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Old 07-24-2007, 08:25 PM   #1
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Mileage concerns?

I refuse to buy a car that will go below my current 24.5 mpg combined std. that I have achieved in my current car. I'm hoping GM will go the extra mile and beyond in addressing fuel economy concerns(which they stated they would in that dealer memo that was released not too long ago), but I may be asking too much. In which case I'll be putting my money from a product from overseas(somewhat regrettably) that can do better. I have a feeling that I may be asking for too much, but only time will tell.

After I got through putting gas in my car this afternoon a guy around my age rolled up in a Mustang GT Convertible, I rolled down my window to ask what he got on the combined cycle, he said "it's crappy man, 17"- pretty crappy.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:53 PM   #2
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you refuse to buy something with less than 24.5 ... Cobalt maybe?

seriously i have a grand marquis i can get over 25 with or i can get under 20 it's all about the driver in most cases.

if your THAT worried about fuel economy you can buy a smart car for under 20K.

I Promise you my camaro won't get over 20 the first few tanks.... hearing that exhaust note feeling the power... probabally closer to 10

With the manual trans you should easily be able to get this with good driving technique.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:54 PM   #3
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I guess I'm just not concerned with the mileage at all. In all honesty, I'm buying it for the performance and I can afford to spend a little extra money on gas if it fuels (edit- pun not intended) my hobby, the same way someone may buy season tickets to a sports team or go on hunting trips. Fuel consumption can be affected in ways such as carpooling and bettering your driving habits. That said, the LS1 and similar engines were always known for rather high mileage numbers, especially considering it's a performance engine.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:03 PM   #4
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Steve, no offense but you're response is a little unnecessarily dramatic. It's a simple and real concern, really. At 6'5" there's no way I'll ever be buying a compact, unless it's a MINI, and I'm not to fond of buying a car from Europe at this point(blame a sudden real and deep appreciation fro my country). Thank You.

My concern is entirely reasonable, especially since GM agrees.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:06 PM   #5
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Auto should be able to get it too....The 6L80, and the T56, are almost on level ground as far as performance.

Not only that. But 24.5 is possible in Most Chevy's (they're the brandI'm most comfortable spitting facts about :p). It's all, like steve said, with the driver. If that Mustang driver drove nice, he could get low 20's.

But, we're not talking about the Mustang, are we? No, we're talking about the Camaro. GM believes they can easily get 30 hwy out of the Camaro. More by the time it comes out. The Vette already gets 28. And the LS3 is a promising engine, moreso than the LS2. VVT, Direct injection...and an easy foot.

but seriously, although it'll probably be more than possible in the Camaro, if you want this much fuel economy, and this much power...Your asking A LOT. You might be better off getting a V6 Camaro if your going to be fuel economy picky.

As for your "have to buy overseas" comment...Why!?!? There are plenty of Domestic vehicles that get the same if not better fuel economy than the imports...GM is not lacking in that department. Again, I'm only comfortable with spitting out Chevy facts, others can defend the other brands better...but take a peek at this site...http://www.chevrolet.com/fueleconomy/
That is hard proof in my eyes.

You could also buy a Camaro for a few years, have fun at the expense of 24.4 mpg, and then trade it in for a Volt later on (if you must trade it in)
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:12 PM   #6
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I love hearing people bitch about the mileage they're getting....

I get 13-14 out of my Silverado and about that out of my Tahoe. But I don't complain because I knew what it would be when I bought it, I expected it, and I was willing to get that kind of mileage to have my full-size 4x4, crew cab pickup.

I'd say the same thing about getting the Camaro...this isn't the car you buy if you're that concerned about mileage. Get a Hyundai or a Prius if you want great gas mileage.

I'm not really trying to bash on you here. I understand your concern, and it's a legit one, but, you have to outweigh that concern vs your other needs/wants. That will be up to every individual.

Now, from what has been mentioned before (and is in another thread somewhere), GM is supposedly shooting for the mid 20's to 30 mpg. As always, if they put 25 on the sticker, expect 20-22...yeah, yeah, the new EPA ratings and all, whatever, I would expect low 20's (also assuming we can keep our right feet light on the go pedal).

Still, a 400+HP, rear drive, performance car getting "only" in the low 20's, looking like this and it says Camaro on the back....PUT MY NAME ON THE WAITING LIST!
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:17 PM   #7
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Dragon,

Thanks for the informative post. Perhaps I was a little vague in addressing my requirements for a new car, but simply put it must be:

-Sporty/Fun to drive
-High quality
-High performance
-Economical(to some degree)
-Real style, a classic
-Reasonably priced
-Roomy

Now tell me how many of the more economical domestics out there fit the criteria? Forgive me if there's any ignorance in what I've said.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:27 PM   #8
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Impala, Cobalt(though it's not a classic), and the New Malibu...I'm sure the G8, the G6, G5 (aka, Cobalt ), the Solstice (if your into 2-seaters, then the Vette too.), the ION, and the Sky (aka, the Solstice)...I could go on.

Not trying to sound like an Ass, but it's only perception that says Domestics are worse then Imports.
And I doubt you could match any Import's "sportyness", or performance to a domestics, by the way
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:30 PM   #9
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Well, the Cobalt SS has been mentioned...although roomy probably isn't a description that most would use to describe it. It is comfortable for 1 or 2 people, so roomy is really based on how many people you want to carry (I don't think the back seat of the Camaro is a place I will want to spend much time either, so.....)

I don't know about the new ones yet, but the older Avengers were pretty much what you described. Now they have 4 doors and are a little larger, so hopefully they do well enough to stick around awhile. Quality will have to wait awhile to be judged since they are less than a year old.

How about the Monte Carlo? They get decent mileage, plenty of room (even in the back), decent trunk too. Nice styling (admittedly, my opinion), good performance, decently priced, and decent quality too. Not going to get 40+ like some econoboxes, but still mid-20's in town.

Ford's Focus SVT fit in there. Now, I don't personally like them, but many did. And, I thought they were overpriced for what you got, but still.

I'm sure there are others as well.....
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Not trying to sound like an Ass, but it's only perception that says Domestics are worse then Imports.
Well, that's certainly not something I was trying to infer.

The cars you mentioned, most, are not my style(bar the G8). Eventually more will be revealed, until then....
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Well, the Cobalt SS has been mentioned...although roomy probably isn't a description that most would use to describe it. It is comfortable for 1 or 2 people, so roomy is really based on how many people you want to carry (I don't think the back seat of the Camaro is a place I will want to spend much time either, so.....)

I don't know about the new ones yet, but the older Avengers were pretty much what you described. Now they have 4 doors and are a little larger, so hopefully they do well enough to stick around awhile. Quality will have to wait awhile to be judged since they are less than a year old.

How about the Monte Carlo? They get decent mileage, plenty of room (even in the back), decent trunk too. Nice styling (admittedly, my opinion), good performance, decently priced, and decent quality too. Not going to get 40+ like some econoboxes, but still mid-20's in town.

Ford's Focus SVT fit in there. Now, I don't personally like them, but many did. And, I thought they were overpriced for what you got, but still.

I'm sure there are others as well.....
I wouldn't be caught dead in either a Chrysler or Ford product. EVER!!! The smaller Zeta cars(if they happen, can't remember the platform name) might be something to look at as well, provided they aren't too small and they actually do get here.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:48 PM   #12
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I can understand someone concerned about fuel milege.Especially with gas prices the way they are now but lets be honest here.The general is saying the new camaro should have 400 hp in the base V-8.Even with modern technology I think its a bit much to expect milege in the mid to high 20's.My dad just bought a solstice and let me tell you its really nice.Not to mention its a 4 banger and if you want a little more power you could get the supercharged version.Just something to think about.I still say domestic is the way to go.I guess Im just a little patrotic when it comes to cars,sorry cant help it.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:21 AM   #13
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There is always a trade off somewhere.... just got to pick what you want over others..

corvette - Pro:Huge HP, Good Gas mileage(due to weight) - Cons: Expensive (weight)

Run of the mill small car - Pro: Great gas mileage, inexpensive - Cons: Low hp

Camaro V6- Pro : decent hp, decent gas mileage, average price - Cons - Middle of the road

Camaro V8- Pro: High HP, Cheaper than corvette - Con: lose some gas mileage

Its simple physics/economics, you get what you pay for or you pick and chose what characteristics are important to you. GM has addressed the mileage and price concern, its the V6 option.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:59 AM   #14
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GM also stated they wanted the V8 Camaro to achieve 30+mpg's. Could it be possible? Depends on how many people they get working on it, IMO. I think they could....but am expecting a high ball park on hwy mileage to be 28-29mpg's.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:20 AM   #15
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what a conversation

With the 2007 Z06 Corvette rated at 16/26 MPG those are damn good numbers for the power that car has available.

Making a statement like "refuse to buy a car that will go below my current 24.5 mpg combined std" and having requirements like:

-Sporty/Fun to drive
-High quality
-High performance
-Economical(to some degree)
-Real style, a classic
-Reasonably priced
-Roomy

You are really limiting yourself, You need to define 'High Performace'? Is it better handling? Low end power? Top end Power? All three?

Roomy - and you say you'd buy a Mini? I've been in a Mini a few times, while I am suprised at the legroom (I'm 6' tall), that car is far from "High Performance" and "Roomy"

And yes, quality on quite a few domestics is better than the imports as is MPG.
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:28 AM   #16
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To DerScotsman, don't take this as an offence, but if your thinking of buying a V-8 Camaro your not buying it for gas mileage, it's gonna have depending on what you get 400 + horses, it's a sports car. If it gets the 30 mpg that'll be a bonus.
Personally, I'd be happy with anything around the twentys. My 4.7 Dakota I get 13- 14 local, highway I can get about 21mpg.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:31 AM   #17
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I don't mean to be dramatical I just get sick of people wanting their zero calorie cake to taste better than the original.

That list of things doesn't come together you have to compromise on some of them. High Performance and economical well those can be had. but roomy. Well no, that adds weight. so economy and performance suffer.

Ok. so not buying european, ford or chrysler. ... unless your going japanese your running out of choices. if you want a lot of mileage get a V6. they will probabally get close 30. but your sacraficing performance.

Looking at todays make up of vehicles. only small cars really get much above 25MPG with average drivers. SUV's don't jeeps don't, trucks.. haha, the automatic camaro probabally won't.... but that too is a compromise.

If ya want an awesome ride ya have to sacrafice some gasoline and a few lunches probabally
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:58 AM   #18
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My wife's Scion xB get's about 30MPG city, my Mitsubishi Spyder gets about the same, my Avalanche get's around 17MPG (14 in the winter). My Jeep CJ7 gets 10MPG. The Avalanche and CJ have the biggest motors at 4.2L and 5.3L respectively. They also weigh a lot comparatively.

Technology and fuel choice can effect performance substantially. A 3.9L diesel in my jeep would be the same horsepower plus a little, and the Jeep would get around 28 to 30MPG. Several people have done the conversion and get in that range. One person has swapped a cummins into an Avalanche 2500 and he reports 28MPG. There are trade offs and many people wouldn't be found in an oil burner to save their life.

The hybrid craze is crazy. You're going to cut fuel consumption to save the environment and swap out a couple hundred pounds of lead and other nasty poisons in the batteries "and off to the land fill with them". Icky.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of performance and efficiency they get out of the Camaro. Those two are not necessarily separate. A good engine fuel/power map tuned to American roads and driving style can get the engine right. You don't have to just dump raw gas into the intake to make power. That being said there is only so much you're going to do with the size of reciprocating mass in a standard V8. If you want better efficiency you'd have to go to a wankel motor or other rotary stuffer to get more HP/Efficiency for the same amount of fuel.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:22 PM   #19
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with the way i will be driving the camaro the first few months ill probably be getting about 5 MPG
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:24 PM   #20
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Reminds me of an episode of American Hot Rod. The customer wanted a '63 split window Sting Ray with over 1000 HP and world class handling. He also wanted it with A/C, a full custom interior, and luxury items rivaling a Bentley. Simply put, he wanted a lightweight, Ferrari-class handling, Top Fuel dragster accelerating, Rolls Royce. The team kept arguing that it was just not gonna happen
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:00 PM   #21
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I think a lot of you have gone way way off on the depend end in this discussion. It's not a lot I'm asking for in actuality, especially considering how much more advanced automotive technology has become, we don't live in the 90's anymore, auto tech is in a whole nother time and place. I put this same question/concern to FBodFather via PM on CamaroZ28 and here's what he had to say:

Quote:
Quote:
First, let me say that I'm very appreciative for your participation here, you're apart of the excitement that motivates us in being Camaro enthusiasts.

My question is this, and I'm NOT asking for any privileged info, more so insight:

My current car gets about 24.5 mpg combined, I don't think I'd be comfortable going below that in the future given how things are with gas prices right now. Would holding the new Camaro(std. V8 option) to that standard be unreasonable? I sure hope I wouldn't be asking a whole lot, but I have faith in GM.
Hi!

A very good question. As you probaby know, the U.S. Government has changed how we rate MPG -- but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the fuel economy of all new Camaro powertrains -- we don't have final figures because we are still working on the engineering and validation of the Camaro -- but from what I do know -- we'll once again be a leader in terms of both performace -- fuel economy -- and tailpipe emissions -- just as the 4th gen car was!
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:34 PM   #22
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I refuse to buy a car that will go below my current 24.5 mpg combined std.
You should look at the Lotus Elise.

http://www.lotuscars.com/ExigeS.aspx

· 0-60 mph 4.1 sec

· 0-100 mph 11 sec

· Top Speed 148 mph

· Fuel Consumption 23 City / 29 Highway

· Curb Weight 2077 lbs



Not a bad package and you won't see one everyday either.

Not being critical, but I am not suprised by the reaction.... I don't believe that the vast majority of Camaro fans are as sensitive to MPGs as you appear to be.

Good luck with your search

JWz06.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:21 PM   #23
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DerScotsman its not that we are going over the deep end, it is whats been stated over and over, yes technology is better, yes chances are it will be in that ball park, BUT if the sole factor is gas mileage is the reason to buy or not to buy then we are saying be prepared (Just incase not becuase of any facts) to be disapointed.

That way your either prepared to not buy it OR you get a surprise.

Personaly I think the base v8 option will get in the 25ish MPG range if driven conservativly. But again its all just opinion.

As a source of reference though check out fuel economy.gov and pull up sporty cars and pick away
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:32 PM   #24
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Think a lot of you are missing the point of my concern, I don't care so much about city driving or highway driving, but what I get out of the combined cycle, which I'd hope for anyone, would matter most. I do a lot of highway/street driving in equal proportion. At this point I'm not to concerned about what the Camaro V8 will get, because I'm pretty dead cert that this will be indeed, my next car. Beyond that I trust GM to get the job done to the absolute best of their ability, and I know they will. I refuse to go for some dingy, pin head, econ box- the MINI is in a class of it's own where this is concerned as well as the MKV GTI and R32- but I'm not looking to put my money in a money pit. Something the 5th gen most certainly won't be.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:30 PM   #25
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You should look at the Lotus Elise.

http://www.lotuscars.com/ExigeS.aspx

· 0-60 mph 4.1 sec

· 0-100 mph 11 sec

· Top Speed 148 mph

· Fuel Consumption 23 City / 29 Highway

· Curb Weight 2077 lbs

Not a bad package and you won't see one everyday either.

Not being critical, but I am not suprised by the reaction.... I don't believe that the vast majority of Camaro fans are as sensitive to MPGs as you appear to be.

Good luck with your search

JWz06.
True, but you missed out on a couple of his requirements.....reasonably priced ($50K for that little car isn't really reasonable) and roomy. The Lotus makes the Miata seem spacious. Plus, unless you run at the track all day, the Lotus' ride is terrible. There is a guy in town here running around in one, and every time I see him, I think his teeth must be falling out his head from that harsh ride.

I will give you the rest though...high performance, high style, good mpg...not to mention easy to park/manuever.
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