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Old 01-15-2011, 11:12 AM   #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott@Bjorn3D View Post
Make Peace with Ted. Order CNC VMAX from Ted since Chris just bought one and buy a tune from Ted and be done with it. Ted could probably have you running today if you would listen to me. 300.00 from Ted and your tranny will be freaking tuned also. You should really quit being so pig headed at times.

Shit did i really just type that?
I don't need a VMAX. And no mail order tune will ever get the max efficiency as a dyno tune. It's not Ted. There is no need to 'make peace'. It's not Ted himself that makes me not buy a tune. It's just that I don't believe he can do what I need.

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I would tend to agree. Do what's needed to get a tune from somebody as reputable as Janetty. Then after your other mods ( don't worry, there'll be more!!!) you can send him your logs, and he can adjust accordingly.
I don't like sendign stuff and not knowing when I'm gonna get taken care of. The thought of sendign an emial, waiting to hear back, sending another, waiting again, to get 'close' to a good tune is not appealing at all. I don't even know how to do the data logs.

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He told me he did not hook anything to the headers. Made it sound like the cables and sensors are just tied up on his car in a loop.
You got me mixed up with someone else.

All of my sensors are plugged in.

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Originally Posted by Huggerorange73 View Post
That is incorrect....there are 2 sets of 02 sensors on the car, one set before the cats ( which will be in the collector of the header ) and one post cat ( in the cat or the off road pipe ).

The rear 02 sensor are disabled in the PCM so they don't throw codes...the front 2 are still sending info the PCM to determine A/F ratio.
I totaly forgot about that. So it could explain too why even the stock tune is messing up.

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Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
Before running much more, I'd check the oil. Make sure the oil doesn't smell like gas. Just to make sure it's not way overfueling and washing down the cylinders. You can get a rough idea if the stall is from rich or lean by blipping the throttle while its starting to die. If it chugs, revs real slow, and puffs out dark smoke.... way too rich. If it stumbles, hesitates, pops, revs quick, no dark smoke, no gas odor, then way too lean.

A few more run times (as long as it's not flooding the oil with gas) should be enough to set a code. If the oil is good, I'd give it a few more warm up runs, check the data and codes. If it's not setting codes, maybe it is just the tune. But normally it takes quite a significant mechanical change to a motor such as a big cam to not even be able to stay running on the stock tune. Fuel pressure should be fine if it idles good in open loop.

The O2 readings, short term fuel trim, when the problem is happening should tell the story.


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Originally Posted by Huggerorange73 View Post
If that's the case....he's got some serious issues on his hands.
Everythings plugged in.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:24 PM   #752
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One quick check you can do to make sure all the pcv stuff is hooked up right... While it is idling relatively stable, take the oil cap off real quick. The engine should falter slightly and a small drop in rpm. Stick it back on and it should stabilize. It is very slight but noticeable. If there is absolutely no change when popping the oil cap on and off at idle, something in the PCV is not right or vacuum leak somewhere.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:30 PM   #753
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One quick check you can do to make sure all the pcv stuff is hooked up right... While it is idling relatively stable, take the oil cap off real quick. The engine should falter slightly and a small drop in rpm. Stick it back on and it should stabilize. It is very slight but noticeable. If there is absolutely no change when popping the oil cap on and off at idle, something in the PCV is not right or vacuum leak somewhere.
I'll try it.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:42 PM   #754
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My guess is it's coming into closed loop at that point...at that time, it's taking info from all the sensors to make it's call on fuel & spark.
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When a car is started, the computer is in open loop until certain criteria is met. The o2 sensors need to be heated to work properly, so this is the main reason there is a delay.

After the sensors are heated up, the car goes into closed loop and the O2 sensors make their corrections.

The computer will go back into open loop under a variety of conditions. Throttle Position (TP) is one way.

There are parameters in the computer that determine what the TP is for Open Loop, and other things.

When that TP is reached, and the car goes open loop, and richens up.


In closed loop fueling, the computer takes readings from the oxygen sensors which read +/- of 14.64 AFR (Stoich) and makes corrections for it. If your car is idling @ 13.5 AFR, the 02s can see this, and will know to pull out enough fuel to get back to stoich.

In open loop, the fueling is purely based off the MAF transfer function and the open loop fuel table. This table has to be calibrated any time you make MAF changes, and changes that affect the airflow of the MAF.

With that being said.....as long as the 02 sensors are warm, he's in the loop..given the fact they are heated, it's likely the car is in fact in closed loop.


I believe if left at idle the time is an 88 sec delay which coincides w/ shutdown in the video...
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:12 PM   #755
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:15 PM   #756
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:55 PM   #757
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gonna have to trailer it. won't drive over 1200rpm without feeling like it's detonating :(
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:57 PM   #758
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gonna have to trailer it. won't drive over 1200rpm without feeling like it's detonating :(
WOW! Can his tune be off this bad??? It just seems like it might be something else in addition to needing a tune.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:17 PM   #759
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I hope you get it worked out, Like to see a good end to the install for PQ.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:33 PM   #760
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gonna have to trailer it. won't drive over 1200rpm without feeling like it's detonating :(
That almost sounds like the MAF isn't reading the airflow. I've worked on a few cars that knocked like crazy off idle, and they turned out to be bad MAFs. On some cars you can turn the key off, unplug the MAF, then restart the engine. And if it idles perfectly with the MAF unplugged, something is wrong with the MAF or wiring. The ECM will use a default value if the MAF is unplugged. I've never tried that on a Camaro, but it has worked on every other car I've suspected a bad MAF.

The arrow on the MAF is pointing toward the engine? It can go in backwards.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:43 PM   #761
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Check this as well with the maf. You might be surprised. It will only take a second to check.

http://vararam.com/camaro.html
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:43 PM   #762
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:02 PM   #763
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@PQ; Bro' take the vehicle in to a specialist. You wouldn't want to keep tinkering and blow the engine. A few hundred bucks to get it sorted out and tuned right is better than $10k in engine repairs, unless of course your next step is to upgrade the internals anyway. LOL
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:06 PM   #764
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MAF problems can be tough to diagnose too, often don't set a code. The ECM just gets a wrong reading, and calls for the wrong fuel (way too lean if it's not reading the air flow) and the engine will just stall or detonate unexplainably when you crack the throttle and the engine gets more air not seen by the MAF.

I'll wager 37 cents the MAF is either in backwards or a wiring problem to the MAF.

I would try unplugging it with the key off, then restart, and see if it will idle stable with the MAF unplugged.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:10 PM   #765
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PQ do you have a way to test all the fuse's for the fuel pump or the ECM, You may have blown one and don't know it.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:39 AM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
@PQ; Bro' take the vehicle in to a specialist. You wouldn't want to keep tinkering and blow the engine. A few hundred bucks to get it sorted out and tuned right is better than $10k in engine repairs, unless of course your next step is to upgrade the internals anyway. LOL
I agree. Magnuson told me to ziptie the actuator open and try to ease it to the tuner. And if I notice any detonation to not drive it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
MAF problems can be tough to diagnose too, often don't set a code. The ECM just gets a wrong reading, and calls for the wrong fuel (way too lean if it's not reading the air flow) and the engine will just stall or detonate unexplainably when you crack the throttle and the engine gets more air not seen by the MAF.

I'll wager 37 cents the MAF is either in backwards or a wiring problem to the MAF.

I would try unplugging it with the key off, then restart, and see if it will idle stable with the MAF unplugged.
The other night when I was resplicing the wires I had to take the intake loose so i had to unplug the MAF sensor. I forgot to plug it back in and found out because it started but immediately died. The sensor is in the correct flow direction. The arrow is correct. If it wasn't I would have known 6 months ago.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:42 AM   #767
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I agree. Magnuson told me to ziptie the actuator open and try to ease it to the tuner. And if I notice any detonation to not drive it.

The other night when I was resplicing the wires I had to take the intake loose so i had to unplug the MAF sensor. I forgot to plug it back in and found out because it started but immediately died. The sensor is in the correct flow direction. The arrow is correct. If it wasn't I would have known 6 months ago.
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:03 AM   #768
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Check this as well with the maf. You might be surprised. It will only take a second to check.

http://vararam.com/camaro.html
I'll check. But it's been working in this intake for 6 months.

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PQ do you have a way to test all the fuse's for the fuel pump or the ECM, You may have blown one and don't know it.
Ya. I can pull them and look.
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:05 AM   #769
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FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLL



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Old 01-16-2011, 01:18 AM   #770
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FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLL



Free for all.

I got fuses I haven't even pulled yet.
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:25 AM   #771
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:59 AM   #772
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:31 AM   #773
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PQ,

I don`t know if you havve looked into this or not but this was a problem w/ my car after the Whipple install. I would assume it would be an issue with any blower and any early 2010 that has not had a updated O/S from GM. Runs great for a minute or so while in open loop hits closed loop and dies. Here is what I said and the fix. not sure if your problem but something worth checking:

One thing that is very important that we found out the hardway. Please read the following as it is very important, I would assume for almost any blower install but this was definetly the case with my Whipple. I had taken off work to do this build w/ my friends, the first thing we did per whipples instructions was try to dowload the superchips tune in the car. did not work. Instead of calling whipple then we chose to continue with the job, pretty much had to get cracking as 1 freind took the day off too to help. We got it all done and attempted to install the tune again, called superchips that sat morn and no one was there, spoke to Jeff at Whipple who sent us some HPtuners tunes as we had plans on doing the fine tuning w/ HPtuners since my car is not stock and the superchips tune was for stock. Once the car went into closed loop it would not stay running. We tried everything, nothing worked my tuner came over no dice. Called superchips mon morning they said my Operating system in my computer was not supported by them. I have an early 2010 VIN ends 12,546 and I have never had an update done by GM to my PCM/TCM. My tuner tried and tried to get it to stay running w/ tuning in HPtuners. However, there were tables missing from my PCM that were in other peoples Whipple tunes who sent them to us trying to help me. Thanks again everybody. Well the table that was missing is the Air/Fuel Ratio Analysis program. Its not in the old OS, but is in the new OS from GM. I can`t understand why GM shipped cars w/ out this table. I guess they did a patchwork to get them to run NA, but boy it sure won`t run w/ the blower. Runs fine is open loop, hits closed loop let of on the gas floods out and cuts off no matter what you do. So I took the car to my dealer freind, had to tow it, they flashed it. Starts up runs and drives fine. Disabled AFM and drove it home. Crazy. So the moral here is if you have an older VIN w/ no updates, go weeks in advance and get your car flashed by the dealer w/ the updates. I have been through this pain for you. Don`t make the same mistake....Lol..


Link: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=whipple
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:27 AM   #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMRULZ View Post
PQ,

I don`t know if you havve looked into this or not but this was a problem w/ my car after the Whipple install. I would assume it would be an issue with any blower and any early 2010 that has not had a updated O/S from GM. Runs great for a minute or so while in open loop hits closed loop and dies. Here is what I said and the fix. not sure if your problem but something worth checking:

One thing that is very important that we found out the hardway. Please read the following as it is very important, I would assume for almost any blower install but this was definetly the case with my Whipple. I had taken off work to do this build w/ my friends, the first thing we did per whipples instructions was try to dowload the superchips tune in the car. did not work. Instead of calling whipple then we chose to continue with the job, pretty much had to get cracking as 1 freind took the day off too to help. We got it all done and attempted to install the tune again, called superchips that sat morn and no one was there, spoke to Jeff at Whipple who sent us some HPtuners tunes as we had plans on doing the fine tuning w/ HPtuners since my car is not stock and the superchips tune was for stock. Once the car went into closed loop it would not stay running. We tried everything, nothing worked my tuner came over no dice. Called superchips mon morning they said my Operating system in my computer was not supported by them. I have an early 2010 VIN ends 12,546 and I have never had an update done by GM to my PCM/TCM. My tuner tried and tried to get it to stay running w/ tuning in HPtuners. However, there were tables missing from my PCM that were in other peoples Whipple tunes who sent them to us trying to help me. Thanks again everybody. Well the table that was missing is the Air/Fuel Ratio Analysis program. Its not in the old OS, but is in the new OS from GM. I can`t understand why GM shipped cars w/ out this table. I guess they did a patchwork to get them to run NA, but boy it sure won`t run w/ the blower. Runs fine is open loop, hits closed loop let of on the gas floods out and cuts off no matter what you do. So I took the car to my dealer freind, had to tow it, they flashed it. Starts up runs and drives fine. Disabled AFM and drove it home. Crazy. So the moral here is if you have an older VIN w/ no updates, go weeks in advance and get your car flashed by the dealer w/ the updates. I have been through this pain for you. Don`t make the same mistake....Lol..


Link: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=whipple
I think we have a winner right here....this makes the most sense and fits the bill of what's happening to a T.
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:46 AM   #775
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It sure looks like when it begins doing its short and long trim and computer is trying to make its adjustments and running its tests that it is pulling out all the fuel....thus stalling. When you get it to your tuner I am sure he will see it trying to make these huge adjustments. Then the problem is to determine the reason why. Hopefully, it is just in the tune itself and he can adjust it so the tests dont attempt to pull as much out..Or maybe just the front 02 sensors turned off or something. You are so patient with all of this...I probably would have been across the county in Tx having Andy checking it out for me by now.
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