Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
HRE Wheels
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Suspension / Brakes / Chassis


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-23-2011, 07:14 PM   #1
Fraxum


 
Fraxum's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 SS M6
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Joisey
Posts: 4,318
Send a message via AIM to Fraxum
Improve Camaro SS Handling Feel (Long Post)


Camaro SS in track action - Looking good.

First off let me state I drove and obsessed between the Mustang 5.0 and the Camaro SS and I am very happy with my choice. I am not going to bash my SS.

But in driving the two almost back to back it becomes apparent the Mustang feels like it handles better then the Camaro. But yet on the track (the kind with curves) they are very close as evidenced below.

Trying to achieve handling feel is not like the drags or dyno where you get hard numbers to back up your changes. It is all in the driving experience, the way driving the car makes you feel.

Car and Driver, the magazine many here now love to hate, does a cool thing every year with their Lightning Lap. They take the current crop of new cars back to the same track year after year so you can compare track times between different cars.

From this test we know the Brembo Mustang 5.0 is only slightly faster than the Camaro. One would assume the non-Brembo Mustang would not fare so well against the SS. Car and Driver also includes very concise summaries of each car that help explain how the drivers feel about the car they are hot-lappng.

The following two excerpts are from Car and Driver:

Quote:
Originally Posted by C&D LL 2011 - Mustang 5.0
With that package (the Brembo option), the GT turns a 3:08.6 lap, 0.9 second quicker than its longtime pony-car rival, the Camaro SS, managed in last year’s Lightning Lap…..The GT’s steering is above average. Turn-in is crisp, handling near neutral, and controlled trail braking is possible…..The GT exhibits a little more body roll than the GT500, which makes the side-to-side-in-your-seat banging around less intense and more tolerable…..Because the 5.0-liter is, once again, cool as ice. Vanilla Ice. (Sorry, this has nothing to do with handling, but I cannot resist Mustang Vanilla Ice references.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&D LL 2009 - Camaro SS
It might feel as wide as Nebraska and offer the outward visibility of a corn maze, but the Camaro SS is actually quite at home on the racetrack…..The Camaro leans slightly before it takes a set, and this initial roll compliance, combined with sluggish steering, is immediately noticeable on turn-in. It was especially apparent through the uphill esses, which require subtle, quick transitions from left to right. It all adds up to a momentary hesitation before the Camaro takes the desired course, and this minor delay made the car feel massive as it sluiced through the esses, exhibiting the gracelessness of a freighter.
So there you have it. Even though both cars track (at least on this fast track) about the same, the Ford feels better.

My question here for either modded suspension Camaro owners familiar with both cars or the suspension upgrade craftsman is how do we get that crisp neutral feel the Brembo Mustang possesses in the Camaro. Or conversely how do we get rid of the ponderous barge feeling in the Camaro?

I know the Mustang enjoys a 225 pound weight advantage but that cannot be the whole answer. I suppose some of this answer may lie in suspension geometry and steering hardware that is expensive to alter. But how much of this is the suspension and how much is the SUV heavy wheels and tires?

The Camaro has two big advantages over the mustang, a more rigid chassis and IRS. Why the disparity? We know the Chevy guys spent a lot of time tuning the Camaro suspension. Are the Ford guys that much better?

I am looking at upgrading My Camaros suspension in the spring. I know the rear sway bar will help with the understeer.

But how do I achieve that crisp, light on it's feet, tossable feel in my Camaro and lose the ocean freighter effect?
Fraxum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2011, 07:19 PM   #2
Milk 1027
Camaro➎ moderator
 
Milk 1027's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 BLK 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,546
Loose weight
__________________
Milk 1027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2011, 07:56 PM   #3
Fraxum


 
Fraxum's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 SS M6
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Joisey
Posts: 4,318
Send a message via AIM to Fraxum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milk 1027 View Post
Loose weight
Working on it! 25 so far.
Fraxum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:40 AM   #4
2quick

 
Drives: none
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the front
Posts: 1,146
pm sent
2quick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:03 AM   #5
ssmike
Missing Big Red
 
ssmike's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Corvette DSOM, '13 Equinox CRT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 6,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2quick View Post
pm sent
Please share! I want to know too!
__________________
Not a Camaro but it works for now!
ssmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:17 AM   #6
BMR guy

 
BMR guy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,099
We have been building both Camaro and Mustang suspensions for the last 13 years which gives us tons of test data from both vehicles. Over the years they have both packed on the weight however the Mustang tends to "wear" it better. This is mainly due to a better matched spring and sway bar combo, less suspension flex (can you say Camaro cradle bushings), less overall weight and lighter un-sprung suspension/wheel weight.

If you were to compare the Zeta Camaro to the 2010 or older S197 Mustangs, the Chevy would walk all over the Ford. The 2011 Mustang however has much improved spring and sway bars rates, way more usable power and with the Brembo option, better matched brakes for the weight of the vehicle.

That being said it's not too difficult to get your Camaro to out-perform the 2011 Mustang. A set of rear cradle bushing inserts to stabilize the rear suspension cradle, a set of lowering springs to increase the spring rate, and a set of adjustable swaybars to reduce the body roll. These 3 mods alone will edge you past the Mustang, despite the weight and braking disadvantages. The best thing about these mods is that the car will "feel" smaller and lighter in the process making the car even more enjoyable to drive...
BMR guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:37 AM   #7
ssmike
Missing Big Red
 
ssmike's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Corvette DSOM, '13 Equinox CRT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 6,558
So this would suggest using your level 1 kit plus rear cradle inserts, correct? My only concern is ride quality with lowering springs. How do the BMR 1" springs affect ride quality?
__________________
Not a Camaro but it works for now!
ssmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 10:08 AM   #8
ron8879
 
ron8879's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 LT1 VR CAMARO #14568
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: a rock throw away from st louis mo
Posts: 357
from what ive seen on here everyone has said that the combo of swaybars and springs makes the vehicle more crisp but not harsh....because of this, Im planning on going with brm when the time comes for my suspension upgrades (working on wheels and tires first)
__________________
Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?"
HOTROD...flowmaster exhaust, color matched antenna and drip rails, barton shifter, 4 pack gauges, leather armrest, color matched spoiler, and emblem delete, 20x9 chrome wheels
ron8879 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 10:09 AM   #9
BMR guy

 
BMR guy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmike View Post
So this would suggest using your level 1 kit plus rear cradle inserts, correct? My only concern is ride quality with lowering springs. How do the BMR 1" springs affect ride quality?
We spent a lot of time developing our springs to maintain an OE-like ride quality. It's not easy to increase spring rate without effecting how the car rides but I feel (and many customers as well) that we achieved a great balance between the two. The OE struts do a great job of accepting a lowered ride height as long as you don't go overboard. They dampen the new rates exceptionally well to the point where daily driving quality remains unaffected. Pushing the car hard in the corners is typically where you will feel the ride difference ...
BMR guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 10:46 AM   #10
ssmike
Missing Big Red
 
ssmike's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Corvette DSOM, '13 Equinox CRT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 6,558
One more question for BMR. What setting should the front and rear bars be set at on your level 1 kit for the street?
__________________
Not a Camaro but it works for now!
ssmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:07 AM   #11
BMR guy

 
BMR guy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmike View Post
One more question for BMR. What setting should the front and rear bars be set at on your level 1 kit for the street?
The suspension in this chassis is very forgiving when it comes to high roll rates. Meaning it takes a lot of sway bar before it begins to effect ride quality. Many of our customers run the stiffest setting front and rear but it will be completely up to your wheel/tire combination, weight bias, etc. to determine what works best for you. If your car has the OE weight bias (meaning no 500lb. stereo in the rear or twin turbo, iron blocked motor in the front) and OE-proportioned tires front and rear you don't need to mix holes front and rear. The car is very well balanced already and we designed our bars around those biases.

We typically recommend to start in the middle. This gives you a direction to go both ways. Even if you choose the softest setting, they are still a major improvement to the OE rates. If you start in the middle and have no problems with the ride quality, go up to the stiffest settings. I run the stiffest settings on my own personal car, drive it daily, and feel the ride quality remains very similar to OE.
BMR guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:10 AM   #12
ssmike
Missing Big Red
 
ssmike's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Corvette DSOM, '13 Equinox CRT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 6,558
Excellent info! Thank you very much!
__________________
Not a Camaro but it works for now!
ssmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:14 PM   #13
Fraxum


 
Fraxum's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 SS M6
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Joisey
Posts: 4,318
Send a message via AIM to Fraxum
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
We have been building both Camaro and Mustang suspensions for the last 13 years which gives us tons of test data from both vehicles. Over the years they have both packed on the weight however the Mustang tends to "wear" it better. This is mainly due to a better matched spring and sway bar combo, less suspension flex (can you say Camaro cradle bushings), less overall weight and lighter un-sprung suspension/wheel weight.

If you were to compare the Zeta Camaro to the 2010 or older S197 Mustangs, the Chevy would walk all over the Ford. The 2011 Mustang however has much improved spring and sway bars rates, way more usable power and with the Brembo option, better matched brakes for the weight of the vehicle.

That being said it's not too difficult to get your Camaro to out-perform the 2011 Mustang. A set of rear cradle bushing inserts to stabilize the rear suspension cradle, a set of lowering springs to increase the spring rate, and a set of adjustable swaybars to reduce the body roll. These 3 mods alone will edge you past the Mustang, despite the weight and braking disadvantages. The best thing about these mods is that the car will "feel" smaller and lighter in the process making the car even more enjoyable to drive...
This is what I was hoping for. I know the improved suspension parts will increase performance but I was hoping to capture the light on it's feet feel the Mustang has. I am a little leery of the lowering springs. Are these a vital component of the improved feel? Also, where does decreasing the unsprung weight fit into this? The Mustang may not be all that better off with the 19 inch wheels.
Fraxum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 10:20 PM   #14
VR Baron
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
 
VR Baron's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 VR 2SS RS M6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SO CAL
Posts: 13,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
We spent a lot of time developing our springs to maintain an OE-like ride quality. It's not easy to increase spring rate without effecting how the car rides but I feel (and many customers as well) that we achieved a great balance between the two. The OE struts do a great job of accepting a lowered ride height as long as you don't go overboard. They dampen the new rates exceptionally well to the point where daily driving quality remains unaffected. Pushing the car hard in the corners is typically where you will feel the ride difference ...
Brett

Are the ss shocks the same as v6 shocks or at least close enough to be able to control drop springs? I have Hotchkis and they work very well together, but haven't read anywhere where anyone for sure knows, only that they are close.if not would SS shocks control better on bad pavement where the car doesn't feel as controlled and you are running out of wheel travel to fast,or is it just the bad road?
__________________
#1 car 2010 Black 2LTRS 1/28/10-10/15/11, 17900 miles
#2 car 2012 Red 2SSRS 10/15/11-
Mods: Outlaw Axelback & J Pipes/Heritage&Stillen Grill/Halltech CAI/Apex Scoop,Washer Bottle/OEM Strut Tower Brace/VMax T/B/ G.M. Blade Spoiler/SLP Splitter/ Forgestar cf10 wheels & Michelin Super Sport tires/JBA Shorty Headers,HiFlow cats & tune/Remote Clutch resovoir/ Pedders Supercar coilovers and Pedders 27mm/32mm ZL1 Spec sway bars / Whiteline craddle Inserts & Upper rear arm bushes/ 416/414 RW HP/TQ
VR Baron is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Must post picture of a Chevy to win. "prima"Donna Off-topic Discussions 74980 09-13-2013 11:33 PM
Modern Camaro Performance - Lowest Prices Anywhere! PartsTaxi.com Sponsor Announcements / Giveaways / Contests 0 11-03-2010 10:50 AM
Modern Camaro Performance Parts - www.PartsTaxi.com PartsTaxi.com Sponsor Announcements / Giveaways / Contests 0 10-06-2010 04:26 PM
Drag Racing Suspension Kits Info@PeddersUSA.com Suspension / Chassis / Brakes 25 02-21-2010 08:48 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.