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Old 02-01-2009, 10:49 PM   #1
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Angry Fouth Gen Camaro vs. Subaru STi

Hello Folks,
I have a friend, who I always get into a certain conversation with that bugs the heck out of me:

Everytime we get into a car discussion, he talks about how great the Subaru STi is (BTW not the WRX STi). And everytime I say that a Camaro (spesifically the fourth generation) is faster he flips out and talks so much trash.

Which one is faster? Because when I go on youtube, all I see is Fourth Gen Camaro's beating the hell out of some modded STi. What'll happen is that the STi will get the better launch, but in no time at all the Camaro will catch up and pass it.

Stock for stock, will an STi beat a Camaro? If not, what'll it take to beat one I wonder?

He said he was saving to get one (his "dream car"). Can't wait until I get my DL, hopefully I'll allready have my "dream car". (Dad has a 94 Z28)

The STi is like the ultimate ricer too, right?
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:02 AM   #2
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The STi is a high-quality car. It has many advantages in many different categories. Don't underestimate one of the world's strongest AWD manufacturers. They work hard on their suspensions, and their turbochargers can be easily swapped to create even more menacing road beasts.

The Z28 is also a mean machine. Be sure to have it appropriately modified. Japanese cars have a reputation for being "riced out," meaning that the STi is likely to have bolt-ons at the very least. You should respond with similar or superior treatments, including suspension work and even more serious modifications, like an aggressive cam swap.

The truth is that these cars tend to compete in different categories. The STi is oriented toward rally racing while the Z28 is more of a quarter mile pet. Establish what kind of races you want to win before preparing your car for victory. You can't expect to win track evens, autocross events, and rally events with the same car.

Pick your battles, then pick your mods.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:14 AM   #3
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Hmm...you know Blur, I didn't think about those factors.

Well, on a track, I guess it's kinda of a given that an STi would win.

My assumption was on a 1/4 mile sort of track, and if I mod it, I would want to mod it towards a straight track. I dont' think I want to mod it towards something it's wasn't really designed for. (IE: I would want to win on the Camaro's turf A track isn't a typical muscle car's turf )

You're also right in that you shouldn't underestimate it...I agree.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
Hmm...you know Blur, I didn't think about those factors.

Well, on a track, I guess it's kinda of a given that an STi would win.

My assumption was on a 1/4 mile sort of track, and if I mod it, I would want to mod it towards a straight track. I dont' think I want to mod it towards something it's wasn't really designed for. (IE: I would want to win on the Camaro's turf A track isn't a typical muscle car's turf )

You're also right in that you shouldn't underestimate it...I agree.
I talk a lot about how I resent my Subaru, but the fair truth is that they design incredible performers. Most of my frustration stems from driving a car that was not entirely or even minutely my choice. I'd rather not get into the specifics at this juncture, but I have a lot of respect for Subaru products to say the least. They might have a JDM or ricer reputation, but they win races and have earned a reputation despite their occasionally ridiculous drivers.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:35 AM   #5
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...but they win races and have earned a reputation despite their occasionally ridiculous drivers.
Yes, I agree.

Ok, so my goal is set, when I have the $$$, I would probably want to race on a straight 1/4 mile track of the sort.

And I now know the next time I see one on a curvy road, act like I'm lost.
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:23 AM   #6
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The only conversation worth having is stock vs. stock. It depends on what year STI one is talking about. Any STI will soundly beat a stock LT1. And with an LS1 it comes down to a drivers race.

Rated 0-60/1/4mile? 2006 STI 4.9/13.2 2002 4th Gen SS 5.2/13.2
Magazine 0-60/1/4mile? 2006 STI 5.0/13.0 4th Gen 5.2/13.6
Dragtimes average 1/4 mile? STI 13.4 4th Gen 13.4

That makes it a drivers race. AWD on the STI gives it an advantage 0-60 off the line. 4th gens makes it up on the back end (if they got a good launch).

There have been a few factory freak 4th gens that got down to 12.8, but that also seems to have happened with Subarus also. (see link above)
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Old 02-02-2009, 05:09 AM   #7
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My first car was a 1986 Subaru RX Turbo... The only race I ever lost in high school was to a 1979 Firebird Formula w/ a big block 400 in it. That was a great first car... I'm glad that the only loss was to an F-body. I did race a dirt bike one time that was faster in the straights than I was , but couldn't keep up in the twisties... that was really fun!
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:14 PM   #8
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But that doesn't mean the LT1 is lost? It's not like it would loose horribly. Right? Wouldn't it just take a few mods to beat it?

:( :( :(

That is my goal, when I have some extra cash, put it towards beating the heck out of his "dream car"...
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaSSt View Post
The only conversation worth having is stock vs. stock. It depends on what year STI one is talking about. Any STI will soundly beat a stock LT1. And with an LS1 it comes down to a drivers race.



That makes it a drivers race. AWD on the STI gives it an advantage 0-60 off the line. 4th gens makes it up on the back end (if they got a good launch).

There have been a few factory freak 4th gens that got down to 12.8, but that also seems to have happened with Subarus also. (see link above)
I beg to differ on that.


AWD helping off the line is a yes/no type thing. yes, you are applying power to all 4 wheels from the start, but you are dividing the power more ways.

being turbo'd, it will have better results once the car is moving. LT1s have ass loads of torque down low. the power band goes to ~285 from 1800rpms all the way thru ~5800rpms.

what that means is that if you can launch, you can get off the line in a hurry. it would be a close match depending on what all mods the STI has.

and being that your LT1 is over 14 years old, im sure the transmission wont shift like it should at WOT. (just a fact of life with these cars)
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
and being that your LT1 is over 14 years old, im sure the transmission wont shift like it should at WOT. (just a fact of life with these cars)
Yea, you're right. Although it was recently rebuilt though...

EDIT: (BTW, I appreciate the imput guys)
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
Yea, you're right. Although it was recently rebuilt though...

EDIT: (BTW, I appreciate the imput guys)

where was it rebuilt at? do you know what all they did to it? new rings? bearings? line hone? etc? jw.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:22 PM   #12
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I think it was everything...I have to check w/my dad...I forgot

Last edited by MrCool; 02-02-2009 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
I beg to differ on that.

AWD helping off the line is a yes/no type thing. yes, you are applying power to all 4 wheels from the start, but you are dividing the power more ways.

being turbo'd, it will have better results once the car is moving. LT1s have ass loads of torque down low. the power band goes to ~285 from 1800rpms all the way thru ~5800rpms.

what that means is that if you can launch, you can get off the line in a hurry. it would be a close match depending on what all mods the STI has.
Well soundly is relative. All of your assertions are also relative. How about some facts.

FACT In a 1/4 mile race the LT1 can expect to be beat by 0.8-1.0 seconds or about 10 car lengths. Best stock LT1 times are around 14.0, most in high 14's. Best WRX time is 12.8 with many low 13's.

FACT WRX STI is rated 0-60 at 4.9, LT1 camaro is rated 6.3. Camaro is destroyed off the line. (There's another relative term.)

FACT Power to weight ratio favors Subaru:
WRX STI: 3000 lbs. / 300 hP = 10 lbs. per horsepower.
LT1 Camaro: 3400 lbs. / 275 hP = 12.4 lbs. per horsepower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool View Post
But that doesn't mean the LT1 is lost? It's not like it would loose horribly. Right? Wouldn't it just take a few mods to beat it?
That is my goal, when I have some extra cash, put it towards beating the heck out of his "dream car"...
Your camaro needs a boost of 70-100 horsepower (more than a few bolt-ons). A very good tranny as stated and a good torque converter, suspension/tire mods to allow full throttle takeoffs. Cheapest way is to spray it with a 100 shot, that would be a good race for 1/4. Of course you need more if the STI is modified.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hopefully that's better than finding out other ways.

Last edited by blaSSt; 02-03-2009 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaSSt View Post
Well soundly is relative. All of your assertions are also relative. How about some facts.

FACT In a 1/4 mile race the LT1 can expect to be beat by 0.8-1.0 seconds or about 10 car lengths. Best stock LT1 times are around 13.8, most in low 14's. Best WRX time is 12.8 with many low 13's.

FACT WRX STI is rated 0-60 at 4.9, LT1 camaro is rated 6.3. Camaro is destroyed off the line. (There's another relative term.)

FACT Power to weight ratio favors Subaru:
WRX STI: 3000 lbs. / 300 hP = 10 lbs. per horsepower.
LT1 Camaro: 3400 lbs. / 275 hP = 12.4 lbs. per horsepower.

Your camaro needs a boost of 70-100 horsepower (more than a few bolt-ons). A very good tranny as stated and a good torque converter, suspension/tire mods to allow full throttle takeoffs. Cheapest way is to spray it with a 100 shot, that would be a good race for 1/4. Of course you need more if the STI is modified.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hopefully that's better than finding out other ways.
Based upon these statistics, we can deduce what we will need to do to your car to get some quality wins. I hope you have about $4k in the bank for immediate disposal. Install headers and a catback exhaust. I'll let the other guys argue about which ones to buy. Get an intake from a good company, like K&N or SLP. Get the MSD distributor that is available for 1994 to 1996 applications. At this point, get the car tuned at a dyno so we know where you stand.

Remove some weight (114 lbs) if you can afford this.

If your internals have already been upgraded, I would also recommend supercharging your engine. In my research, a lot of LT1 owners like ProCharger because other applications are so expensive to install, plus there have been clearance issues due to the structure of the hood. If you are installing forced induction, you may want to consider getting an aftermarket hood. I would recommend making sure that whatever you install involves an intercooler and careful tuning in order to make sure that you get the most for your dollar and don't blow anything up.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
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...Camaro is destroyed off the line. (There's another relative term.)...
Ok, I'll accept that maby you will need a few extra $$$ for a car that is over a decade older than the STi.

Last edited by MrCool; 07-12-2010 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:28 PM   #16
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where was it rebuilt at? do you know what all they did to it? new rings? bearings? line hone? etc? jw.
Well, because we don't exactly have a shop (and because it's automatic), he just went to a mechanic and asked for a full rebuild. So, if he did as he was paid to, evrerthing. But other than, the optispark we are replacing, it's running fine.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:21 AM   #17
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But I know there is one thing a ricer or any European car WILL NEVER be able to do as good as a Camaro straight from the dealer, IN THEIR DREAMS:
ROTFLMAO

I bet you think that was a "straight from the dealer" LT1.

I say race the guy, right now, just as you are. Be sure and video it and bring it back here.

While you're at it go pick on a few European cars like:









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Old 02-04-2009, 06:20 PM   #18
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I'm not an idot, I know they weren't stock the hood obvioiusly, but lets see a lambourgini do a burout better than a Camaro...videotape that for me why don't you...
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:22 PM   #19
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Ok, I'll accept that maby you will need a few extra $$$ for a car that is over a decade older than the STi.
Plus, I never said my LT1 would beat a European car at racing...I said it would do a burout better than a European or a ricer.


Maby I need to write it more clearly for you next time...my apoligies, didn't know I had to be that specific.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:24 PM   #20
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ROTFLMAO

I bet you think that was a "straight from the dealer" LT1.

I say race the guy, right now, just as you are. Be sure and video it and bring it back here.

While you're at it go pick on a few European cars like:
Besides if a Camaro is so slow for you, why don't you buy a European car, I bet you can buy SOMETHING for the amount you sell your SS for.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:52 PM   #21
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You have an LT1. Get used to smack talk. The only good LT1 is a highly modified one. Loved mine, but got rid of it for an LS1 as soon as I could.

Get you some Loyd Elliot heads and bumpy cam, headers into true duals, built tranny/nasty high stall, and a 9" with full suspension, and some good drag radials. Then, you start taking people's money. Add spray and you're taking $100's every weekend in the city if you play it right.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:34 PM   #22
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I'm not an idot, I know they weren't stock the hood obvioiusly, but lets see a lambourgini do a burout better than a Camaro...videotape that for me why don't you...

Different style but a pretty awesome burnout, highly likely a stock one too, Better than any straight from the dealer LT1 burnout I've ever seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool
Ok, I'll accept that maby you will need a few extra $$$ for a car that is over a decade older than the STi.
Has nothing to do with age. The LT1 Camaro was not ever capable of hanging with an STI. That Camaro wasn't designed to do it. The Blur's $4K assessment is about right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool
Besides if a Camaro is so slow for you, why don't you buy a European car, I bet you can buy SOMETHING for the amount you sell your SS for.
My Camaro (an LS1) was designed on a level that hangs close to an STI. Now it will destroy 99% of the STI's on the road. It's my Trailblazer that only hangs with them. (and destroys stock LT1 cars )
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:25 PM   #23
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Alright, I'm willing to give in...
So from what you're saying, the LT1 was pretty much a worthless car for it's price compared the the STi and pretty much in general.

It pretty much boils down to what car you like better.

Personally, I'm willing to put the extra $$$ into an LT1. Thanks for the thoughts and the facts...
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:38 PM   #24
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Get you some Loyd Elliot heads and bumpy cam, headers into true duals, built tranny/nasty high stall, and a 9" with full suspension, and some good drag radials. Then, you start taking people's money. Add spray and you're taking $100's every weekend in the city if you play it right.
What is a "bumpy" cam. I know what a camshaft is, what does "bumpy" denote?
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:06 AM   #25
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Alright, I'm willing to give in...
So from what you're saying, the LT1 was pretty much a worthless car for it's price compared the the STi and pretty much in general.

It pretty much boils down to what car you like better.

Personally, I'm willing to put the extra $$$ into an LT1. Thanks for the thoughts and the facts...
I NEVER said that and I would disagree with anyone who did. I have stated what a stock LT1 is designed to do and what a stock STI is designed to do.

The Camaro was a little more than half of what the early STI's went for. ($17,000 in 1994 for a Z28, $31,000 for a STI) The Camaro is/was a very respectable package and a good value.

Let's go back to your original question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCool
Which one is faster? Because when I go on youtube, all I see is Fourth Gen Camaro's beating the hell out of some modded STi. What'll happen is that the STi will get the better launch, but in no time at all the Camaro will catch up and pass it.

Stock for stock, will an STi beat a Camaro? If not, what'll it take to beat one I wonder?
Plain and simple the STI wins in all performance categoties. That is fact shown many ways.

Every time that is demonstrated, you change the parameters....who does the better burnout....for the price....

I prefer the styling of the Camaro. Best of luck with the build.
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