lamborghini - Supercars

Corvettes once were muscle... once were sports cars... but are now supercars. can't think of any other car that went through all three stages.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:55 AM   #117
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Being a muscle car or a pony car is mainly decided by what chassis the car is built on.

If the car was built on a full/big body chassis it was a muscle car. If it was built on a smaller platform it was a pony car.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:47 PM   #118
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As some others have said, it's very subjective as "Muscle Car" means different things to different people. The folklore is that the '64 GTO was the 1st "Muscle Car" and that from there the definition has since morfed from a mid-sized car with a big cubic inch engine, 4-speed, low gear ratios and limited creature comfort, usually with more sporting options like stripes, bright paint colors and guages that you wouldn't find on the same body style intended to be a family car...

The thing is there were other cars before the GTO that fit the description but generally the rational is that the "Muscle Car Era" began in 1964 and ended in 1974. Camaros and Mustangs were "Pony Cars" as they were not really family cars turned into street performance vehicles by the factory. Using the GTO as the example it was a Tempest/LeMans on steroids. The pony cars were purpose built and not converted family cars...

All that said there is no denying there are a lot of cars with a lot of muscle that were built and are being built today, I see it like this; The person that takes a picture is the "photographer" of the picture but they are not necessarily "a photographer" or if you wish "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

American Iron, it's all good!
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:17 PM   #119
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Talking THIS is a muscle car

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Old 08-03-2010, 09:03 PM   #120
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muscle car


–noun a flashy sports car with a large, powerful engine; a hot rod.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:38 PM   #121
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A Muscle car originally was all about A very large displacement V8 engine in a medium to large size 2 door coupe with 2 rows of seats. With a ton of Horsepower and torque. Solid rear axle intended for drag racing.
A Pony car was about a lighter more nimble 2 door car with a medium to large displacement V8 engine. 2 rows of seats with a solid rear axle. The main goal was to have a car that could run at the drag strip, but could also cruise and turn relatively well when compared to an all out drag strip monster.

The Mustang GT, Camaro SS and Challenger R/T today are really hard to classify. I find myself calling them Muscle cars and Pony cars. More so Pony cars, but I think with the void of a *True muscle car today, the term can be used being that these are the closest examples we have to work with. If Ford, GM or Chrysler released a new medium to large size car tomorrow with a Very large V8 think 413,426,427,429,440,454 with a solid rear axle then the New Mustang, Camaro and Challenger would all be Pony cars.
The Mustang GT in my opinion even today is the purist form of a pony car
(It's ALOT heavier then what a pony car use to be, but it also carry's alot of the same DNA from the original concept. It's nimble, light weight*relative* solid rear axle, medium displacement engine.
The Camaro SS today I consider a pony car as it is also nimble, handles good and has a large displacement engine. In addition I do think that with the IRS it's got some characteristics in regard to ride quality of a luxury tourer. This isn't a bad thing by any means. I just like a SRA unless I'm in a sports car.
The Challenger R/T is also a pony car in my opinion. Same basic principals though handling is a tad less inspiring then the Camaro or Mustang. It has a large displacement engine and the 2 rows of seats. It like the Camaro has the IRS and a softer more elegant ride quality.
*If the new Challenger had a very large displacement engine like a 426 or 440 like the old Roadrunner then I'd consider it a muscle car being that it's a fairly large sized car compared to today's Mustang and Camaro.

But then again...even a 383 was considered to be a Muscle car displacement for a V8. In my opinion that wasn't a very large V8. The correct and agreed upon definition of what makes up a muscle car is a debate that will never end. I think we can all agree on a general consensus, but the details are very complicated. One I truly don't know an exact answer to. What I do know though is the New Mustang, Camaro and Challenger aren't and their predecessors have never have been any form of Sports car.

These are the type of threads I really like to respond to.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:09 AM   #122
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New Camaro 6 speed V8, Muscle Car, Sports Car? I call mine AWESOME!

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Old 09-08-2010, 09:05 PM   #123
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Pony...a small horse...not a good nic name for a car. Mustang is a small wild horse and started the so called "pony car" craze in the early 60s'. The 60's Camaro's were bigger the Callenger's/Chargers even larger still. Muscle car refers to "under the hood"...engine size/displacement, HP, torque and how fast. Pony, a small horse can't run with throughbreds....the Camaro, Charger/Challenger and yes, even some Mustangs are throughbreds or MUSCLE CARS. A 426 HEMI or 350 Chevy small block or a 351 Cleveland....yeah...thats muscle!
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:19 PM   #124
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So, what is a Pontiac G8 again ?

Australian Muscle
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:54 PM   #125
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I believe the term "muscle car" is a generational term. Since I am "old school", I would term my 2010 Camaro as a MUSCLE CAR. Even parked next to our 1967 Chevelle. It is all a mindset.
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