So..what exactly is the difference between Kooks and Knockoffs? (in pictures) - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 12:01 AM

Been sitting on this for a while..trying to decide if I wanted to post them. At the end of the day, I figured it was best to let the customers see the pictures and decide for themselves since most will never get a chance to see both in person.

What we have here is a picture of Kooks headers next to...well..we will just say a popular brand of ebay headers. Both are new..fresh out the box. We procured a set of these since members wanted to see proof.

No measuring tape needed here..apple does not fall from the tree..

So now that we have established that they are basically the same design..what are the differences?

Well the big difference is in fit and finish. Many of the pipes where the ebay headers go into the flange are ovaled and less than round. Trying to weld oval pipe to a round flange creates issues.

This is what a Kooks header looks like inside the flange.

At first this does not look like a big deal. (Kooks on the right)

However..if you want an actual 1 7/8" header...then this could be an issue. This is caused because of the benders they are using ovaling the pipe. When you run your hands around the pipe, you can feel how it is ovaled.

Here is a measurement of inside one of those flanges..barely 1.7"

Another picture of Kooks flange

This pictures shows an ebay header primary. You can see the crease in the pipe from where the bender took it out of round.

Here is a Kooks header. The pipe looks much more round. running your hand around, you can feel the difference between the two. The Kooks pipe itself is marked up because it is not polished. Those are a normal part of the bending process.

Here is the Kooks header merge collector next to their standard collector.

We had an issue with this collector. The weld slag was so thick we had issues getting the flange to slide past it.

Inside the two collectors. Not much going on here. The ebay header's merge spike is not as semetrical and kind of ugly.

Here is a picture of the two flanges. For some reason, the ebay header has a misxure of oval and round bolt holes, and even the round bolt holes are bigger than Kooks. This can create issues matching the ports togethor. The ebay header is using a 1/2" flange, which is thicker than the 3/8" flange the Kooks, SW, and pretty much everyone else uses. I think this comes from the cheaper ebay headers having a repuation for warped flanges back in the day. Kinda like an over reaction to prevent it in the future. The industry standard 3/8" flange is best for most applications where you are using quality materials because it provides a middle ground bettwen being really think and allowing the bolts to sink into the head more for a better seal.

New here is something curious. Despite the headers being the exact same length, the Kooks mid pipes are longer. I am not sure why the ebay header has shorter mid pipes? One issue I could see is this will mean that the mid mipe will not butt up to the catback like it should, and would leave the factory band clamp to have to seal the gap.

The Kooks mids are the taller ones with the tags on the bottom.

wbt · 01-09-2011, 12:22 AM

I bet there is about .5 HP difference between the 2. The overhang can be smoothed with a die grinder.

I compared a set fo Kooks to ARH headers today and the ARH headers are far beyond a much better design than the Kooks.

If money was not an object, ARH would be the best choice IMO.

BUMBLE-B-TUNA · 01-09-2011, 12:23 AM

Thanks for stepping up to add some light to this very controvertial issue. Its pretty clear with side by side pictures along with your explanations that you do indeed get what you pay for. I'm always looking for a good deal but but not to the extent of sacrificing quality. Maybe they don't make much difference in performance but the OBX look like crap to me.

I could not bolt those onto my car, hard to believe I was actually considering them but after seeing and reading this the answer is NOT!

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

I bet there is about .5 HP difference between the 2. The overhang can be smoothed with a die grinder.

I compared a set fo Kooks to ARH headers today and the ARH headers are far beyond a much better design than the Kooks.

If money was not an object, ARH would be the best choice IMO.

The pipe behind the flange itself is not round. You cannot fix that with some grinding. They are using weld slag to cover the gaps between the oval pipes and round flange.

mikeSS · 01-09-2011, 12:32 AM

thank you maryland for taking the time to do this. i bet this will turn more people off from getting the knock offs.

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 01:00 AM

I just want people to see the differences, then they can make their choice. There are a lot of people who will never have a chance to see both sets back to back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeSS

thank you maryland for taking the time to do this. i bet this will turn more people off from getting the knock offs.

wbt · 01-09-2011, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

The pipe behind the flange itself is not round. You cannot fix that with some grinding. They are using weld slag to cover the gaps between the oval pipes and round flange.

Pffft. How do you explain similar dyno gains then?

For the average consumer they are just fine.

Class competitors....may need to look at ARH.

mikeSS · 01-09-2011, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I just want people to see the differences, then they can make their choice. There are a lot of people who will never have a chance to see both sets back to back.

ya that is true all of this talk about them being knock off and yet to see a true picture of them right next to each other until now. did you guys buy the ebay headers to make this comparison?

mikeSS · 01-09-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

Pffft. How do you explain similar dyno gains then?

For the average consumer they are just fine.

Class competitors....may need to look at ARH.

hes talking about the overall quality not gains

v6sonoma · 01-09-2011, 01:11 AM

Hopefully this will end the ongoing debate. Generally you always get what you pay for, but I'm sure there are many people who will be more than satisfied with the amount of performance gained by the knockoffs in spite of the less than stellar fit and finish. I would say it's worth the extra $$$ to get a high quality part.

wbt · 01-09-2011, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeSS

hes talking about the overall quality not gains

Hmmm....that is fine but if they fit and provide similar gains, then why the Hell would you spend $900 more?

Let's be rational.

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

Pffft. How do you explain similar dyno gains then?

For the average consumer they are just fine.

Class competitors....may need to look at ARH.

Look at it this way. If a header gives you 25HP, and you give up 4-5 HP because of ugly flanges..that is almost 20% less power. And that only grows the more you mod. Like I said..it's up to you if you want to put something like that on your car. However I am willing to bet plenty of people expect more, and will pay for more. I mean the ports are less than 1 3/4" in places. No one has done a back to back test of the two. I may do it..but I am not sure it is worth it given the time and money I have already sank into this, and the fact that half the people will call BS anyway.

Bottom line is..no matter the price, Kooks could not get away with fit and finish like that..no matter the price.

wbt · 01-09-2011, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Look at it this way. If a header gives you 25HP, and you give up 4 HP because of ugly flanges..that is almost 20% less power. Like I said..it's up to you if you want to put something like that on your car. However I am willing to bet plenty of people expect more, and will pay for more. I mean the ports are less than 1 3/4" in places.

...and results in a .04 in the 1/4. That is not event worth debating.

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

...and results in a .04 in the 1/4. That is not event worth debating.

I would say given the attention CAI tests get here 4-5HP does matter to a lot of people. I mean if you only want to spend $300 for headers..then yes..it is easy to ignore. However if you seriously put some consideration into what you put on your car, it matters.

wbt · 01-09-2011, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I would say given the attention CAI tests get here 4-5HP does matter to a lot of people. I mean if you only want to spend $300 for headers..then yes..it is easy to ignore. However if you seriously put some consideration into what you put on your car, it matters.

Take that $900+ and invest in suspension, other HP mods, etc. and you are ahead of the game of the fella' who invested in a set of $1,500 headers.

We are talking cam and head porting $$$.

To the masses....pick your parts wisely.

I would not spend less on a Chinese made cam but for a non-moving part, you bet.

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

Take that $900+ and invest in suspension, other HP mods, etc. and you are ahead of the game of the fella' who invested in a set of $1,500 headers.

We are talking cam and head porting $$$.

To the masses....pick your parts wisely.

I would not spend less on a Chinese made cam but for a non-moving part, you bet.

Also apples to apples..meaning off road systems, Kooks is not $900 more if you call around. You are off by several hundred dollars.

*KILLER74Z28* · 01-09-2011, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I just want people to see the differences, then they can make their choice. There are a lot of people who will never have a chance to see both sets back to back.

Thanks for the comparison... I went with ARH and all I can say is I'm glad I did, (ARH quality is second to none) especially after seeing these pics. You do get what you pay for...

wbt · 01-09-2011, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Also apples to apples..meaning off road systems, Kooks is not $900 more if you call around. You are off by several hundred dollars.

I took prices directly from your site as a comparison.

*Mindz* · 01-09-2011, 02:16 AM

Lots of effort must have been put into this in order to break it down as detailed as you did. Nice comparo!

MarylandSpeed · 01-09-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

I took prices directly from your site as a comparison.

As I stated in my post "if you call around"

BlaSSt Off · 01-09-2011, 02:43 AM

I bought Kooks from you guys and I love them. wbt is saying its not rational to pay a few hundred more for something built here in America, with better quality, and looks alot better then the knock offs, but if he really wanted to be rational, he wouldnt have bought the Challenger RT since the Camaro is a better performer and cheaper or the Mustang since its just about equal of a performer but the Camaro holds resale better... HMMM!!! Wbt just wants to stir up $hit and talk about being rational because he doesnt like the Camaro.

Thanks to companies like Maryland Speed and Jannety, people can make informed choices. Sure they are more expensive and of coarse a buisness is going to try and sale people on the products they sale, but either way Kooks and ARH make the same gains and are pretty much metal art while the cheap shit wbt puts on his challenger and mustang looks like its held together with boogers.

It gets old hearing people bash a company that is putting out factual information to let people know what they are spending money on. I wish people like that would just STFU and go cry on a mustang or challenger forum.

Sorry... end rant.

BlaSSt Off · 01-09-2011, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbt

I took prices directly from your site as a comparison.

Call... as in telephone. And they actually speak english unlike the people on the other end(if you can actually get anybody) when you order the knock offs. Its called customer service and its awesome.

mikeSS · 01-09-2011, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaSSt Off

Call... as in telephone. And they actually speak english unlike the people on the other end(if you can actually get anybody) when you order the knock offs. Its called customer service and its awesome.

raped

wbt · 01-09-2011, 03:19 AM

Hahaha!!!

Not raped by any means.

Feel free to exercise your frustration on me as I no longer own a 5th gen Camaro. There are plenty of reasons I don't.

1. Under-performs compared to the Mustang GT.

Takes thousands of $$$ to do the same as 2011 GT can do for a fraction of the cost.

2. Lack of room as a daily driver for a family.

Challenger meets this need very nicely and is just as quick as the Camaro SS's at the local track.

3. Cost.

I purchased both the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T for less than my Camaro SS. Both are a better value period and my R/T performs the same as a SS at our local track.

To quell any bullshit about performance:

If you are interested in running at the track, feel free to PM me.

Outside of personal reasons and back OT....I never once said Maryland or JR weren't stand up companies. They do great things for many communities. I disagree with the topic of the post and provided very valid reasons why. Many Camaro owners would agree with me and it has been debated here heavily.

It boils down to what you as a consumer are comfortable with. There is no debate about that. Having a choice is a privilege.

Wilburbeest · 01-09-2011, 03:27 AM

I can see how the knockoffs might have their place.....but I wouldn't put them on my car. I'll just say that. Personally, if I was trying to work on a budget I would rather buy a properly built mild steel header, even if it wasn't coated (and of course take measures to prevent rust), than a stainless header with that poor of workmanship.

01-09-2011, 12:01 AM	#1
MarylandSpeed Drives: 2012 ZL1 & 2010 2SS/RS Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,301	So..what exactly is the difference between Kooks and Knockoffs? (in pictures) Been sitting on this for a while..trying to decide if I wanted to post them. At the end of the day, I figured it was best to let the customers see the pictures and decide for themselves since most will never get a chance to see both in person. What we have here is a picture of Kooks headers next to...well..we will just say a popular brand of ebay headers. Both are new..fresh out the box. We procured a set of these since members wanted to see proof. No measuring tape needed here..apple does not fall from the tree.. So now that we have established that they are basically the same design..what are the differences? Well the big difference is in fit and finish. Many of the pipes where the ebay headers go into the flange are ovaled and less than round. Trying to weld oval pipe to a round flange creates issues. This is what a Kooks header looks like inside the flange. At first this does not look like a big deal. (Kooks on the right) However..if you want an actual 1 7/8" header...then this could be an issue. This is caused because of the benders they are using ovaling the pipe. When you run your hands around the pipe, you can feel how it is ovaled. Here is a measurement of inside one of those flanges..barely 1.7" Another picture of Kooks flange This pictures shows an ebay header primary. You can see the crease in the pipe from where the bender took it out of round. Here is a Kooks header. The pipe looks much more round. running your hand around, you can feel the difference between the two. The Kooks pipe itself is marked up because it is not polished. Those are a normal part of the bending process. Here is the Kooks header merge collector next to their standard collector. We had an issue with this collector. The weld slag was so thick we had issues getting the flange to slide past it. Inside the two collectors. Not much going on here. The ebay header's merge spike is not as semetrical and kind of ugly. Here is a picture of the two flanges. For some reason, the ebay header has a misxure of oval and round bolt holes, and even the round bolt holes are bigger than Kooks. This can create issues matching the ports togethor. The ebay header is using a 1/2" flange, which is thicker than the 3/8" flange the Kooks, SW, and pretty much everyone else uses. I think this comes from the cheaper ebay headers having a repuation for warped flanges back in the day. Kinda like an over reaction to prevent it in the future. The industry standard 3/8" flange is best for most applications where you are using quality materials because it provides a middle ground bettwen being really think and allowing the bolts to sink into the head more for a better seal. New here is something curious. Despite the headers being the exact same length, the Kooks mid pipes are longer. I am not sure why the ebay header has shorter mid pipes? One issue I could see is this will mean that the mid mipe will not butt up to the catback like it should, and would leave the factory band clamp to have to seal the gap. The Kooks mids are the taller ones with the tags on the bottom. __________________ Phone- 443-730-9428 Now Offering Installs and Tuning! * Check Out Our New 2010 Camaro Section! Last edited by MarylandSpeed; 08-01-2011 at 03:32 AM.

01-09-2011, 01:11 AM	#10
v6sonoma Drives: 2010 SS RS Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Providence, RI Posts: 7,482 View My Garage	Hopefully this will end the ongoing debate. Generally you always get what you pay for, but I'm sure there are many people who will be more than satisfied with the amount of performance gained by the knockoffs in spite of the less than stellar fit and finish. I would say it's worth the extra $$$ to get a high quality part. __________________ Mods: BBK Intake, BBK LT's and High Flow Cats, Corsa Cat-back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, SLP skip-shift eliminator. 7/1/09 Placed order for IOM/IO int/ SS/RS 6M 9/26/09 Took delivery!

01-09-2011, 02:16 AM	#19
Mindz E.B.A.H. Drives: you wild... Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: In the happy padded room wearing a jacket that makes me hug myself... Posts: 16,745	Lots of effort must have been put into this in order to break it down as detailed as you did. Nice comparo! __________________ "J, you're my favorite Pokemod" ~Revo1

01-09-2011, 03:19 AM	#24
wbt Account Suspended Drives: 2010 Challenger R/T;2011 Mustang GT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 2,107	Hahaha!!! Not raped by any means. Feel free to exercise your frustration on me as I no longer own a 5th gen Camaro. There are plenty of reasons I don't. 1. Under-performs compared to the Mustang GT. Takes thousands of $$$ to do the same as 2011 GT can do for a fraction of the cost. 2. Lack of room as a daily driver for a family. Challenger meets this need very nicely and is just as quick as the Camaro SS's at the local track. 3. Cost. I purchased both the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T for less than my Camaro SS. Both are a better value period and my R/T performs the same as a SS at our local track. To quell any bullshit about performance: If you are interested in running at the track, feel free to PM me. Outside of personal reasons and back OT....I never once said Maryland or JR weren't stand up companies. They do great things for many communities. I disagree with the topic of the post and provided very valid reasons why. Many Camaro owners would agree with me and it has been debated here heavily. It boils down to what you as a consumer are comfortable with. There is no debate about that. Having a choice is a privilege.

01-09-2011, 03:27 AM	#25
Wilburbeest Think With Your Dipstick! Drives: 1997 Camaro Z28 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 199	I can see how the knockoffs might have their place.....but I wouldn't put them on my car. I'll just say that. Personally, if I was trying to work on a budget I would rather buy a properly built mild steel header, even if it wasn't coated (and of course take measures to prevent rust), than a stainless header with that poor of workmanship. __________________ - Willy 1997 Camaro Z28 (LT1/T56): K&N CAI \| Kooks 1 3/4" LTs \| 3" Custom Duals \| UMI LCAs w/ relocation brackets \| UMI adj. panhard bar \| UMI adj. torque arm \| Koni SA shocks \| Strano Springs \| Ram Powergrip clutch \| Pro 5.0 shifter \| skip shift eliminator kit \| WS6 Store rotors \| Hawk HPS pads

01-09-2011, 12:22 AM	#2
wbt Account Suspended Drives: 2010 Challenger R/T;2011 Mustang GT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 2,107	I bet there is about .5 HP difference between the 2. The overhang can be smoothed with a die grinder. I compared a set fo Kooks to ARH headers today and the ARH headers are far beyond a much better design than the Kooks. If money was not an object, ARH would be the best choice IMO.

01-09-2011, 12:23 AM	#3
BUMBLE-B-TUNA Drives: 2010 SS Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lake Cowichan BC, Canada/Buckeye AZ Posts: 381 View My Garage	Thanks for stepping up to add some light to this very controvertial issue. Its pretty clear with side by side pictures along with your explanations that you do indeed get what you pay for. I'm always looking for a good deal but but not to the extent of sacrificing quality. Maybe they don't make much difference in performance but the OBX look like crap to me. I could not bolt those onto my car, hard to believe I was actually considering them but after seeing and reading this the answer is NOT!

01-09-2011, 12:32 AM	#5
mikeSS Drives: 2013 E92 M3 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: MI Posts: 7,314	thank you maryland for taking the time to do this. i bet this will turn more people off from getting the knock offs.

01-09-2011, 02:43 AM	#21
BlaSSt Off Drives: 2SS/RS Join Date: May 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 588	I bought Kooks from you guys and I love them. wbt is saying its not rational to pay a few hundred more for something built here in America, with better quality, and looks alot better then the knock offs, but if he really wanted to be rational, he wouldnt have bought the Challenger RT since the Camaro is a better performer and cheaper or the Mustang since its just about equal of a performer but the Camaro holds resale better... HMMM!!! Wbt just wants to stir up $hit and talk about being rational because he doesnt like the Camaro. Thanks to companies like Maryland Speed and Jannety, people can make informed choices. Sure they are more expensive and of coarse a buisness is going to try and sale people on the products they sale, but either way Kooks and ARH make the same gains and are pretty much metal art while the cheap shit wbt puts on his challenger and mustang looks like its held together with boogers. It gets old hearing people bash a company that is putting out factual information to let people know what they are spending money on. I wish people like that would just STFU and go cry on a mustang or challenger forum. Sorry... end rant.