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Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics Camaro ZL1 specific topics

View Poll Results: Do you want to see an automatic option for the ZL1?
Yes 1,312 66.30%
No 667 33.70%
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:12 PM   #251
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No confusion. Bottom line is that in five years you'll be hard pressed to find a car maker that offers a manual. Once Porsche adopts their direct injection engines in the entire 911 line, even they will drop the manuals. Only a matter of time. IMO.
I think your overestimating the world wide adaptation of the automatic. In 5 years, manuals will probably be illegal in the US because that's where a majority of stupid automotive standards come from. However, because automatics are more expensive and thought of as an unnecessary cost, the rest of the world will continue to use manuals... It is believed in Europe that we American's cannot drive very good... This is one of the reasons why..

Porsche is a product of Europe, it will always have a manual transmission. It may use an SMG but will never be only offered as just an auto...

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Old 02-25-2011, 06:25 PM   #252
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Most of the exotic sports cars including F1 and other road racing circuits use a SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox), it is NOT an automatic. It is a paddle shift with an electric clutch and has no automatic feature.

A Dual Clutch Semi-Automatic replaces the torque converter with a double clutch assembly and is also paddle shifted. Some Porsche's use this but the same Porsche manual was shown to be faster.

Then you have a regular automatic that has a paddle shift (CTS-V) which everyone thinks it is the exact same thing as what I listed above....

Automatic's are garbage on a road course, they have always been and they will always be....
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:06 PM   #253
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Most of the exotic sports cars including F1 and other road racing circuits use a SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox), it is NOT an automatic. It is a paddle shift with an electric clutch and has no automatic feature.

A Dual Clutch Semi-Automatic replaces the torque converter with a double clutch assembly and is also paddle shifted. Some Porsche's use this but the same Porsche manual was shown to be faster.

Then you have a regular automatic that has a paddle shift (CTS-V) which everyone thinks it is the exact same thing as what I listed above....

Automatic's are garbage on a road course, they have always been and they will always be....
Cadillac CTS-V with a conventional automatic has lapped the 'ring in under 8 minutes. Faster than M3 and M5 with manual shift or DCT. BTW, I think most of the people here are aware of the differences between and auto and newer dual-clutch design. And every Porsche that is offered with PDK is faster with that option compared to a manual.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:59 PM   #254
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Cadillac CTS-V with a conventional automatic has lapped the 'ring in under 8 minutes. Faster than M3 and M5 with manual shift or DCT. BTW, I think most of the people here are aware of the differences between and auto and newer dual-clutch design. And every Porsche that is offered with PDK is faster with that option compared to a manual.
It's amazing what drivers like Horst Von Surma can do at Nurburgring, Now take that CTS-V to a US track like Laguna Seca and it runs even with a GT500, which both of them are 2 seconds behind the M3.

You would be surprised how many people do not know the difference between transmissions, they see paddles... that's all... And since you mentioned an "F word" F430 and I quote
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In the last year that the (Name removed) F430 was produced, less than 1% were manual shifts.
I hope you are not referring to the F1 SMG that they use because the only other option is a stick shift. Most people would mistake the F1 SMG for an automatic, but it is a paddle shift manual...

I'm afraid the auto Cayman is not faster than the SMG, it is slightly faster to 60mph than the regular manual but it is not faster around a track. Being that it is a $4000 dollar option, it better do something better. Since the shift times are 100ms in an SMG vs. 250-400ms in a DCA, I would say that the manual would end up being much faster.

I'm not into paying 4k to be slower at the track, no thanks... you can keep your automatics.. I will take a DCT or an SMG though..

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Old 02-25-2011, 08:17 PM   #255
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Here, Google:
(F word) F430 6-speed 'F1' electrohydraulic manual

"F word" with an automatic


Edit: I spelled out the F word...
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:32 PM   #256
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:55 PM   #257
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If production of the ZL1 are limited then an automatic wouldn't be logically marketable and serious profit wouldn't be returned. If NO automatic is offered, I would still bet that every ZL1 will sell. If the 6L90 is an option, the sales would more likely be split 60/40 but it would increase initial production cost. The first year a new model is offered is the most critical and will determines the success of the ZL1. If 7000 ZL1's move out the door within months after release then it indicates that there is possibly a demand for more units and possibly an automatic. In my opinion, GM could sell ZL1's until 2015 with no automatic available and noboby, especially not the buyers would care. Automatics are great for drag racing but unless they are paddle shifted, they are useless for road racing. Adding an auto w/ paddle shift adds additional cost, not to just the consumer but initial production cost as well.

I know having an option to upgrade is good, mainly for those buyers that absolutely need an automatic, but the market they contend in does not require one. GM will aim to outproduce the GT500 maybe as much as 2:1, because the first year demand may see the ZL1 sell close to 10,000. If GM does put in the extra money to offer the 6L90, even outselling the GT500 unit per unit will not give them a profit margin victory. It is a huge marketing risk to play all your cards in the first hand and this being the first year of production, the margin of error is zero. If GM does stay on par with the GT500 in production then it is definitely a poor decision to add additional hardware to the catalog. Having the 6L90 and the 6060 MG9 would double the cost and risk involved throughout developement and during production. GM knows better than anybody that over-production results in a smaller profit because they seen it first hand in 2010, so 10k ZL1's might be risky. They are also aware that offering all they have now leaves little or no room for exciting new releases, as they have used the convertible/ZL1 to do, so offering the 6L90 might be a bad idea.

If you are not concerned about cost to the consumer, you can always purchase the Hydramatic 6L90 from GM Performance Parts and have it installed.

The ratio of automatic to manual in sport cars is 19 to 1! From Road and Track magazine back a few years. So, you can argue till you cannot find anything else to say but for every one who buys a manual; 19 buy an automatic! I think most potential ZL1 buyers would prefer an automatic. They will not use it on the track; but drive it as their daily vehicles. There is no advantges that the manual offers over an automatic anymore. With today's computerized engines; automatics are faster and more fun to drive. Back 10 years ago or earlier; it was the manual that was maybe half a second faster a lap but now; the computerized automatic is much faster.

Drive a stick in stop and go traffic and on steep road/streets is quite the task. All police cars are automatic as well as all emergency vehicles. I am willing to gamble that their would be more demand for an automatic then a manual for the ZL1!

We will see how it plays out! I pulling for the automatic!
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Old 02-27-2011, 09:31 AM   #258
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The ratio of automatic to manual in sport cars is 19 to 1! From Road and Track magazine back a few years. So, you can argue till you cannot find anything else to say but for every one who buys a manual; 19 buy an automatic! I think most potential ZL1 buyers would prefer an automatic.

.....
Uh.....no.

7.7% (1 in 12) of all cars sold in the US last year were manual. That includes ALL cars... pickups, SUVs, Minivans, Toyotas, and all other cars that would never even have a manual as an option.

In the sports car realm, the percentage must be higher than your claimed 1 in 19, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, and just for reference, in Europe, manual transmissions outnumber autos by 5 to 1. And of course, they don't have too many Pickups, SUVs and Minivans, but they do have sports cars. They actually like to drive, not just park and polish.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:18 AM   #259
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Uh.....no.

7.7% (1 in 12) of all cars sold in the US last year were manual. That includes ALL cars... pickups, SUVs, Minivans, Toyotas, and all other cars that would never even have a manual as an option.

In the sports car realm, the percentage must be higher than your claimed 1 in 19, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, and just for reference, in Europe, manual transmissions outnumber autos by 5 to 1. And of course, they don't have too many Pickups, SUVs and Minivans, but they do have sports cars. They actually like to drive, not just park and polish.
just to add on most cars in the middle east and asia are manual. ive seen some cars that if they had auto's on them the tranny would have been shot long ago. in my opinion a manual is just more reliable, and will last alot longer. plus its more fun to drive.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:17 PM   #260
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I think if we were talking about the ZR1 Corvette, the no automatic argument would have merit. But really, the Camaro is not a sports car. It's a pony or muscle car that's better suited at the drag strip than a road course. Really, how many ZL1's are going to see any track time?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:27 PM   #261
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Uh.....no.

7.7% (1 in 12) of all cars sold in the US last year were manual. That includes ALL cars... pickups, SUVs, Minivans, Toyotas, and all other cars that would never even have a manual as an option.

In the sports car realm, the percentage must be higher than your claimed 1 in 19, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, and just for reference, in Europe, manual transmissions outnumber autos by 5 to 1. And of course, they don't have too many Pickups, SUVs and Minivans, but they do have sports cars. They actually like to drive, not just park and polish.
Not really understanding the hollier than thou European attitude. This is America. I could care less what they do in Europe. But I do remember laughing my ass off back in my high school days, when me with four friends in my automatic Buick Grand National handily outran a kid driving his dads Porsche 911 Turbo through the 1/4 mile. That's what the ZL1 is all about to me. Dusting high dollar sports cars.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:52 PM   #262
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just to add on most cars in the middle east and asia are manual. ive seen some cars that if they had auto's on them the tranny would have been shot long ago. in my opinion a manual is just more reliable, and will last alot longer. plus its more fun to drive.
The durability is really no longer a factor between to two. All GM automatics are validated for the lifetime of the vehicle...compare that to a worn clutch after several tens of thousands of miles.

Still...the fun-factor is there. And it's purely an opinion thing. I know a few people who love the jet-engine, constant-acceleration feeling of an high power automatic car.

But I thought this conversation was about market demand for the option? The argument over which is "better" cannot be won, and doesn't really help the community represent whether or not there's a demand for an automatic transmission option.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:13 PM   #263
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The durability is really no longer a factor between to two. All GM automatics are validated for the lifetime of the vehicle...compare that to a worn clutch after several tens of thousands of miles.

Still...the fun-factor is there. And it's purely an opinion thing. I know a few people who love the jet-engine, constant-acceleration feeling of an high power automatic car.

But I thought this conversation was about market demand for the option? The argument over which is "better" cannot be won, and doesn't really help the community represent whether or not there's a demand for an automatic transmission option.

Thanks for the reminder, this is getting a bit off track. It would also be great if only the people that could actually afford one and want to buy one would vote, but that is impossible :(
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:17 PM   #264
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I still believe that GM will sell every single ZL1 without an automatic option, It might not be quicker in the 1/4 but it will be more effective on a road course. A manual will also help with the gas guzzler tax and bring the tax down to $1300.

For every ZL1 sold, 19 unhappy people will go back to the minivan life... I'm happy that there are other countries that still love to drive, not holding them to a higher standard, but they truly love automobiles enough to say no to certain auto trends. Its only a matter of time before some Senator thinks that a stick shift is dangerous and mandates automatics to be mandatory.. after he invest in the Hydramatic/Livonia stock of course... Auto's are great for drag racing and high traffic city life, I'm just not sure the ZL1 will need one right off the bat... H pattern Manuals are very good deep into the 9's and are required by NHRA after that. You may be right, H pattern manuals will go the way of a solid rear axle.. Not intended for everyday life and limited to off road use only...

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Old 02-27-2011, 02:24 PM   #265
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If you are in the income range of affording this car, a $1300 gas guzzler tax isn't going to put you into the 'not buying it' category.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:30 PM   #266
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If you are in the income range of affording this car, a $1300 gas guzzler tax isn't going to put you into the 'not buying it' category.
I agree, but it does help the ZL1 to remain competitive to the GT500. If you add the price of the automatic, which I think the 6L90 is only $1300 over the 6060, then the GG tax is $2600 for the 6L90 equipped CTS-V... It starts to tarnish the competitive edge. GM offers a manual at an affordable price and can offer a GMPP package like the GT500's SVT pack...
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:35 PM   #267
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That's a good point, but I go by the theory that there will always be a competitive edge between the two because they are a Camaro and a Mustang. Some guys will buy a Chevy only, and that is going to be the majority of ZL-1 owners, I think.

I could very possibly be WAY off base there.

Or maybe Chevy would ATTRACT buyers from the Ford camp that wanted/needed (injuries, don't like manuals etc) an auto GT500 but can't get one.

These are all just thoughts I have, in no way am I saying I am right.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:36 PM   #268
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Thanks for the reminder, this is getting a bit off track. It would also be great if only the people that could actually afford one and want to buy one would vote, but that is impossible :(
Of course that is an issue with a lower-production car like this one...when asking for opinions on a subject, most of the responses will be from people who have no intention of buying one for one reason or another.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:00 PM   #269
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I do like the idea of gauging interest in the automatic option from folks actively working towards owning a ZL1. I have already traded my SS in for a car with a much lower monthly payment, better mpg, etc in order to save up. However, I will most likely not buy until the the 2013 ZL1's are out. If there isn't an auto option in 2012, it sounds as though there will be a better chance of it the following year. Is this an accurate assumption? But regardless of the transmission, I will own this beast!
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:24 PM   #270
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I do like the idea of gauging interest in the automatic option from folks actively working towards owning a ZL1. I have already traded my SS in for a car with a much lower monthly payment, better mpg, etc in order to save up. However, I will most likely not buy until the the 2013 ZL1's are out. If there isn't an auto option in 2012, it sounds as though there will be a better chance of it the following year. Is this an accurate assumption? But regardless of the transmission, I will own this beast!
If I were a product manager (I am not but Number 3 said he is going to hire me), I would let the product get a little wet first before I throw out all the stops. This is a new market for GM, Camaro or not, it is a different market. In my opinion, the 6L90 is a better transmission but it has some downfalls. If I were product manager, after a year plus of testing, I would have a pretty good idea that the 6060 equipped ZL1 could best the current GT500. If I wanted to lose my job at GM, I would play every card even after I knew that my base 6060 LSA could beat the GT500. Not only would I pour more funding into initial R&D and production, I would just be putting far too many nails into a coffin that Ford themselves are burying anyway. Ford is clever, but GM has to be even smarter and this is not the year (first year) to nail them. Acknowledge the competition, Bring the product to market and wait for Ford to show you something.. Remember, why put big money into a ZL1, when Ford's 200lbs weight loss is coming in 2013.. You don't want to put alot of R&D into a program just to have a 3400lb 5.0 GT walk all over you...

Were they late to the market? Yeah..... But they need to make intelligent decisions.. and sometimes, fanboys are the worse people to base marketing decisions on...:(
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:36 PM   #271
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However, I will most likely not buy until the the 2013 ZL1's are out. If there isn't an auto option in 2012, it sounds as though there will be a better chance of it the following year. Is this an accurate assumption? But regardless of the transmission, I will own this beast!
There will be very few cars on the streets of America that will beat you, let alone challenge you in such a car. You could miss 3rd altogether and still walk away (and save alittle gas) from anything in your neighborhood (100 mile radius).

Most people don't even challenge SS's except those that are properly equipped..

But some people will have the equipment (Bumblebee I killed today).... Love you Camaro5!!!!
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:40 PM   #272
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Advertising "Now offering an Automatic ZL1!!!" a year later just for the sake of holding out.....is a tough sell. I'd question the rationale behind it. They may delay releasing an automatic ZL1...but if they do, I doubt its to strategically withhold a 'play'. More likely, they doubt this market's desire for an automatic and passed over the validation costs in favor of releasing a very competitively-priced car to 90% of people.

The G8 had a similar issue, if I remember correctly. No manual transmission in that car because they didn't expect the demand for it...when enthusiasts cried, they began to work on offering it, but then Pontiac.....well, that story's history. :(

There's a little over half a year to go before all details need to be written in stone, or close to it....if the demand is there, they'll cater to it. But only the team can see the big picture right now. We're (the enthusiast) one voice of many, albeit a loud one.....

Nevertheless, as John Fitzpatrick remarked during the webchat when asked if there will be an auto ZL1:

"Do you want one?".......
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:51 PM   #273
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If I were a product manager (I am not but Number 3 said he is going to hire me), I would let the product get a little wet first before I throw out all the stops. This is a new market for GM, Camaro or not, it is a different market. In my opinion, the 6L90 is a better transmission but it has some downfalls. If I were product manager, after a year plus of testing, I would have a pretty good idea that the 6060 equipped ZL1 could best the current GT500. If I wanted to lose my job at GM, I would play every card even after I knew that my base 6060 LSA could beat the GT500. Not only would I pour more funding into initial R&D and production, I would just be putting far too many nails into a coffin that Ford themselves are burying anyway. Ford is clever, but GM has to be even smarter and this is not the year (first year) to nail them. Acknowledge the competition, Bring the product to market and wait for Ford to show you something.. Remember, why put big money into a ZL1, when Ford's 200lbs weight loss is coming in 2013.. You don't want to put alot of R&D into a program just to have a 3400lb 5.0 GT walk all over you...

Were they late to the market? Yeah..... But they need to make intelligent decisions.. and sometimes, fanboys are the worse people to base marketing decisions on...:(


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Old 02-27-2011, 09:03 PM   #274
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Yeah, please don't.. most of those cars use a sequential manual transmission or a dual clutch semi-automatic... If your transmission comes with a torque converter, it is not related to the two transmissions...
Hang on a second so let me get this straight. So it's ok for a sports car to have a "semi automatic" which is essentially a manual without s clutch but you are still forced to switch gears on your own but if the transmission has a mode that allows the car to shift for you then it's not a real sports car? I'll settle for a automated manual (or semi automatic if you want to call it that).

I really don't think that you can trash talk automatic transmissions but then be ok with the transmissions in the cars I mentioned. It'd kind of hypocritical
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:18 AM   #275
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Considering a lot of the high end performance cars use automatic trans because a computer can shift faster than a human ever will (including bugatti veyron and lambo murcielago lp640), auto should be available on any performance car.
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