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Old 07-25-2007, 03:34 PM   #1
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People underestimating the potential of the 5th gen

I've been around quite a few circles both on/off line where people have made comments concerning the potential handling of the new Camaro, pigeon-holing it by saying it will be like every other muscle car before it; quick in the straight line, all over the place in the corners. Go to show not only how ignorant they are, but how little they really do know. The Vauxhall VRX8(5th gen platform mate) has been getting all sorts of rave reviews where it's been branded a "cut price M5"- the handling/performance ratio is that good. Can't wait to slaughter some E92 335's and M3's.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:28 PM   #2
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Yep, Its like the old arguement over IRS Vrs Live Axle... if you sit down and take the facts without old grudges or opinions the value and perfromance is there.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:51 PM   #3
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do you think the first v8's not the SS or Z28 will be able to take the new m3 420 HP v8 on a straight?
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:21 PM   #4
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How much does the new M3 weight?
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:22 PM   #5
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I believe it's around 3500lbs for the Mt. 420hp@ 8300 (holy god it's a rev monster) and 295 lb-ft @3900. Sounds almost Honda is to me. You know, high revving, high hp, low torque in comparison to the Hp. In a straight away, depending on the gears, I'd think it's be a drivers race. But I don't know how this new platform on the Camaro will compare to the BMW as far as handling.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:36 PM   #6
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Camaro will win that, hands down, it's the torque that wins, not so much the hp. 400 lbs/ft. of torque in our boy, versus 295 in the Beamer...I rest my case...(though I really never had one )
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:21 PM   #7
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I'd say it mostly depends on the gear ratios like urbanlegend said along with drivers ability. Off the line with 400+ torque will get the car moving for sure so im just gonna say Camaro!!!
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:48 PM   #8
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I say Camaro because I'm biased. even though I do love the M3.
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:56 PM   #9
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How long is the line?

1/4 mile, the Beemer might run down a torque-savvy but heavy Camaro.

1/8th mile though the Camaro should be walking all over the Beemer.
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:38 PM   #10
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but, 1/3 mile and plus (not really a drag race per say), Camaro should destroy it. If the Beamer has to rev at 8000+ to make it's 420 hp, then it won't have much, if any, torque to work with at those speeds. Seeing the peak torque is at 3900.

The LS3 is supposed to have an incredibly flat torque curve, like the LS2. meaning 400+/- ft/lbs. throughout it's 6500 +/- rpm range. and at 430 hp, and 400 ft/lbs. then how could a Beamer possibly, even at ideal conditions, beat it with 420 hp, and 290 ft/lbs?

I can't see it happining. I'm sure the Beamer will pull ahead off the start, due to the nature of it's high-revving engine. but Camaro has all that power available at relatively low rpm compared to the Beamer. So IT should take the Beamer to school...my $0.02...
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:35 AM   #11
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But how much torque can you hook off the line?

BMW's philosophy is that you simply can't hook 400_lbft off the line, so why have it. They give you _pretty good_ torque but more importantly they have a V-8 that LOVES to rev... thus it can rip to its redline fast enough to make things interesting.

www.windingroad.com 's newest issue has a GREAT review of the new M3, and that beast is going to be hard to beat round a track! It's certainly doable, but when you read the spec's (and the price $60K!) you realize how much technology is crammed in that thing! It IS a little heavy (3650lbs unladen) so we have a shot at a better power/weight ratio.

That being said... IF you can manage to hook all the torque in the Camaro, and it weighs under 3700lbs, I think the Camaro will stay in front.

Personally I don't drag race, so my focus is on the suspension design/setup and from what I have read so far, I am lead to believe the new Camaro will be a wicked road racing car as well; multi-pivot mac-strut front suspension, 5 link rear suspension, ~50/50 weight balance, super-stiff chassis, big brakes, etc.

I doubt anyone will have trouble holding onto an M3 with this new car on any track... if the Z06 is any indication of what GM engineers can do, we should be smiling at them in our mirrors!


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Old 07-29-2007, 02:10 PM   #12
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+1 on the gearing like others have said.

I garauntee that the high revving BMW M3 will have steep enough gears to multiply that torque to the ground.
The gear ratios of both the tranny and the rear end will have to be considered too. Because it is entirely possible with that 8300rpm red line the new M3 might be putting more torque to the ground than the new camaro even if its engine doesn't produce as much torque. The gearing will take care of it. I'm not going to make a decision until I see more than just the engine stats.

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

I've given this link before I think, but it is very educational. Especially when talking about which is more important HP or TQ. Actually I am having deja vu writing this but oh well.
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Old 07-29-2007, 05:18 PM   #13
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Well, if you compare the two engines by dyno results, it looks good for the M3... its making 295lbft from 3500rpm all the way to 6500rpm!

The LS3 is making ~330lbft around 2500rpm but it falls off sharply after 5000rpm, so the M3 has a wider, flatter curve but it doesn't peak as high as the LS3.

And one point about gearing... the more gearing you have the FASTER your engine has to rev to keep up with the desired acceleration. Low torque is OK, but your engine had BETTER want to rev mighty fast to keep up with what the wheels are asking for!

Either way, more info is really needed...

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Old 07-30-2007, 12:40 AM   #14
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Which Graph belongs to which Engine? I'm not that good.

Obviously the middle one belongs to the BMW...but the LS3?
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