Richmond Gear Camaro gears

[RichmondGear]

2010 Camaro Failures:
I am not going to get into a debate on this or any other forum but I felt the need to correct some of the misinformation that is being spread here. So here are some facts.

Richmond Gear has been producing street gears for the 2010 Camaro since December of 2009. These gears are designed for street use and are not drag race gears. Dedicated drag race gears are made from a different type steel (much more expensive). They are heat treated differently and are not suitable for street use. Drag race gears are softer and the steel provides a softer core so that when launched the gear will flex rather than break. As with all things in physics, there is no free lunch. Designs suitable for the drag strip do live on the street.

In many gears we offer both street and "pro" gears. As an example, in a Ford 9" we offer both street and "pro" gears. The "pro" gears are designed for drag race use only. We do not offer a drag race gear for the 2010 Camaro. Most of the Camaros are daily drivers so it would not make sense to limit use to the strip only.

• Made in USA:
  
  • All Richmond 2010 Camaro gears were made right here in Liberty, SC USA.
• Using American Steel:
  • All of the steel was purchased from US suppliers. None of the steel was purchased from China.
• Box color:
  • Many years ago the street gears were shipped in a white box with blue graphics and pro gears were shipped in a blue box with white graphics. Today all Richmond double diamond gears are shipped in a black box with yellow, white and blue graphics. The Richmond EXCel brand of gears (our value gear) are shipped in a blue box with yellow "EXCel" graphic.
    
  • We only offer the Camaro gear in the Richmond Double Diamond brand street gear and it is sold in a black box. It has never been sold in any other box by us.
• Oil Level:
  • Prior to seeing any failures we speculated that the oil might be too low. After reviewing the first failure it was clear there are no signs of heat in the gear. No service bulletin was ever issued. None of the returns have shown any sign of heat.
    
  • The oil level specified by GM is what should be used.
• Failure mode
  • Failure mode is a catastrophic failure of the ring and pinion set.
    
  • To date most (not all but most) of the failures have been on the drag strip at time of failure. One or two have failed on the street but only after they were run on the drag strip.
    
  • More than 90% of the failures are in cars with manual transmissions.
    
  • All of the gears were reported as being silent when installed. Several were noted to have been noisy just prior to failure. This means something changed. As noted below one of the failed units had shims that were destroyed due to an install error.
• Gear Failures
  • Since inception only eleven (11) have been reported and returned to us as having failed. Of those eleven only one (1) had a metallurgical issue.
    
  • One pinion had improper heat treat which is clearly our fault. (This was not Jason’s gear)
    
  • One failed gear returned to us had the pinion stem polished undersize to the point the head bearing spun destroying the pinion shims. Once the shims were destroyed it lost preload and allowed the pinion to run out of position. This is not a gear failure but an installation error.
    
  • One failed gear set had carrier shims installed under the head bearing. These shims were so large they interfered with the ring gear. Gear problem? I thing not.
    
  • The other eight had no metallurgical issues. They were in specification for all parameters.
    
  • Specifications for material and heat treat are identical to the GM 8.5 inch 10 bolt. These have survived for many runs in similar applications.

This gear set is for all practical purposes a 8.5 inch rear in an aluminum housing. It cannot take unlimited horsepower. The gear set is not designed for drag racing. From a design standpoint this gear is very similar in design, size and tooth geometry to the Chrysler H215 used in the 2008/2009 Challenger and Charger. The main difference is the cast iron housing on the Chrysler vs. the aluminum housing on the Camaro. We have had no similar failures on the Chrysler sets.

While there is no definitive proof, we suspect the housing is flexing when the car is launched and this allows the gears to be run out of position. This in turn, puts excess loads on a small area of the gear teeth and they crack. The cracking may result in immediate failure, it may fail driving home from the track or it may fail sometime later.

The first Camaro diffs came with a steel strap across the carrier caps. We assume this was done for strength. They have since stopped adding the strap. Jannetty Racing is offering billet steel caps. This will add some rigidity to the housing. He has reported running over 700hp at the strip with no failures.

It has also been reported to us that the GM repair manual calls for a case spreader to be used when assembling the carrier into the housing. This would allow for the proper amount of shim to be more easily installed. It would also put some stress into the case that could counteract the stresses induced during loading of the gear set. How many installers even have a case spreader let alone used one? It is critical that the installer knows how to install these gears and it is clear that not all do.

At some point all gears will fail. No gear has unlimited life. This car/differential was never designed for the drag strip. Part of racing is finding the weak link. That is why top fuel drag racers now use 12 inch rear ends when just a few short years ago they were running 9.5 inch gears.

In conclusion, there is no design, steel or metallurgical problem with the Richmond Camaro gears. Richmond Gear stands behind our gears. I chose to warranty the first failures for two reasons, first I didn’t want the people on the leading edge of technology to get burned just because they were first to try something and secondly because I wanted to make sure we were not missing something in the design. I am convinced we did not miss anything. The 4.10 design was chosen to be a quite street gear and it is performing well in many cars.

We have decided to offer a stronger design in the 4.11 ratio. The tooth geometry is stronger and we chose to use a premium material. These gears are still heat treated for the street and not the drag strip. These gears do cost more but they are stronger. All gears will fail as some point. If you put enough horsepower to them and can get the traction you can break anything.

If there is enough demand for a "drag only" gear we can make them. That would not be a problem but they will not live on the street.

Much of the information about these gears on this and other forums is just plain wrong. Even some forum members with the facts have misstated them. Again, I don’t intend to debate this here or anywhere else but I did want to get the facts out there.

Thanks for using Richmond.

[pbm457]

Thank you for your post.

[NickJRE]

Nice post. This should clear up somethings!

[NickJRE]

Originally Posted by blazzin1

Thank You, I think many people have been waiting for some sort of explanation from Richmond of what's been going on. Hopefully, we can put all the rumors behind us now, and press on! What's the part number and price on the new (stronger) 4.11's? Any plans to make the 4.33's in the stronger material too??? Please!!!

Part number is the same.

[danhr]

Way to shed some light on the situation!

[IROCanSS]

Guys,

That was a stand up company's post right there!!!! EVERYTHING you claim makes sense and is much more clear to us that wondered WTF happened!

I can say, without hesitation, the 4.10 gears were my favorite mod I had done to my car. I am NOT a race car driver. I am sure my lack of experience could have contributed to my failure along with the reasons stated here.

Thank you for officially coming out and making a statement as to why we were seeing failures,at the track and off.

~Jason

[danhr]

Originally Posted by NickJRE

Part number is the same.

Incorrect.

According to this thread http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...highlight=4.11 and what Richmond just said, there is no "improved" 4.10 design. It was never flawed to begin with.

The improved and stronger 4.11 design IS a different part number (89-0003-1). It can easily be identified by it (the 4.11's) having 37 ring gear teeth, and 9 pinion teeth, as opposed to the 4.10 design, which has 41 ring gear teeth and 10 pinion teeth.

[NickJRE]

Originally Posted by danhr

Incorrect.

According to this thread http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...highlight=4.11 and what Richmond just said, there is no "improved" 4.10 design. It was never flawed to begin with.

The improved and stronger 4.11 design IS a different part number (89-0003-1). It can easily be identified by it (the 4.11's) having 37 ring gear teeth, and 9 pinion teeth, as opposed to the 4.10 design, which has 41 ring gear teeth and 10 pinion teeth.

Stand corrected.

We had a set direct from Richmond early on and it didn't have the new part number.

[95droptopZ]

Great info! Nice to see an answer to all the rumors and speculation. Thanks RichmondGear

[BlaSSt Off]

So if we install the 4.10, we shouldnt go to the strip? What if you launch it on the street? Whats the point in changing the gear if you cant realy use it? Is it just to say you have it? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything but im just wondering cause I planned to install the 4.10s and I go to the track about twice a month.

[Heliwrench]

While I really appreciate finally hearing everything from the company themselves... in the end I've concluded that they are expensive and will break eventually.

A 9" Sounds more appealing each day.

don't take this as an insult to your product... more of an insult to the overall design in a performance car

[RAYSRT8]

I sent a PM with a question about the 4:10 gears.

Thanks in advance for your time.

[Apex Chase]

Good to finally see it all laid out there.

[SGOS252382]

Richond gears for the 2010 Camaro are not made for drag racing.

Aftermarket gears not made for drag racing are like hamburgers not made for eating.

[Merc]

[QUOTE=Heliwrench;2817190]While I really appreciate finally hearing everything from the company themselves... in the end I've concluded that they are expensive and will break eventually.

A 9" Sounds more appealing each day.

don't take this as an insult to your product... more of an insult to the overall design in a performance car[/QUOT

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH. 9 inch you say.

[Irnwkrkev]

I've been one to criticize richmond for stating the gears are "street" gears but after reading the post I realize they have always had "pro" gears for the strip that are known to be a softer material and not rated for street use. Look up 9" gears and you will see the same offerings. The big difference is that most solid axles aren't known to have ring and pinion failures. Then again most solid axle cars using "street" gears at the strip probably don't weigh 4,000lbs and make what a supercharged or nitroused LS3 makes for hp and torque. Hopefully these improved gears will withstand more abuse. I wonder who uses the "spreader" during installs?

EDIT: Maybe it is just a crappy housing being that the porky challengers aren't breaking diffs..... then again they don't make the power the LS3 does

[Capthowdy]

the housing is def flexing thats why JRE has a billet cap mod....and set up of these are very important to them lasting...only have a REAL driveline pro install these and set them up properly..

[RAYSRT8]

I have ordered a rear-end swap from Jannetty with 4:10 gears and I will let you know soon how they hold up.

[OrangeChevyII]

I'm gonna have to tell you your gears are already over priced for these cars, most of the failures I have seen are from normal driving habitts and have problems on the simplest cars.

If American gear can make a stock gear for GM hold up to 1400 RWHP and not break and the car have over 250 passes your over priced gears should be able to do the same.

You also forgot to mention that you have changed the installation directions for the set backlash from 40 thousands to 15 thousands in the later released gears for the Ls3 cars.

Yes I have bought the gears and yes they broke. Yes it was on a stock car and yes you replaced them. I called you out on the installation changes and yes your tech guy explained why they changed it.

No I dont recomend anyone to use your gears.

[Heliwrench]

Originally Posted by mercuryman96

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH. 9 inch you say.

[RichmondGear]

Just to set the record straight, backlash specification has never changed it is .008 to .010 inches. This has always been the setting and it holds true for all of our gears. We only recommend using a professional installer, no ring and pinion installation is simple.

For you guys considering the change to a Ford 9 inch housing be aware you will lose about 3% in efficiency due to the change in hypoid offset. If you are producing 400 hp this means a loss of 12 hp. On the flip side the 9 inch housing and gear set is stronger. This is just the physics of making gears. There is no free lunch.

Richmond Gear

[ProudLS]

How about street race? what's the maximum HP that these street gears can handle?
I am about to install my gears and ordering a super charge but now I have to think again.

Thanks,

[OrangeChevyII]

I just pulled that out of my hat right? What ever you say your going to try and redeem your product, doesn't matter. Just know I think they're junk.

[RAYSRT8]

Originally Posted by Ray2SS

I sent a PM with a question about the 4:10 gears.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Guess they do not care that I sent a PM because they never got back with me..

[RAYSRT8]

Originally Posted by Ray2SS

I sent a PM with a question about the 4:10 gears.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Guess they do not care that I sent a PM since they have not responded...