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Old 02-04-2011, 04:28 PM   #1
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11.5 second electric street car

Check out this video. This little battery car is bad.
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/segments/view/1686
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:15 PM   #2
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WOW thats fast
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:17 PM   #3
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WOW thats fast
More like quick and not so fast.

Very impressive and I would trade my Monte Carlo for one in a heartbeat but you would think it would of picked up some major mph from the mod's. Electrics would have my full respect if they could back up there super quick ET's with some high mph. This Datsun would get murdered on a highway roll race, I wish there was a way for it to kick ass on the top end as well.
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:36 PM   #4
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Whats the record at for a street legal car with an internal combustion engine, 8 seconds?
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:06 AM   #5
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The thing about electric cars is that they get all of their torque at zero RPM. However, the fastest production car I've seen one claim to go is about 125 mph which I believe was made by Tesla Motors. I could be wrong about the top speed though.

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Old 02-05-2011, 02:49 AM   #6
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It's still just a 1972 Datsun that can go one 1/4 mile on a charge... I'll pass.
Good job though.
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Old 02-05-2011, 02:55 AM   #7
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The thing about electric cars is that they get all of their torque at zero RPM. However, the fastest production car I've seen one claim to go is about 125 mph which I believe was made by Tesla Motors. I could be wrong about the top speed though.

I can't resist, I'm sorry. I see people saying this all the time now. They get all of their torque @ > 0 rpm. Torque at 0 rpm is impossible as it is a rotational force. . . just for future reference.
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Old 02-05-2011, 03:36 AM   #8
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I can't resist, I'm sorry. They get all of their torque @ > 0 rpm. Torque at 0 rpm is impossible as it is a rotational force. . . just for future reference.
Torque is force at a distance. This force at a distance, when applied to something that can rotate will cause that object to rotate. In other words, the rotational is a product of torque, not a requirement.

Get some small electrically powered item, like toy or one of those mini electric fans. Please don't use any sort of power tool. Hold the wheel (or whatever is supposed to rotate) and turn it on. You're going to feel it try and move while you hold it stationary. Torque at 0 rpm from an electric motor.

It is even possible for an internal combustion engine to generate torque at 0 rpm. Consider a spark ignition, gasoline direct injection engine, with no starter motor and is sitting at rest. One of the cylinders is near the top of its compression stroke. Fuel is sprayed in and while its still atomized within the combustion chamber, the spark ignites it. This causes the pressure within the cylinder to skyrocket. But nothing moves, because the car is in gear and the inertia of the entire drivetrain and the static friction is enough to prevent it from moving. But, slip it into neutral and all of a sudden, the engine comes to life. For the entire time between when the fuel-air mix ignited until the engine ran, there was both torque and no movement, in a reciprocating piston engine.

And no, I didn't pull that scenario out of my imagination (well, not entirely). But automakers are working that as an application for the next generation of direct injection engines, starting without a starter motor.
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Old 02-05-2011, 04:11 PM   #9
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Hmm, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't torque = (force vector)x(displacement vector)? If there is no movement at the point at which force is applied, that means all of the force vectors have cancelled out to zero and torque can not exist. Am I wrong?
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:07 PM   #10
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Hmm, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't torque = (force vector)x(displacement vector)? If there is no movement at the point at which force is applied, that means all of the force vectors have cancelled out to zero and torque can not exist. Am I wrong?
The displacement vector is from the axis about which the force is being applied to the point which the force is being applied. Nothing requires that it actually rotates about the axis. Merely that it is drawn from that axis to the applied force. The forces can balance out, and nothing will move. But that does not mean there is no torque, just no movement.

In fact, 'static torque' is far more common in the world than 'dynamic torque' is. Usually, its refered to as a moment (particularly in structural engineering circles) but it is identical in concept to torque. Whether its a beam supporting a load, or a guy trying to get a stuck lug nut off a wheel. Nothing is moving, but there are certainly forces applied at a distance, about an axis.

You may be thinking of work or power. They require movement, but torque does not.
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:50 PM   #11
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The displacement vector is from the axis about which the force is being applied to the point which the force is being applied. Nothing requires that it actually rotates about the axis. Merely that it is drawn from that axis to the applied force. The forces can balance out, and nothing will move. But that does not mean there is no torque, just no movement.

In fact, 'static torque' is far more common in the world than 'dynamic torque' is. Usually, its refered to as a moment (particularly in structural engineering circles) but it is identical in concept to torque. Whether its a beam supporting a load, or a guy trying to get a stuck lug nut off a wheel. Nothing is moving, but there are certainly forces applied at a distance, about an axis.

You may be thinking of work or power. They require movement, but torque does not.
You are misunderstanding my point. The displacement vector isn't my concern, the force vector is. If there is no movement, any force vector must be cancelled out by another of equal magnitude in the opposite direction. If that's the case than the value of the total force vector is zero and if torque is the product of the force vector and displacement vector, then torque must be equal to zero. Maybe I'm just getting too caught up on the technicalities of the terminology. . .
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:21 PM   #12
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You are misunderstanding my point. The displacement vector isn't my concern, the force vector is. If there is no movement, any force vector must be cancelled out by another of equal magnitude in the opposite direction. If that's the case than the value of the total force vector is zero and if torque is the product of the force vector and displacement vector, then torque must be equal to zero. Maybe I'm just getting too caught up on the technicalities of the terminology. . .
There can be an equal and opposite force that makes the net force equal to 0, thus preventing any acceleration. But that doesn't mean each force no longer exists. They simply exist in balance. It only ceases to exist theoretically after doing the vector addition. But both the applied force, and the reaction force are still there.

As a practical example, if you hold a weight out at arms length you feel gravity pulling it down. Consider that the applied force to your arm. To hold it still, you must exert a force to counter gravity, a reaction force. With what you seem to be proposing is that since the thing you're holding is not moving, it must therefore be weightless, which is absurd and untrue. Force exists without movement, and continues to exist despite equal opposition.
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:19 AM   #13
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Hi Scruffage,
Thanks for the URL... This is really excellent cars having good pickup as well as it give good performance..
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:44 AM   #14
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Having spent 4 years of my life learning about electricity in engineering school, one of the tortures of graduation was learning everything that you never wanted to know about electric motors. Suffice it to say that you can wind an electric motor in a fashion to blow away just about any fossil fuel motor in existance today in the 1/4 mile. If you created a car with a battery, a power control system and a motor on each wheel, and the right combination of know how, you would be pushing 300 MPH in the 1/4. The car would be very very light in comparison to any other car since you would have no drivetrain other than cables and a battery only big enough to go 1/4 mile.

Is that a practical every day car? No way! But, don't underestimate electric motors for performance. You can do amazing things with them, as the industrial world already knows.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:55 AM   #15
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^ What if it didn't have to rely on stored energy like a battery but something like overhead power like a street car or bumper car or 1/2 mile extension cord. Just an idea for quickest ET
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:04 AM   #16
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More like quick and not so fast.

Very impressive and I would trade my Monte Carlo for one in a heartbeat but you would think it would of picked up some major mph from the mod's. Electrics would have my full respect if they could back up there super quick ET's with some high mph. This Datsun would get murdered on a highway roll race, I wish there was a way for it to kick ass on the top end as well.
good thing there aren't any tracks that do "highway roll race's", otherwise I could see it being an issue.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:42 AM   #17
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Having spent 4 years of my life learning about electricity in engineering school, one of the tortures of graduation was learning everything that you never wanted to know about electric motors. Suffice it to say that you can wind an electric motor in a fashion to blow away just about any fossil fuel motor in existance today in the 1/4 mile. If you created a car with a battery, a power control system and a motor on each wheel, and the right combination of know how, you would be pushing 300 MPH in the 1/4. The car would be very very light in comparison to any other car since you would have no drivetrain other than cables and a battery only big enough to go 1/4 mile.

Is that a practical every day car? No way! But, don't underestimate electric motors for performance. You can do amazing things with them, as the industrial world already knows.
That would require several thousand kilowatts, for a span of a few seconds. That still works out to a few kilowatt hours of battery, which would would probably weigh 100-200 lbs, give or take. For an internal combustion drag car, the fuel cell only weighs a few pounds.

Then there is the electric motor itself. I don't know of any electric motors that pump out thousands of horsepower that are particularly light weight, though I'm sure some of that is because most such engines are industrial units and don't have a reason to be light. Never the less, the power to weight ratio for electric doesn't scale up all that well, at least in comparison to combustion engines. A 5000 hp internal combustion race engine doesn't really weigh that much more than a 500 hp engine. And since it has to haul around all those batteries, the electric motor would have to weigh substantially less than the ICE, and to do so it would have to have a power to weigh ratio on the order of 10 hp/lb. To my knowledge, they're not even halfway there yet.

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^ What if it didn't have to rely on stored energy like a battery but something like overhead power like a street car or bumper car or 1/2 mile extension cord. Just an idea for quickest ET
That would help, but there is more of a problem with the motors than the battery for such a short race.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:41 AM   #18
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DG I know you have told us before but I know you have to be an engineer......since your from Canada I can possibly rule out NASA but not 100%
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:08 PM   #19
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DG I know you have told us before but I know you have to be an engineer......since your from Canada I can possibly rule out NASA but not 100%
Funny you should mention that, aerospace is the reason I wanted to get into engineering in the first place. Plenty of Canadians have worked for NASA. I won't be one of them, I just can't bring myself to leave Canada. But we do have the CSA ...
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:53 AM   #20
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There can be an equal and opposite force that makes the net force equal to 0, thus preventing any acceleration. But that doesn't mean each force no longer exists. They simply exist in balance. It only ceases to exist theoretically after doing the vector addition. But both the applied force, and the reaction force are still there.

As a practical example, if you hold a weight out at arms length you feel gravity pulling it down. Consider that the applied force to your arm. To hold it still, you must exert a force to counter gravity, a reaction force. With what you seem to be proposing is that since the thing you're holding is not moving, it must therefore be weightless, which is absurd and untrue. Force exists without movement, and continues to exist despite equal opposition.
I understand why there is a torque based on simply analyzing the forces and the basic concept of torque, but in practice I can't think of a possible scenario where maximum torque output would not result in movement (unless an outside force is acting on the motor). I just don't understand how such a contradictory concept can exist. Most importantly, I know the relation between torque and angular accel, when referring to rotation, can be expressed as T=(mass moment intertia)(angular acceleration), so there is a direct relation between angular acceleration and total torque, so if angular acceleration is zero, so must be torque. . . Am I missing something here. . .? I can think of multiple examples of functions with domains (0,infinity), not [0,infinity) when torque is set to >0, that incorporate both torque and acceleration. I just don't understand how this is possible, unless it's situational and peak torque is only made at 0 rpm when there is an external load greater than the maximum torque output of the motor. . . which I guess makes sense.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand why this is possible. I'm a physics student, so this kind of stuff drives me insane.

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Old 02-11-2011, 08:30 PM   #21
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I understand why there is a torque based on simply analyzing the forces and the basic concept of torque, but in practice I can't think of a possible scenario where maximum torque output would not result in movement (unless an outside force is acting on the motor). I just don't understand how such a contradictory concept can exist. Most importantly, I know the relation between torque and angular accel, when referring to rotation, can be expressed as T=(mass moment intertia)(angular acceleration), so there is a direct relation between angular acceleration and total torque, so if angular acceleration is zero, so must be torque. . . Am I missing something here. . .? I can think of multiple examples of functions with domains (0,infinity), not [0,infinity) when torque is set to >0, that incorporate both torque and acceleration. I just don't understand how this is possible, unless it's situational and peak torque is only made at 0 rpm when there is an external load greater than the maximum torque output of the motor. . . which I guess makes sense.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand why this is possible. I'm a physics student, so this kind of stuff drives me insane.
You're going to make me find my Electro Mechanical Energy Conversions textbook, aren't you? Alright ... wait for an edit on this post ...
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:10 PM   #22
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good thing there aren't any tracks that do "highway roll race's", otherwise I could see it being an issue.
Texas mile.

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Old 02-12-2011, 01:30 AM   #23
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Texas mile.

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Texas Mile is a track where you race just as in a 1/4 mi track. It says nothing about "roll races".

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Old 02-12-2011, 09:53 AM   #24
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Texas Mile is a track where you race just as in a 1/4 mi track. It says nothing about "roll races".

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