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View Poll Results: Your guess for the Z28 LSA HP rating
Less than 556 HP 95 13.65%
556 HP 158 22.70%
More than 556 HP 386 55.46%
We don't even know if the LSA is going to be in the Z28! Stupid question! 57 8.19%
Voters: 696. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-11-2011, 05:34 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
If GM only wanted to beat the Mustang when the 2010 Camaro came out, the base engine would probably have been the non-DI 3.6L and the SS would have gotten the L76. They'd beat their respective Mustangs, by a little, and everyone would probably be happy ... until the 2011 Mustangs came out that is. Trying to simply be competitive with the current cars led to complacency and mediocrity. No, mood is different now. Benchmark where your competition is right now, and expect that they'll step it up in a couple years. Then aim to compete with the updated models. Worst case scenario, you'll be a little behind (after having a big lead for a year or two). Or better yet, you'll catch the other guy with his pants down and be way ahead in the game.

And to think that Ford isn't going to work on the GT500 would be foolish. In 2009 it had 500 hp. In 2010 it was upped to 540. For 2011 it was bumped another 10 hp, but the car also lost a lot of weight by switching from an iron block to aluminum. And all that was without having a real competitor on the market. I can't imagine that they'll stop there once the Z28 hits the streets.

In the end, it becomes a question of whats more important to GM: making sure the 2013 GT500 won't embarrass them, or worrying about the impact the Z28 has on CTS-V (or Corvette) sales?
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:46 PM   #127
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I have to respectfully disagree. I own a 1st Gen CTS-V, and have been involved with and around the V community for the last 6 years (since my car was new in 2004), and the truth of the matter is that a large portion of 2nd Gen CTS-V owners are guys who have simply stepped up from the 1st Gen. Every V owner that I know, or have had dealings with, values performance above all else while having a car that is infinitely more usable than a pure 2 seater, like a Corvette.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree

If the fellas only wanted luxury with a little performance sprinkled in, they would simply by a CTS (same amount of luxury, less performance than the V-series). Nope, they want the top of the line, American, ultra-high performance luxury sedan. The fastest American sedan, and the second fastest production sedan in the world (second only to the Porsche Panamera, I believe).

I think GM won't let the Z/28 dominate the V, because if it did, then nobody would ever want to buy the CTS-V Coupe, which would only be differentiated from the Z/28 by different sheet metal, a nicer interior, and inferior performance numbers (I know there will obviously be a host of other differences, but to just break it down to the basics that a lay person would see).

Z28 has been around a LOT longer than CTS-V has, and that's one of the reasons why I think it will have a "higher priority", if you will. I just think since it's been established already, and reaches more people. I'm thinking from a CAMARO owners perspective, which I don't know that I think you are. I don't care for all the foofaraw and amenities that come in the luxury cars. I know that I would want CAMARO, on the whole, to be competitive in the market place, but I feel like stepping from Z28 to CTS-V is moving from middle-class (if you will) to upper class. I don't see there being much cross-shopping for serious CAMARO peeople, and that's who I think Z28 will appeal to, IMVHO.

There aren't very many enthusiasts out there who would be willing to pay the extra $13K for more luxury only, with no other differentiating factors over other GM products.

P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.

Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
I give magazine reviews, for the most part, are about as worthless as a poopie-flavored lollipop. Most of the time, the only things they're good for are pictures and learning a lot of new big words I don't know the meaning of. There are a select few reviewers I'd give any credit to, for an honest and unbiased opinion on a given car, and even less for reviewers who actually even know how to drive a car. When I see a review that says no powershifting, and prep'd surface, nor other similar details that a car enthusiast might appreciate prefacing an article, I'm immediately turned off. If you ask me, if we're going to talk acceleration, there's really one driver who I always look to, Mr. Evan Smith. Last I read, he's at a Rustang rag, and still does some stuff for HR and PHR, but I remember him running the fastest times in 4th Gens. When I see runs in CTS-V by him, I'll take it for what it's worth. I know he's run GT500s, but can't find reviews at this time because I wasted too much trying to find anything good for CTS-Vs. I could swear I've seen bottom 12s, and I know I've heard GT500s drop nearly in the high-mid-11s. I've not seen anything close for CTS-V, but I'm sure I could've missed. Having said that, I still don't thing a car that is 10-horse' less and 300-some-odd pounds less is slower than the other car. I know CTS-V will put the power down better, but that's the only advantage I give CTS-V, in terms of acceleration. If I see otherwise, I will respectfully withdraw and reconsider

JMVHO.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:11 PM   #128
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P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.
You're right, but they've got a Corvette in LeMans.

Cadillac is being positioned to compete head-on with BMW and friends. All (or most) of them compete in some sort of performance driving event. But they are all known for being luxury vehicles FIRST, and performance vehicles second.

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Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...
They may not have very much choice. An engine in the Camaro is simply a more efficient breather than in a Cadillac. NOT 40hp more efficient....I'm of the 560-580 mind. Plus, you have to figure that if it's taken this long to engineer a Z28 they've done a little bit more than copy/paste a CTS-V...


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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
If you are someone who can afford a $50K Camaro (which will be a toy for most), then you can also probably afford a V, and you could very well cross-shop the two models.[/B]
I've got to disagree entirely...Many Corvette buyers, for instance, are right on the cusp of being able to afford the car or not. An extra $14k (almost 30% increase in price) is completely out of the question. This is a major reason for the car's sales slump recently, actually...

I expect the Z28 buyers will be in that same bracket, for better or worse.

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[B]If you look at the spec sheet and see 590 HP/ $50K, and then look at the other spec sheet and see 556 HP/ $63K, I can pretty much tell you what choice most people are going to make (this would be a bad business decision for GM, as they would have a ton of CTS-Vs gathering dust on car lots across the U.S.).
This assumes three things -- the first being that customers are likely to cross-shop the CTS-V and the Camaro. The second being that the customer is only interested in performance. And the third being that the customer, after
sitting in both the Camaro and the CTS-V (being able to afford both) wouldn't value the superior quality/materials/features of the Cadillac.

I just don't think that's all going to line up in the real-world. Most CTS-V buyers may be 'only' interested in performance...but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any one of them would rather drive a 'lowly' Chevy...
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:06 PM   #129
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This assumes three things -- the first being that customers are likely to cross-shop the CTS-V and the Camaro. The second being that the customer is only interested in performance. And the third being that the customer, after
sitting in both the Camaro and the CTS-V (being able to afford both) wouldn't value the superior quality/materials/features of the Cadillac.
Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:12 PM   #130
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Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
Very true....It's a plausible thought given the amount of time the Z has been in development.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:18 AM   #131
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Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
I've been thinking all along that ZR1 and CTS-V are due very soon for a bump in power, so it may not even be a problem Z28 possibly develops more power than CTS-V right now. If CTS-V gets a boost, that'll probably put it pretty close to 600 horse', which is right about where I've been thinking Z28 is going to be. 670 horse' ZR1, 590 horse' CTS-V, and 580-600 horse' Z28.

Who'd a really thought, at the end of the 4th Gen, that it'd be somewhat reasonable to even think it would be even somewhat reasonable to speculate a 500+ horse' CAMARO?... These are some great times, friend
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:45 PM   #132
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I've been thinking all along that ZR1 and CTS-V are due very soon for a bump in power, so it may not even be a problem Z28 possibly develops more power than CTS-V right now. If CTS-V gets a boost, that'll probably put it pretty close to 600 horse', which is right about where I've been thinking Z28 is going to be. 670 horse' ZR1, 590 horse' CTS-V, and 580-600 horse' Z28.
I totally agree that the others are due for a bump in hp to give the Z/28 some hp breathing room with the ZR1, which it needs to help compensate for due to the weight its carry.
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:57 PM   #133
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585 hp from slp is able to do 0-60 in 3.6 and 1/4 in 11.5@122 by motorweek's testers with pilot ps2 tires and short throw shifter......so maybe 585 might be pretty close to what GM will offer in the Z/28. This is some of the best times that I have seen with a tuner camaro by any online magazine or tester yet.

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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123899
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:58 PM   #134
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GM is NOT going to give the new Z/28 more substantially power than the CTS-V for $12,000 less. It's just not going to happen.

People need to use the brains God gave them and look into past performance cars to find the answer to this question. The new engine is most likely going to be the LSA, and it will only make more power than the 556 HP the CTS-V has, if the intake and exhaust are slightly more free-flowing. I would guess a 10 HP bump to approximately 566 HP.

GM has absolutely no reason to push the limits of the motor more than they already have (and for less money, even).

This new Z/28 doesn't need 600 or 800 HP to be competitive and beat the GT500 performance numbers. It just needs high quality, wide, and sticky tires (read: not Goodyear F1s) and a great suspension setup for the roadcourse.
That's what I was thinking also, about 560-570 HP. GM also has to consider not to exceed the HP of the next gen Vette, which I think will be about 600 HP.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:52 PM   #135
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I just don't think that's all going to line up in the real-world. Most CTS-V buyers may be 'only' interested in performance...but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any one of them would rather drive a 'lowly' Chevy...
While I agree with some of your points, and realize that a lot of what I base my opinion on is tethered to a few key assumptions, I think the real truth (and which vehicle people want/can afford) will fall somewhere in between.

RANT ON--

However, I do have to respond to your comment that I have highlighted above. I am a CTS-V owner (the "lowly" 1st Gen version). I know between 50 and 100+ CTS-V owners that I have personally met over the last 6 years. I have attended track days with some and put together and attended meets with others, and let me tell you, not once have I ever heard anyone say they like the car because it is a "Cadillac" and somehow better than other GM marques. That is a narrow-minded and naive way to look at our particular family of car enthusiasts.

I'm not sure if you, or any of the other posters who have posted recently, have first-hand knowledge of the CTS-V community (or have ever driven a CTS-V even), but you would be very surprised at just how performance-oriented they all are. The V1 guys (myself included) are very much into the performance side of things (I actively open track my car as much as I can), and a huge amount of V2 owners are guys that first owned a V1, and just continued on the same path that the amazing 1st Gen set them on.

I don't talk down to Chevy owners, or BMW owners, or whatever, so I expect not to be generalized as a Cadillac owner either. I could have bought a base Corvette for roughly the same money as I paid for my V1 new back in early '05, but I chose the V because I had just graduated from college and needed a vehicle big enough and comfortable enough (and could still haul ass) to haul everything I would need to live on for a couple of months until my parents could bring the rest to me. My choice was made up at that point. It had absolutely nothing to do with the name brand at that time. But, something I do take pride in now is just how rare and unique my V1 is. I live in a community of 30,000 people and I have never seen another V in my town. That is cool. With a Vette or Camaro, you see them on every corner, they are a dime a dozen, which kinda takes the fun out of it for me. (although I still like them)

RANT OFF---

To get back on topic here, and to speak directly to your point on cross-shopping, I may be in the minority here, but I will be, and am interested in both the V2 and the upcoming Z/28. And I also know that if I test drove both and liked them both more or less equally, but for slightly different reasons maybe, I would buy the one that provided the best value, or "bang for the buck" (which would be the Z if it does have at least 556 HP and is around $50K). By the way, I like good-natured discussions and I mean no disrespect by anything I have posted or will post.
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Last edited by tweeter81; 01-12-2011 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:16 PM   #136
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By the way, I like good-natured discussions and I mean no disrespect by anything I have posted or will post.
None taken!

And you're right, I don't have much experience with the CTS-V crowd outside of a couple people (one of them a serious Camaro enthusiast) I know who own one and absolutely love it.

I can read the passion you have for the car and the community through your post....which is hard to do on the internet, so take that for what its worth. I'll take your word for it, and I'm glad to now have the perception that most CTS-V owners aren't nose-talkers like the drivers of certain other marques.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:43 PM   #137
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None taken!

And you're right, I don't have much experience with the CTS-V crowd outside of a couple people (one of them a serious Camaro enthusiast) I know who own one and absolutely love it.

I can read the passion you have for the car and the community through your post....which is hard to do on the internet, so take that for what its worth. I'll take your word for it, and I'm glad to now have the perception that most CTS-V owners aren't nose-talkers like the drivers of certain other marques.
I feel like I want a group hug now, lol! You are right I am a big car guy, but really love my V, and even though it has always been my dream to own a Camaro or Vette, I don't think I could part with my V to own one of the others, but I have slowly but surely made mine into a dream car over the last 6 years.

On a side note, I have been coming to these great forums for the last 3 months straight for all my Z/28 info needs and have been having great discussions and loving it here. You mods do a great job and I love all the new content that this site continually has, not to mention the thought-provoking questions that are quite often posted.

On a last side note, you guys can see my car here in all its glory if you care to see my mod list and more cool pix of her (I love spreading the "V Love"):

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...der-2-0-a.html

Track vids:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-r...orts-park.html

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:58 PM   #138
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Thank you for the kind words, and that's a slick V!!
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:41 AM   #139
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None taken!

And you're right, I don't have much experience with the CTS-V crowd outside of a couple people (one of them a serious Camaro enthusiast) I know who own one and absolutely love it.

I can read the passion you have for the car and the community through your post....which is hard to do on the internet, so take that for what its worth. I'll take your word for it, and I'm glad to now have the perception that most CTS-V owners aren't nose-talkers like the drivers of certain other marques.


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I feel like I want a group hug now, lol! You are right I am a big car guy, but really love my V, and even though it has always been my dream to own a Camaro or Vette, I don't think I could part with my V to own one of the others, but I have slowly but surely made mine into a dream car over the last 6 years.

On a side note, I have been coming to these great forums for the last 3 months straight for all my Z/28 info needs and have been having great discussions and loving it here. You mods do a great job and I love all the new content that this site continually has, not to mention the thought-provoking questions that are quite often posted.

On a last side note, you guys can see my car here in all its glory if you care to see my mod list and more cool pix of her (I love spreading the "V Love"):

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...der-2-0-a.html

Track vids:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-r...orts-park.html

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
You have a SICK car!!! I didn't really think there would be much cross-shopping, but it looks like I was wrong! Thanks for the reality check! I've always love those CTS-Vs from your generation and only wished it fit my bill
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:50 PM   #140
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Most likely the LS3 with a supercharger to bring it close to about 576hp.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:58 PM   #141
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Most likely the LS3 with a supercharger to bring it close to about 576hp.
LSA >LS3+supercharger
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:34 PM   #142
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I'm betting the LSA, because it will be the cheaper way to go. The engine is already out there and proven. I think it will also get the CTS-V's brakes. Horsepower will be an even 550, probably through a restricted air cleaner setup. GM may be back to profitability, but they're not exactly flush with cash for R&D.
I think I was pretty close on this one!
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:43 PM   #143
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I think I was pretty close on this one!
Yup! I'm curious to see what the final number is when they're done testing. If I recall correctly, the ZR1 was advertised early at 620 hp...and then BAM it was SAE certified at 638. A similar thing happened with the CTS-V. Under-promise and over-deliver.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:29 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Yup! I'm curious to see what the final number is when they're done testing. If I recall correctly, the ZR1 was advertised early at 620 hp...and then BAM it was SAE certified at 638. A similar thing happened with the CTS-V. Under-promise and over-deliver.

Exactly, with about a year before delivery, do you really think GM is going to reveal actual numbers to give the competition something to benchmark? I'd bet that this is a very conservative estimate. I still expect between 560-575 HP.

The only way I see this not being conservative is if they can somehow manage to avoid the gas guzzler tax with this 550 HP rating.
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:59 AM   #145
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I stand corrected on the belief that it was going to be a hybrid of sorts kinda LSA for the Camaro ZL1 due to the different intercooler cover which is needed to fit the firewall in the Z.

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I too believe that the Z/28's engine will be a hybrid of sorts between LSA and the LS9 as we know them currently. Remember that GM said the LSA was engineered for refinement for Cadillac and not for all out power and yes GM did have other supercharged engines in development prior to bankruptcy. The plenum cover on the prototype Z/28's engine is not like any we've yet to see by GM to date even though it say's LSA on the plastic cover, I think it could be for our amusement only and to downplay what's coming. This intercooler design is not like any so far from GM and it looks to have a much larger and pronounced intercooler compared to the CTS-V's. Note that the coolant lines on the prototype's intercooler is located on the front of the engine also.

GM also said at the introduction of the LSA and the LS9 engines was that the first big main difference from the two engines was the supercharger's size, 1.9L for LSA and 2.3L for the LS9.

The second big difference was that the LSA had a more efficient single brick intercooler compared to the LS9's dual brick intercooler on lowering the forced air temp. This was done on the LS9 to keep the hood design low which the camaro does not have an issue with since its cowl height is not as low as the corvette's.

The third is of course the forged pistons in the LS9 compared to the hypereutectic pistons in the LSA which was used because they are quieter and are much more tolerant on emissions especially start-up compared to the forged ones of the LS9. The hypereutectics in the LSA are pretty durable and can withstand a lot of punishment while producing high hp levels.

Hypereutectic Aluminum Pistons with Oil-Spray Cooling
Superior piston design sets the tone all of the 6.2L LSA's internal components. The engineering objective? Lighter, stronger and smoother.

The pistons themselves are aluminum-cast from a high-silicon alloy developed for its combination of strength and heat-management properties. Casting reduces noise-generating potential, compared to other high-performance piston materials such as forged aluminum, and is specified when NVH control is a priority. The hypereutectic pistons are also lighter than conventional steel, which translates to less reciprocating mass inside the engine. Less mass means greater efficiency, high-rpm capability and a feeling of immediate response as the engine builds revs. The LS9s pistons are made of forged aluminum. The key difference in material choice here, is the desire for refinement in the Cadillac application.

The combustion surface of the LSA pistons, or the top land, lacks the valve-relief pockets typical on high-performance engines with relatively high-lift valves. Rather, the LSA top lands are sumped, with a saucer-shaped indent that dips gradually from the outer edge of the piston. This design promotes a thorough mixing of air and fuel, and along with other durability enhancing features, allows a 9.1:1 compression ratio: higher than a conventional supercharged or turbocharged engine, for improved combustion efficiency.

The durability enhancements include an anodized top land, which reduces wear and helps deflect heat generated during combustion away from the LSA's bottom end. To further reduce wear, the piston skirt is coated with a polymer material, which limits bore scuffing, or abrasion of the cylinder wall over time from the piston's up-down motion. The polymer coating also dampens noise generated by the piston's movement. The wrist pins, which attach the piston to the connecting rod, were developed for maximum durability, with a large outer diameter and a tapered inner diameter. These pins "float" inside the rod bushing and pin bores in the piston barrel. Compared to a conventional fixed pin assembly, in which the connecting rod is fixed to the piston's wrist pin while the pin rotates in the pin bore, the floating pins reduce stress on the pin. They allow tighter pin to pin-bore tolerances and reduce noise generated as the piston moves through the cylinder. The benefit is less engine wear, improved durability and quieter operation.

Valves are among the most heat-stressed parts in an engine, and their wear resistance is crucial to long-term durability. Those in the LSA are manufactured from a high-chromium steel alloy called SilChrome 1 (The only difference between the LSA's exhaust valves, and the LS9s is that the LS9's are filled with sodium for the extra heat protection -- the LS9s intake valves are made of titanium.), with thicker heads than most other Gen IV V-8s. They promote heat transfer away from the valve face and valve guide to the cooler end of the stem, where it more readily dissipates. This maintains a lower, more uniform valve temperature, reducing wear on the valve guide for better alignment and a consistent seal between the valve seat and valve face over the life of the engine.

Finally, the 6.2L LSA represents the first line of small block V-8s equipped with oil-spray piston cooling. Eight oil-squirting jets in the engine block drench the underside of each piston and the surrounding cylinder wall with an extra layer of cooling, friction-reducing oil. The oil spray reduces piston temperature, promoting extreme output and long-term durability. The extra layer of oil on the cylinder walls and wristpin also dampens noise emanating from the pistons.

I don't think the Z will get the titanium connecting rods or sodium filled valves from the LS9 but you never know.

Stock for stock the LSA is a more durable engine test wise compared to the LS9 as was stated by GM at the debut. Regarding quality and durability, the 6.2L Supercharged LSA has been validated beyond 100,000 miles and accumulated more the 6,400 hours of dynamometer testing. It has run over 270 consecutive hours at wide-open throttle without a failure. (The LS9 has only accomplished 100 hours of this sort of testing!!!) It's been road tested in the world's extreme climates and track-tested under racing g loads on some the world's most demanding circuits. It has completed actual and simulated 24-hour track tests.

And just because the LS9 is rated at 638 now does not mean that it would not be bumped up a little to provide the Z/28's engine a little breathing room for it's hp rating.
The prototype Z/28 pic below looks to have a much taller intercooler cover with well defined twin riser to maybe house a taller version of the LS9 intercooler twin bricks for better combustion inlet temps.

The stock LSA as installed in the CTS-V has a rev limiter @ 6200 rpm yet it was shown to make more power well past 6600 rpm and was still climbing from this post from another site: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...sa-engine.html I think the Z/28 engine will not have a rev limiter of 6200 rpm but of one much higher. It showed 451 hp @ 6200 and 485 hp @ 6600 with rev limiter raised or removed, thats a 34 hp difference. The gm performance parts crate LSA has a recommended 6600 rpm fuel cutoff.

Pics below are of the prototype Z/28 engine, then uncle Robin Lawrence's LSA stuffed camaro bottom left, and last but not least an LS9 stuffed camaro bottom right for comparison plus some side by side parts pics.
The ZL1's LSA vs the CTS-V's LSA:
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