So..what exactly is the difference between Kooks and Knockoffs? (in pictures)

[blazzin1]

Brandon,
I greatly appreciate the comparison, especially since I haven't bought headers yet. This has definitely swayed my decision to stay with the top 3 manufacturers....ARH, Kooks, or Stainless Works. I'm a firm believer in, "You get what you pay for", and from what I've heard all three of those are Top-Shelf "A+++" quality, so I will save up my money, and get the good stuff!!!

Now....which one of those three?!?!?!? Darn Decisions!!!

[MarylandSpeed]

Originally Posted by xxlbeerz

An impartial tester would help as well.
(Not saying there is anything wrong with the result, but there is bias)

Trust me..if I were gonna fudge anything, I would a.) do less than 3 runs each, and b.) the differences would be greater.

[Entaille]

why would an impartial tester care about this subject enough to buy the headers (and kooks if they don't stock em), and go through all of the hassle of installs and dynos?

[xxlbeerz]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Trust me..if I were gonna fudge anything, I would a.) do less than 3 runs each, and b.) the differences would be greater.

Originally Posted by Entaille

why would an impartial tester care about this subject enough to buy the headers (and kooks if they don't stock em), and go through all of the hassle of installs and dynos?

Good points. No vendor is probably going to stock both brands, so I guess only the "other" side could do a comparison if they so chose (which won't happen).

The only way to get a test like that would be if a website, magazine, club, or other interest group did a shootout.

[Irnwkrkev]

SO WHAT'S THE MYSTERY!!!!! Brandon, you've left us in suspense!

[MarylandSpeed]

The mystery Header is Kooks new "Signature Series" Header. They had these at PRI, and we have been holding off anouncing till we did a dyno test. This header is 1 3/4" stepped to 1 7/8" and comes with an extra O2 bung from the factory for wideband tuning. It will cost $200-$300 more than standard 1 7/8" because it requires a bunch of extra work to make, but the gains are there. For more details call us @ 443-730-9428.




Just so you can see them side by side, here are the 3 runs with the Kooks 1 7/8"

[Mark Myles]

Daddy Like...... Any pics..??

Thanks again Brandon. VERY nice thread, and worth all the bickering!

M

[hoffmk2003]

excellent! Glad you decided to share! Kook is doing themselves a favor, any pictures of the kooks new stepped header?

[xxlbeerz]

Wow, 10whp just from stepping?
I wonder if tuning could squeeze even more.

[motorhead]

Cheap people will always make excuses for being cheap. I wouldn't spend $36,000 for a performance car to put poorly made knock off headers that will probably rust out in two years. The same people buy the cheap stuff and then when it fails they bitch about it.
FOR THOSE OF YOU DEFENDING THE CHEAP KNOCK OFFS, CALL IT WHAT IT IS. IT'S YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY BEING CHEAP.


PS. I think it's a joke to post a Video of a 13.6 time for an R/T challenger and then have the gull to call it faster or as fast as an SS camaro. The camaro drivers at your home town must suck at driving.

[MarylandSpeed]

Originally Posted by hoffmk2003

excellent! Glad you decided to share! Kook is doing themselves a favor, any pictures of the kooks new stepped header?

They are in my camera which is at home. I will post tonight. Again..this header will not be cheap. It is like a whole ebay header more expensive than the the standard Kooks header. However it will be the best header money can buy for those who want that kind of thing.

[km9v]

MarylandSpeed, thanks for taking the time, money & effort to do this.

[livefr33ordie]

Brandon, You just sold me headers. I can't pay you till this summer though. At least I know which ones I am going to buy and from whom.

[blazzin1]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

They are in my camera which is at home. I will post tonight. Again..this header will not be cheap. It is like a whole ebay header more expensive than the the standard Kooks header. However it will be the best header money can buy for those who want that kind of thing.

I guess I'm ignorant of what a "stepped" header is, can someone explain??? And maybe why it is better? Thanks.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

stock camaro puts down 350-360 stock WHP. that setup will not give you 50WHP. without a tune people under estimate how much power comes from a tune. and you will be throwing a code with the headers. i am not trying to talk shit here. but i would never run that setup without a tune.

This is just a discussion and your opinion is valid. I would like a tune, but once again I am just saving a little cash.

Here you go (near the end of this page):

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=24085&page=20

413 RWHP with no tune on a Mustang dyno. My cheap headers would not be as good as Stainless so say I get 400. Still, not bad for $1,200. I can just remove the occasional CEL with my scan tool in 30 seconds. I do not need to inspect my car for 5 years here in NJ.

I know there are many benefits to a tune. But what would my proposed setup benefit in RWHP, 10-15 RWHP? I really don't know, just asking.

My point is you can have fun for relatively cheap. if you have the $$ great, go first class. I am a relatively poor modder. I cannot.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Okay..so lets rewind a second here.

First off, lets be clear here on what the issue is. Basically, you have a company stealing a board sponsors (Kooks) header design, making inferior overseas copies in a country that artificially devalues it's currency, and then dumping them here. It is your money, you can do what you want with it...but this is not something people should feel good about. It is not "Oh..I will settle for Walmart jeans instead of Levi's". That would be more like buying Pacesetters. This is like buying fake Oakley's at the flea market because you want the real thing, but can't afford it. Every time you buy one of these, you are buying stolen intellectual property. Is there a lot that can be done about it legally..no. But we can call it out for the very inferior, underperforming attempt at a copy it is. I don't think anyone walks away from this thread thinking they are getting Kooks for $400, which was the case before.

Now the last time we had this thread, there was a chorus of people saying things like "Prove they are knock offs", "Prove they are inferior", "Show me numbers". That is what I did here..and the tale of the tape shows that you get what you pay for. You can sit around all day and say "Oh 10 ftlb of TQ down low is no biggie". That is a HUGE deal when the headers give you 30 ft/lb at the most anyway. Given the reaction the CAI comparison threads get on here, a lot of people do care about that kind of power.

The funny thing is, these headers are intended to be copies, but in reality in terms of build construction, these headers are the worst I have ever seen (and I have sold ALOT of headers). Even Pacesetters do not have ports that nasty, or ovaled primaries. If any big name header manufacturer put out headers advertised as 1 7/8" with the ports squeezed to less than 1 3/4", people would be calling for their head. So..now..not only are you buying a product that is a cheap overseas knock off..you buying probably one of the worst made products on the market in every category BUT price.
So will some people get upset about this..sure. But it seems they are people who already owned the ebay headers, or were only gonna spend that much money anyway. I think the rest of the readers here however have learned that there are pretty big compromises that come with the savings these headers give, and that they need to think more about their decision.

You make some good points but here is mine.

They may very well have tried to rip off the Kooks design. As you have proven they did a lousy job of it. Their headers are inferior. Fine. Point proven. But to ask everyone to spend quite a bit more money to get a better product does not follow from that argument. The cheap headers are not represented as being anything other than what they are. Cheap headers.

People buy LTs for two reasons, power and sound. With the cheap headers we get all of the sound and most of the power. LTs for the price of shorties.

Companies in the US here rip each other off all the time. Yet we buy their products. This one is no different.

And no offense to Pacesetters, but these are temporary headers. At least the Ebay headers are built with some version of stainless.

And if anyone wants to insult my headers or me for buying them feel free. It's just a car and it's just headers. I enjoy my Camaro and I am having fun with it. But in no way does it define me. I am just buying stuff to have fun.

I am going to buy a set of these cheap headers and still buy the Kooks cats. So they will be getting some money from me. I also don't think Ebay headers are going to put Kooks out of business. There are plenty of Kooks supporters here. if Kooks goes out of business it will be their own fault.

What is all the fuss about? The US lost its manufacturing mojo years ago. We did it to ourselves. None of us here can change that by buying Kooks headers.

Thanks for listening.

[Alfieboy]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Okay..so lets rewind a second here.

First off, lets be clear here on what the issue is. Basically, you have a company stealing a board sponsors (Kooks) header design, making inferior overseas copies in a country that artificially devalues it's currency, and then dumping them here. It is your money, you can do what you want with it...but this is not something people should feel good about. It is not "Oh..I will settle for Walmart jeans instead of Levi's". That would be more like buying Pacesetters. This is like buying fake Oakley's at the flea market because you want the real thing, but can't afford it. Every time you buy one of these, you are buying stolen intellectual property. Is there a lot that can be done about it legally..no. But we can call it out for the very inferior, underperforming attempt at a copy it is. I don't think anyone walks away from this thread thinking they are getting Kooks for $400, which was the case before.

Now the last time we had this thread, there was a chorus of people saying things like "Prove they are knock offs", "Prove they are inferior", "Show me numbers". That is what I did here..and the tale of the tape shows that you get what you pay for. You can sit around all day and say "Oh 10 ftlb of TQ down low is no biggie". That is a HUGE deal when the headers give you 30 ft/lb at the most anyway. Given the reaction the CAI comparison threads get on here, a lot of people do care about that kind of power.

The funny thing is, these headers are intended to be copies, but in reality in terms of build construction, these headers are the worst I have ever seen (and I have sold ALOT of headers). Even Pacesetters do not have ports that nasty, or ovaled primaries. If any big name header manufacturer put out headers advertised as 1 7/8" with the ports squeezed to less than 1 3/4", people would be calling for their head. So..now..not only are you buying a product that is a cheap overseas knock off..you buying probably one of the worst made products on the market in every category BUT price.
So will some people get upset about this..sure. But it seems they are people who already owned the ebay headers, or were only gonna spend that much money anyway. I think the rest of the readers here however have learned that there are pretty big compromises that come with the savings these headers give, and that they need to think more about their decision.

Damn:


First off..again as I have prev stated..... I have nothing but RESPECT for you.

BUT-

Seriously- YOU ARE TAKING THIS WAY too far..your demo & pics were great..

LEAVE IT AT THAT!..

you are causing yourself unnecessary negativity.

I dunno if your too blind to see that or what......


You ..unfortunately need to accept things and say what it is is what it is.You cannot change it.
You pointed out important differences, but you may lose customers rather than gain by continuing to rant & rave .....

Just my opinion...

Rick

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Cheap people will always make excuses for being cheap. I wouldn't spend $36,000 for a performance car to put poorly made knock off headers that will probably rust out in two years. The same people buy the cheap stuff and then when it fails they bitch about it.
FOR THOSE OF YOU DEFENDING THE CHEAP KNOCK OFFS, CALL IT WHAT IT IS. IT'S YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY BEING CHEAP.
PS. I think it's a joke to post a Video of a 13.6 time for an R/T challenger and then have the gull to call it faster or as fast as an SS camaro. The camaro drivers at your home town must suck at driving.

I think that guy was just a troll. No worries about the R/Ts.

And call me cheap if you must, but the way I look at it I am spending my money wisely. You call it cheap, I call it a compliment.

[brantley847]

Originally Posted by livefr33ordie

Brandon, You just sold me headers. I can't pay you till this summer though. At least I know which ones I am going to buy and from whom.

haha, ditto...he sold me headers 6 months before I had the camaro. Now I just have to wait until I close on a house before I can put any debt on my credit. Then...then we play

[MarylandSpeed]

You are missing the point that in the past, these were represented by many here as basically Kooks, but a 3rd the price. We have proven that as false. Well false if you care about quality and power.

You say people won't pay for quality headers, they are only concerned about power and sound. I have a decent amount of orders today that say that is false. There are plenty of people who share my idea that it is clownshoes to mod a new $40K car with ebay knock off parts. Matter of fact, the only people I see defending ebay headers are the ones who own them or are in the process of buying them.

Originally Posted by Fraxum

You make some good points but here is mine.

They may very well have tried to rip off the Kooks design. As you have proven they did a lousy job of it. Their headers are inferior. Fine. Point proven. But to ask everyone to spend quite a bit more money to get a better product does not follow from that argument. The cheap headers are not represented as being anything other than what they are. Cheap headers.

People buy LTs for two reasons, power and sound. With the cheap headers we get all of the sound and most of the power. LTs for the price of shorties.

Companies in the US here rip each other off all the time. Yet we buy their products. This one is no different.

And no offense to Pacesetters, but these are temporary headers. At least the Ebay headers are built with some version of stainless.

And if anyone wants to insult my headers or me for buying them feel free. It's just a car and it's just headers. I enjoy my Camaro and I am having fun with it. But in no way does it define me. I am just buying stuff to have fun.

I am going to buy a set of these cheap headers and still buy the Kooks cats. So they will be getting some money from me. I also don't think Ebay headers are going to put Kooks out of business. There are plenty of Kooks supporters here. if Kooks goes out of business it will be their own fault.

What is all the fuss about? The US lost its manufacturing mojo years ago. We did it to ourselves. None of us here can change that by buying Kooks headers.

Thanks for listening.

[brantley847]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

What is all the fuss about? The US lost its manufacturing mojo years ago. We did it to ourselves. None of us here can change that by buying Kooks headers.

lol, We did lose our MOJO. Hell to a country that establishes equal rights, fair wages, and abolishes slavery.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

You are missing the point that in the past, these were represented by many here as basically Kooks, but a 3rd the price. We have proven that as false. Well false if you care about quality and power.

You say people won't pay for quality headers, they are only concerned about power and sound. I have a decent amount of orders today that say that is false. There are plenty of people who share my idea that it is clownshoes to mod a new $40K car with ebay knock off parts. Matter of fact, the only people I see defending ebay headers are the ones who own them or are in the process of buying them.

Oh then I understand. You won the Ebay headers = Kooks debate I think.

No, I did not say people will not pay for quality headers, I said many will. Your position has lots of support. I think that is great. Kooks has a good reputation and I think they deserve it.

But people who decide to save some money are not scum either. I do not have Ebay headers and I am not in the process of buying them. But I am leaning more towards the Ebay headers after reading this thread. Except for the super expensive secret Kooks headers I am not losing that much. To buy the Kooks I might have to forfeit some of my intended suspension mods.

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

but heres the thing. you say not everyone has money to put into the camaro. heres what i see. ok you buy headers for lets say 375 and cats for like 420. thats like 800 right there. then you will want a tune for like 400-495. thats 1100 right there. and then you will want a CAI. another 400. we are at 1600. now lets say you cant install them yourself. thats another 400-500 for a shop to install it. 2K

and maybe you want a better sounding exhaust ,thats another 500-1200 for a exhaust , my point is that its pricey either way. that could be close you 3k. you probably saved like 400 with OBX. but the point is either way its pricey

people here just bought a camaro SS and want to mod the car, and do not wanna spend a extra 400 for higher quality headers i just dont get it

Maybe unlike you they don't live at home and have a house payment and utilities and taxes and the list goes on ... Saving $400 to put towards other bills or to put food on the table makes a lot of sense. The difference in the price of the LT are $500 in themselves ... I really can't think of a single mod I would buy for $500 and only gain 8lbs of torque, it just isn't worth the price.

[xxlbeerz]

I went with the XS Power system, I have no idea where it's really made (North Carolina?) or if it's copied from something, but it was so inexpensive headers to tip, I couldn't justify spending 3 or 4 times more for essentially the same thing... especially after I read all these systems sometimes have issues and these are 321SS. The pipes on mine don't look bad like the one in this thread...

Can you buy a set and run some comparison dynos?

[mikeSS]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

This is just a discussion and your opinion is valid. I would like a tune, but once again I am just saving a little cash.

Here you go (near the end of this page):

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=24085&page=20

413 RWHP with no tune on a Mustang dyno. My cheap headers would not be as good as Stainless so say I get 400. Still, not bad for $1,200. I can just remove the occasional CEL with my scan tool in 30 seconds. I do not need to inspect my car for 5 years here in NJ.

I know there are many benefits to a tune. But what would my proposed setup benefit in RWHP, 10-15 RWHP? I really don't know, just asking.

My point is you can have fun for relatively cheap. if you have the $$ great, go first class. I am a relatively poor modder. I cannot.

yes that is true you don't have to spend that much to have fun, if you notice "TAG UR IT" got his car dyno right after he put the mods on. there is a theory behind all of this. i have heard from more then one tuner that in time the gains will not be as good as to right when you put it on without tuning . because the cars computer adjusted trying to get back to stock settings. it would be very interesting if TAG UR IT would get dynoed again to see if the gains stayed. remember i am not pulling this info out of my ass. thats what forum sponsors/tuners told me.