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Old 02-01-2009, 01:12 PM   #1
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Am I wrong in my thinking.....if so tell me why

FIRST OFF, PLEASE KEEP THIS CIVIL. I DON'T WANT THIS THREAD CLOSED.

A buddy of mine recently offered to give me access to GSU (supplier) pricing on a new Camaro if I wanted to order a 2010 rather than waiting. See my thread here:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11887

The dealer I worked with has been great, answering questions and keeping me updated on various things on the car, however they told me yesterday they are not going to accept any discounts at this time.

I thought about it over night, slept on it, and thought about it some more this morning before making this thread, but here's my issue with this whole deal....

GM has announced in their January 9, 2009 IDL that all discounts on the car are accepted by them, meaning GM. However they left it open to the dealers to decline any discounts if they so choose. That just doesn't seem right to me. I mean if the parent company is offering something, shouldn't the franchises have to accept it?

Now, having said that, I'll go a step farther. I'm now part owner of GM based on all the bail out money they received. I mean they flat out told Congress it would be very difficult for them to even remain in business through December without MY money (meaning tax payer dollars). Being part owner, to now be told "yes there is a discount, but no we're not going to let you use it" seems like a slap in the face to me.

I would attribute this as follows:

Let's say you have a guy in your neighborhood with a lawn care business. Times are tough and he's struggling. He comes around to all his neighbors asking for a loan to keep his business afloat. Your neighborhood association raises their fee by $200 a month to help this guy, meaning everyone who lives in the neighborhood's house note goes up by $200. The money goes to him to keep his business running. You see he's offering a discount on lawn service and go see him about doing some work in your yard only to have him tell you that the discount doesn't apply to your neighborhood, you have to pay full price. Would you be OK with that?

If I'm wrong in my thinking, don't just tell me so, tell me why. The more I think on it the more pissed I'm getting. Especially now that I'm seeing more dealers offering GMS, GMU and $500 over invoice deals on 2010 Camaro Pre Sold Orders.

Again, please keep it civil.

Discuss.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:25 PM   #2
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While you are correct about dealers giving discounts, as you stated above it is up to them wether or not to honor them. Maybe you could ask around if other dealers in your area accept the discounts you listed, and use that info against your current dealer. I too find it completely ludicrous that a dealer would not accept discounts despite what GM said.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:56 PM   #3
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That does suck, but I'm afraid it's like the markups many dealers are adding - out of GM's hands. Now, maybe the discounts are different and GM does have leverage over the dealers to force them to accept them, but I haven't seen that stated here, yet.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanys View Post
While you are correct about dealers giving discounts, as you stated above it is up to them wether or not to honor them. Maybe you could ask around if other dealers in your area accept the discounts you listed, and use that info against your current dealer. I too find it completely ludicrous that a dealer would not accept discounts despite what GM said.
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That does suck, but I'm afraid it's like the markups many dealers are adding - out of GM's hands. Now, maybe the discounts are different and GM does have leverage over the dealers to force them to accept them, but I haven't seen that stated here, yet.
Therein lies my problem with this whole thing. Why should it be up to the dealers if the parent company is accepting them? Maybe I'm just ignorant to franchise laws and what not but it is really absurd to put the customer, as well as the dealer, in that position. It really sends a mixed message to the customer who is looking to spend about $30K - $40K on one of their products. It's like he said she said and IMO looks pretty bad, especially considering the current state of affairs.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:22 PM   #5
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I guess what would bother me would be the dealer taking discounts for the car and using it as additional profit instead of giving it to the buyer. I don't know if that is even possible, but in this climate I would not be surprised if some less than honest dealers tried this.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:32 PM   #6
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Yup this all comes from franchise laws. It really is out of GM's hands. It is stupid, and it is the franchise laws that are really killing GM. I appreciate the intent to protect small businesses, but franchise laws need some reform.
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:36 PM   #7
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I think that opting to not give discounts is fair. All dealerships are their own entity. Even if they do get their supply for the same price, some dealerships cant afford to give discounts. A bigger dealership on the other hand may be able to honor the discounts because they make more sales and get more trade-ins(which by the way is where they make their money). If it is a big dealership that you ordered from, Id politely ask for them to reconsider or you'll just go somewhere else. If it is small I would still ask politely but then if they say no Id ask why and maybe try to make a deal of some sort. Sometimes being nice will get you alot of things you want. In this time of recession, I dont think they can afford to lose a customer As for your idea of being part owner due to the fact that tax money is being lent, I think thats the wrong way to look at it. If it were true Id be part owner of my city, anyone on welfare, the prison.......
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:41 PM   #8
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GM's loans came out of TARP (the money intended for the broken banks that caused all of this...)...which, to my understanding was borrowed money in and of itself. (might be wrong in that, though)

EDIT: Still...I don't think this would mean we have any ownership in them. When you apply for a loan at a bank, the bank doesn't own part of you, right?...this the same thing -- 'cept the gov't has to act as a huge-a$$ bank because the real ones are collapsing (or redecorating their offices )...

As for the rest -- I wouldn't say you were wrong at all. You have every right to be pissed. I would advise you to look for other dealers. GM is willing to accept discounts, but the dealer doesn't want to do it. And they can do that because as others have said: franchise laws, etc...so screw him and find someone else . Perhaps you feel we should all be treated more special or something given the loans...but I don't think this situation is GM's fault to begin with. All US dealers reserve this right, iirc. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Dodge, Honda, etc...if you're a dealer -- I'm pretty sure you're 'protected' under these laws.

Speaking of which...I don't think your analogy quite fits. I would say this is more accurate:

Quote:
Let's say you have a guy in your neighborhood with a lawn care business. Times are tough and he's struggling. He comes around to all his neighbors asking for a loan to keep his business afloat. Your neighborhood association raises their fee by $200 a month to help this guy, meaning everyone who lives in the neighborhood's house note goes up by $200. The money goes to him to keep his business running. You see he's offering a discount on lawn service and go see one of his workers doing some work in your yard only to have the worker tell you that even though his boss offered a discount to you for assisting him, he doesn't want to accept it. Would you be OK with that?
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:51 PM   #9
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So, in the case of these employee, supplier, whatever discounts, GM still gets invoice for the car and the dealer takes the whole loss? If that's the case I too don't blame the dealers for refusing them.
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:56 PM   #10
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Fast food franchises sometimes have different pricing and don't always accept discounts of the parent.
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:44 PM   #11
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All very good points here. Franchise laws seem screwey to me.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
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So, in the case of these employee, supplier, whatever discounts, GM still gets invoice for the car and the dealer takes the whole loss? If that's the case I too don't blame the dealers for refusing them.
To the best of my knowledge the dealer takes the entire hit except in the case of GMS (employee) in which the dealer gets rebated enough money by GM to effectively take the sale back to invoice price.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:26 AM   #13
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All very good points here. Franchise laws seem screwey to me.
It is capitalistic. In other words, it's your choice to give that dealer your money, or to take it elsewhere.

I would take it elsewhere, personally. That's the choice the dealer is making.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:32 AM   #14
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Yep, that sucks because there's a reason you chose that dealer to begin with. I'm sure you'd rather go with them than start over. However, if they won't play, find someone else that will, assuming the supplier pricing discounts are not tied to a specific dealership. (don't know much about supplier discount pricing rules)
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:39 AM   #15
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Gill accents?

Is there any discussion on accents for the side "Gills"? The '69 had the option of chrome accents. This design feature is best when dressed up. I didn't see anything in the GM Performance catalog that touched on this.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:42 AM   #16
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Yep, that sucks because there's a reason you chose that dealer to begin with. I'm sure you'd rather go with them than start over. However, if they won't play, find someone else that will, assuming the supplier pricing discounts are not tied to a specific dealership. (don't know much about supplier discount pricing rules)
If you qualify for a discount it is good at ANY Chevy (GM) dealer who chooses to accept it.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:47 AM   #17
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Is there any discussion on accents for the side "Gills"? The '69 had the option of chrome accents. This design feature is best when dressed up. I didn't see anything in the GM Performance catalog that touched on this.
Seeing as how ^^^^ is off topic with this particular thread , but is an interesting subject, you may want to consider starting a new thread.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:33 AM   #18
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When you apply for a loan at a bank, the bank doesn't own part of you, right?
When you apply for a loan at a bank, the bank owns whatever you're taking the loan on. Cars and houses are the most common example. The only time they don't is if it's an unsecured loan, like a credit card.

Still, no matter how you slice it, the bailout doesn't mean individuals have any more say in how GM is run than they had before.

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All very good points here. Franchise laws seem screwey to me.
You seem to be looking at it like the dealers (or Burger King retail locations) are part of the parent company, and franchise laws grant them additional priveleges. That's not how it is at all. They are totally independent businesses who only sell one brand, and in return for only selling that brand (as well as possibly paying some fees), they get to use that brand's logos and procedures. Imagine if Best Buy only sold Goldstar-branded merchandise; they could still set their own prices and not honor manufacturers coupons.

Damn. The fast food thing is making me want some Wendy's.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy1975 View Post
I'm now part owner of GM based on all the bail out money they received. I mean they flat out told Congress it would be very difficult for them to even remain in business through December without MY money (meaning tax payer dollars). Being part owner, to now be told "yes there is a discount, but no we're not going to let you use it" seems like a slap in the face to me.
Can the members of the bank that owns you're house (if you still have a mortgage) come into you're house and tell you what channel to watch on TV or what color carpet you can use. No.
So therfore You can't expect to require you're dealer to honor the discounts if they don't want to based solely on you being aprox. 1/200,000,000th of the lender. You're dealer is probably in a higher tax bracket than you. Meaning he pays more taxes so under you're premise of being part of the lender of the money, he holds more shares (so to speak) than you.

SHOULD the dealer honor the discounts. ABSOLUTELY! Find a new dealer and let him know why you went somewhere else.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
When you apply for a loan at a bank, the bank owns whatever you're taking the loan on. Cars and houses are the most common example. The only time they don't is if it's an unsecured loan, like a credit card.

Still, no matter how you slice it, the bailout doesn't mean individuals have any more say in how GM is run than they had before.



You seem to be looking at it like the dealers (or Burger King retail locations) are part of the parent company, and franchise laws grant them additional priveleges. That's not how it is at all. They are totally independent businesses who only sell one brand, and in return for only selling that brand (as well as possibly paying some fees), they get to use that brand's logos and procedures. Imagine if Best Buy only sold Goldstar-branded merchandise; they could still set their own prices and not honor manufacturers coupons.

Damn. The fast food thing is making me want some Wendy's.
Ah, OK. I never realized how dealer and manufacturers were related. Thanks for educating me on that.

Personally, I'd pay a little more to buy from this dealer as they've earned some profit for dealing with my questions, always treating me with respect, and just their over all attitude. However, I'm not willing to pay full MSRP on a car that GM hopes to sell 100K units a year on. We ALL know the Camaro is designed to steal Mustang sales and will be made in quantity and readily available.

I'm going to check with another local dealer on lunch to see what they tell me.
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:01 PM   #21
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However, I'm not willing to pay full MSRP on a car that GM hopes to sell 100K units a year on. We ALL know the Camaro is designed to steal Mustang sales and will be made in quantity and readily available.
But, by the way things are going with how the govnt wants them to use the loan, it doesnt look very good for the camaro. Also with individual states being allowed to set their own emission standards and how manufacturers are going green, I dont see these big motor vehicles being built for too much longer. Also you have to take into account the economy, gas prices...... Hopefully Im wrong.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:38 PM   #22
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Also with individual states being allowed to set their own emission standards and how manufacturers are going green, I dont see these big motor vehicles being built for too much longer. Also you have to take into account the economy, gas prices...... Hopefully Im wrong.
Those things aren't new. It's all a repeat of the 70s and 80s. Big vehicles not only were continued, but got bigger than ever, and everything (including small cars) is more powerful than ever.

Gas crisis, major recession, environmentalism, fuel economy...nothing stops us Americans from driving the yachts we want.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:55 PM   #23
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As screwy as it is, the laws are there to protect the small business. Sometimes they may not work to our benefit. As Scott would say, there are 3199 other dealers out there. Take your business elsewhere.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:09 PM   #24
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As screwy as it is, the laws are there to protect the small business. Sometimes they may not work to our benefit. As Scott would say, there are 3199 other dealers out there. Take your business elsewhere.
Made several calls today. One local dealer wanted a $2K deposit and $5K over invoice (I checked and they're already in the Gouging Dealers list). I ripped that guy a new one only to have him say "we're one of the cheapest in town". I quickly informed him I already had a deal at MSRP but wouldn't even accept that. Shut him up pretty quick. Two other dealers locally are doing MSRP but no discounts.

Bottom line, looks like I can get one almost anywhere locally for MSRP. Just gotta find that one dealer willing to negotiate a little. I did e-mail Basil in NY that's doing the $500 over invoice to see how that would work with getting the car to TN.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:16 PM   #25
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Here is the reality the dealer network for GM is some of the worst dealers on the planet with an exception of a few! They sit and complain to GM they need product and always tell GM what they want or need, but single handed they will ruin this launch! Some with the non acceptance of discounts!! Others with the insane mark ups they are already asking!! GM's biggest problem with there cars and a huge part of there perception is the Dealerships!
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