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Old 02-01-2011, 05:30 PM   #1
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416 Reliability?

I was having a discussion with an engine builder today who was not saying very nice things about stroking the LS3 Aluminum Block out to 416. He said (maybe not word for word here) the sleeve length is too short, and part of the piston comes out of the sleeve, which leads to an rocking of the piston causing wear on the sleeve which will lead to premature smoking.
I would be interested to hear other's opinions. Is the 416 a reliable motor?
Thanks!
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:08 PM   #2
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what your builder is talking about is a 4.1" stroke crank on an ls motor. The 416 typically uses a 4.0" stroke crank.

The 4.1" stroke would make it a 427, and in which, he would be correct.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:43 PM   #3
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I've read that eric from HKE worked with wiseco and developed a piston for a 427 -4.1" stroke that works well for the smoking problem but have never heard anything about any problems with a 4" stroke. You'll find much more real world experience on LS1 tech Christian. Or you can ask Charlie
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
what your builder is talking about is a 4.1" stroke crank on an ls motor. The 416 typically uses a 4.0" stroke crank.

The 4.1" stroke would make it a 427, and in which, he would be correct.
This is my understanding as well.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:01 PM   #5
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What do you think of this 416 kit ?

"We can forge your LS3, make it a 416 for $3850 and it will be good for 900+ rwhp. We will drop the compression by using a deep dish piston taking your heads into consideration. This is the least expensive way to get to where you want to go.

We use a Callies C-series crank and Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons and GFX rings, ARP mainstuds, ACL coated race bearings.

honed, line honed, decked, balanced.. ready to go !

We can upgrade the rods and crank to Compstar for a bit more money. The C series crank is a favorite of Erik's to help save some money. The Compstar is the next level up and then the Dragonslayer. We use this combo in a lot of engines to keep costs down."
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:29 PM   #6
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:41 PM   #7
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Most bang for the buck is the 416 in my opinion and anything Erik at HKE builds is reliable and very fast WORD!!!
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:48 PM   #8
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Going by how your engine builder responded - find a new engine builder. The 4.0 stroke on a 416ci is fine if the right pistons are used.
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:00 PM   #9
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He isn't my engine builder, just an engine builder I was talking with. He was trying to see me on an RHS Block, which is as much as Erik wants for the whole bottom end!
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
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He isn't my engine builder, just an engine builder I was talking with. He was trying to see me on an RHS Block, which is as much as Erik wants for the whole bottom end!
you need to be looking to put down some serious power to justify a rhs block.

details?
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:58 AM   #11
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Sounds like he is old school or he has no experience with LSx engine building.
The 416 is as reliable as you want it to be. It comes down to the valve-train and tune. The 427 with the 4.100 stroke is not recommended for a power adder.
Yes he is correct if you chose the wrong piston then you will have issue but there has been correct piston for the LSx engines for a long time now. My builder Erik from HKE designed the correct piston for Wiseco and it has been copied by most although some companies still have issue as they haven't got it completely correct yet.


Ahh I see the Holden now, I was talking to you yesterday. You don't need the RHS block !!
HKE and I work together to bring the very best combinations we can to meet a persons budget. Reliability is number one in our minds. This is why we offer the 416/427 combination. For the money we can make as much power if not more than most s/c systems on the market ( stock engine) and have it be more dependable.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:16 AM   #12
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Yes, we were talking yesterday. A buddy of mine recommended a builder, so I called him. He was trying to upsell into something crazy. SoundS like reliability isn't an issue.
I just have to decide forced induction or NA, for the long term.


Quote:
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Sounds like he is old school or he has no experience with LSx engine building.
The 416 is as reliable as you want it to be. It comes down to the valve-train and tune. The 427 with the 4.100 stroke is not recommended for a power adder.
Yes he is correct if you chose the wrong piston then you will have issue but there has been correct piston for the LSx engines for a long time now. My builder Erik from HKE designed the correct piston for Wiseco and it has been copied by most although some companies still have issue as they haven't got it completely correct yet.


Ahh I see the Holden now, I was talking to you yesterday. You don't need the RHS block !!
HKE and I work together to bring the very best combinations we can to meet a persons budget. Reliability is number one in our minds. This is why we offer the 416/427 combination. For the money we can make as much power if not more than most s/c systems on the market ( stock engine) and have it be more dependable.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:39 AM   #13
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I went forced induction, but if I had it to do over again I would have went NA. I just plain didn't know any better that there would be any issues with the FI route..now I'm saving up for the stroking to 416 ci project...which will likely take years since I'm working on suspension and fuel and other things in the meantime. You can get an NA 416 ci to the same level of performance as the FI bolt on if you add some goodies to reconsructing the long block...ie, nasty cam, heads, headers. The engine will be stronger too. Just be sure about your end goal. You don't want to build an 11 to 1 compression shortblock then later decide that you want a supercharger too.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:26 PM   #14
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Im also saving for a 416 project for my E-Force SC, but dont know if all the hassle is going to be worth it..... since the only cam that I might use is the LS9.

The car is my DD and I want to keep the stock engine sound, maybe to get the full potential of the 416 you need a agressive cam (which I dont want).


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Old 02-02-2011, 12:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
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I went forced induction, but if I had it to do over again I would have went NA. I just plain didn't know any better that there would be any issues with the FI route..now I'm saving up for the stroking to 416 ci project...which will likely take years since I'm working on suspension and fuel and other things in the meantime. You can get an NA 416 ci to the same level of performance as the FI bolt on if you add some goodies to reconsructing the long block...ie, nasty cam, heads, headers. The engine will be stronger too. Just be sure about your end goal. You don't want to build an 11 to 1 compression shortblock then later decide that you want a supercharger too.
Exactly!
The 11:1 vs 9:1 is where I am a little hung up. One builder did suggest 10.3:1 as a good middle ground. Would limit the max boost later to 8-10lbs, and still give really good NA numbers.
10-12 pounds on a built 416 is 700hp+ for sure.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:36 PM   #16
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what all goes into stroking the LS3? does the engine have to come out of the car?
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:46 PM   #17
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Yes, we were talking yesterday. A buddy of mine recommended a builder, so I called him. He was trying to upsell into something crazy. SoundS like reliability isn't an issue.
I just have to decide forced induction or NA, for the long term.
You can't go wrong with an HKE built engine. Erik knows his stuff and builds great engines.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:16 PM   #18
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Exactly!
The 11:1 vs 9:1 is where I am a little hung up. One builder did suggest 10.3:1 as a good middle ground. Would limit the max boost later to 8-10lbs, and still give really good NA numbers.
10-12 pounds on a built 416 is 700hp+ for sure.
I'm going 9.5 to 1 with a Jannetty blower cam, other options would be a livernois 2c cam or the ZR1 cam. Either way, with a 416 ci, SC, blower cam and adequate fuel system you will make plenty of power. I'm actually trying to keep it under 700hp at the crank. The higher you go the more stuff you have to change, already doing a total suspension but if you go higher...rear end, axles, clutch,...

the other poster asked about what stroking involves...it is taking the bottom core block and replacing the internals with forged components and changing the stroke to add more cubic inches.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:47 AM   #19
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You can't go wrong with an HKE built engine. Erik knows his stuff and builds great engines.
Agree, I was involved in my buddys 416 build with Eric and that thing is a beast and a excellent daily driver, He's raced at least 6 forced induction cars and has had no losses. He most definitely will be doing my build soon.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:32 AM   #20
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Anyone have a link or some info for HKE? Just curious. I wouldn't mind getting some info incase I decide I want to go this route one day.
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:22 PM   #21
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Anyone have a link or some info for HKE? Just curious. I wouldn't mind getting some info incase I decide I want to go this route one day.
http://www.******************.com/
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:38 PM   #22
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:16 AM   #23
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The biggest mistake I see alot is running the compression too low. With the old school motors you had to run low compression to fight detination. These LS motors are much more efficient.

For a turbo build you would want a 9-1 compression.
For a roots you want around 10-1
For a centrifical you want 10-1 to 10.8-1 compression

These compression samples are just that. The Cam choice makes a big difference on the static compression choice.

Blowers pretty much raise the compression. When the static compression is higher it takes less blower too fill the combustion chambers. Meaning you don't have to spin the blowers so hard to make the power.

I would definitely go HKE on the engine build. He knows his stuff. There are only 3 engine builders in the country I would trust and he's one of them.
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:47 AM   #24
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What do you think of this 416 kit ?

"We can forge your LS3, make it a 416 for $3850 and it will be good for 900+ rwhp. We will drop the compression by using a deep dish piston taking your heads into consideration. This is the least expensive way to get to where you want to go.

We use a Callies C-series crank and Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons and GFX rings, ARP mainstuds, ACL coated race bearings.

honed, line honed, decked, balanced.. ready to go !

We can upgrade the rods and crank to Compstar for a bit more money. The C series crank is a favorite of Erik's to help save some money. The Compstar is the next level up and then the Dragonslayer. We use this combo in a lot of engines to keep costs down."
You will never get 900 + hp out of the Edelbrock. I am already on the smallest pully available, already stroked and even using E85...just sayin!

You have to have your engine machined/ honed anyway to match to pistons. You might as well do it to 4080 and go for the 418. The 416 is probably only a quick shop hone to 4070 and wont be machined to match steel rings imo.

Personal opinion, for the small cost to upgrade to Callies series I would go for it. Wiseco pistons are nice but I went with CP . ARP2000 bolt upgrade is a good idea as well. ls9 head gasket upgrade suggested. Install LPE or ADM dual fuel pump. Upgrade timing chain and tensioner, Blower Cam and springs with pushrods. This is going to be closer to 10K than 4K imo. Callies rotating assembly, pistons and rings, bearings etc is around 2500 just in parts. Cam kit 1500. Fuel pump 1000. Bolts, gaskets and labor 4K +

Sounds like you got a good build going on though..I like your style.

Good luck man!
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:51 AM   #25
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The biggest mistake I see alot is running the compression too low. With the old school motors you had to run low compression to fight detination. These LS motors are much more efficient.

For a turbo build you would want a 9-1 compression.
For a roots you want around 10-1
For a centrifical you want 10-1 to 10.8-1 compression

These compression samples are just that. The Cam choice makes a big difference on the static compression choice.

Blowers pretty much raise the compression. When the static compression is higher it takes less blower too fill the combustion chambers. Meaning you don't have to spin the blowers so hard to make the power.

I would definitely go HKE on the engine build. He knows his stuff. There are only 3 engine builders in the country I would trust and he's one of them.
Very good advice and right on target. I am at 10.02 to 1 compression. Dont rush and just take whatever pistons are available. Get exactly what you want to build. 4080 with a -13.8 dish for mine!

I love how so many folks are finally catching on to a proper ls3 blown build. Wish it was like this when I started....I would have saved so much money and time trying to learn.
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