Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Lethal Racing
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics

Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics Camaro ZL1 specific topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-15-2011, 04:08 PM   #26
dragon22

 
dragon22's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS SIM
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,680
WOW! That is really something! AND it makes so much sense. I've been a licensed mechanic for 28 years and knew nothing of this process. Mind you, I've never been into building high performance engines, but I'm glad I learned about this process.

Can never be too information savvy! LOL
__________________
2010 2SS/RS - 6M Silver Ice Metallic

ARH LT Headers with MBRP 3" catback exhaust, Cold Air Inductions CAI, ZL1 inspired splitter, ZL1 Grille, Rear Fascia blackout, Gill decals, Aftermarket Hurst Short Throw shifter, Tune by Jannetty Racing.
dragon22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 05:57 PM   #27
justmeron

 
justmeron's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 camaro
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1,267
Send a message via AIM to justmeron
Wouldn't you think this process would be used on all the engines for a better product?
__________________
2010 2011 Chevrolet Camaro Faded Black Side Vent Highlight Decal Kit

Life is not like a box of chocolates, its more like eating a whole jar of jalapenos.... what you do today may burn your ass tomorrow!!!!
justmeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 06:11 PM   #28
Synerbee
SoCal Headturners
 
Synerbee's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SGM
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Anaheim Hills, California
Posts: 5,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by justmeron View Post
Wouldn't you think this process would be used on all the engines for a better product?
It cost factor that probably preventing them from doing that, and extra time.
Synerbee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 06:21 PM   #29
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icandrivejustnotlegally View Post
It cost factor that probably preventing them from doing that, and extra time.
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 06:32 PM   #30
dragon22

 
dragon22's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS SIM
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,680
Absolutely cost and time are both factors, but look at it this way...if you ever want an engine built, you're that much wiser with this knowledge in you data base!
__________________
2010 2SS/RS - 6M Silver Ice Metallic

ARH LT Headers with MBRP 3" catback exhaust, Cold Air Inductions CAI, ZL1 inspired splitter, ZL1 Grille, Rear Fascia blackout, Gill decals, Aftermarket Hurst Short Throw shifter, Tune by Jannetty Racing.
dragon22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 07:15 PM   #31
Mark H
 
Drives: 04 Denali
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: stockton ca
Posts: 390
Very interesting. I'll be watching this thread
__________________

But Officer, I swear its just a vacuum leak.

Those red things? those are smog pumps!

2004 Sierra Denali ----- 2/4 drop
LSX 438 TWIN TURBO

LSX Block Video
Block number 00370. Build Date 04/17/2007
Mark H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 08:38 PM   #32
armysig
Catch me if you can
 
armysig's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 IOM ZL-1
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,469
Very nice! It's little touches like this that will give GM the edge over the other manufactures.
armysig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:23 PM   #33
REAPER SS
 
REAPER SS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 CAMARO BLK 2SS/L99
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham,Al
Posts: 454
REAPER SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:39 PM   #34
ex-SS-ve
 

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by justmeron View Post
Wouldn't you think this process would be used on all the engines for a better product?
I always figured it was the standard for how a block should be machined and just assumed that it was common practice for every auto manufacturer to ensure the best quality built motor. Guess i was wrong about that.
ex-SS-ve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 11:04 PM   #35
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,788
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
Deck plate honing nearly duplicates the head bolt loads that cause distortion in the block when they are screwed in. By using the same gaskets, bolts, and torquing procedure, the cylinders deform like they would after the engine is assembled. After the plate is on, honing the cylinders makes them perfectly round again thereby eliminating blow-by and keeping the cylinder shape constant, improving efficiency and getting a longer life. When the engine runs, the block actually twists and deforms, and gets pulled every which way when all the components are screwed and bolted to it. By duplicating the loads that influence the distortion, you eliminate little inconsistancies, get a happier engine that will live a longer life. This is more important when pushing a design to it's limits. The higher the performance, the less room there is for error. This process is one that racers have been using for ions, and while these little inconsistancies don't effect the engine too much, when you're looking for every little bit of power, or looking for hitting a specific safety factor when you're pushing the envelop, this is one of the tools one can use to nearly assure the best running and longest lasting engine possible. If you've ever heard of engine blue-printing - this is an element of that process.
Great explanation!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon22 View Post
WOW! That is really something! AND it makes so much sense. I've been a licensed mechanic for 28 years and knew nothing of this process. Mind you, I've never been into building high performance engines, but I'm glad I learned about this process.

Can never be too information savvy! LOL
That's kinda cool to read!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-SS-ve View Post
I always figured it was the standard for how a block should be machined and just assumed that it was common practice for every auto manufacturer to ensure the best quality built motor. Guess i was wrong about that.
Don't let this lull you into believing the LS3s, etc are given "mediocre" attention. They have GREAT build quality and tolerances...the LSA, in this case, is given slightly more attention simply due to its higher power-levels, and potential for something to break.

Do you think Ford should use the expensive plasma-arc technology on ALL their cars? It's a better design than just standard press-fit sleeves....

Remember...high-performance "supercars" get to try out emerging technologies, first because their cost allows them to absorb the premium of these techniques....and then, in time, some of this trickles down to other, less-expensive cars. It's the same with the Volt -- the pinnacle of automotive efficiency in design. The aerodynamic work on the front air damn has made it to the Cruze...and the lithium batter/controller technology has made it to several Buicks with an "eAssist" badge.

Expensive cars get more stuff packed into them...high-po cars need hi-po attention...
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 11:22 PM   #36
ZYA_LTR
 
Drives: Waiting to be ordered
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 36
The torque-plate honing has been around awhile, so it isn't any kind of new magic mojo for engine building, but it does add alot of hands-on manual human labor that obviously adds tons to the cost of assembly, as the process to finish hone a block is time consuming requiring constant measuring and adjustment to the boring bars's stone pressures and such. I have done this work in an engine shop, and takes a skilled touch to do it carefully and correctly, try calling your local engine shop and ask them what they charge to do it, plus the costs for the machine and training of individuals to do it, on top of where do they draw the line for # of machines/employees running them to keep up with production and not slow it down. Glad to see they are adding this touch to the ZL1, but doesn't make me think any less of the LS3's.
ZYA_LTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 12:46 AM   #37
CC Performance
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 99 Camaro SS, 79 z28, 70 GTX
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ST Helens, OR
Posts: 1,777
Its a component of a precision build.
Its the difference between something you can do in your garage or a precision build to be honest. So is the align hone. Most shops don't do that as well but again its a component of a precision build. We do it every single time... deck to set proper quench, hone with correct tq plate and fasteners including side fasteners, align hone, balance..... Our engines cost a little more but they are precision built.. no step is ever skipped and I've talked to shops who will say that align honing is a waste and so is a few other things. BUT we've had customers bring us their engines and all we do is take them apart ..machine them properly and put them back together using all the same parts and gain 15-25 hp just from proper/precision block prep work.
CC Performance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 03:54 AM   #38
CyberGamaro
 
CyberGamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: CyberGray Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: One of those countries that end in "stan"
Posts: 68
This noob just learned something
__________________

Bi***es love smiley faces
CyberGamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:07 AM   #39
b4z

 
Drives: '06 Pontiac GTO M6, '09 V8 SRX RWD
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,216
Don't know if this has been posted before but on the LSA motors the heads are rotocasted to handle the extra cylinder pressures.
b4z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:17 AM   #40
detltu
 
detltu's Avatar
 
Drives: 1991 Z28 1LE
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madisonville, LA
Posts: 140
As many have mentioned this is not a new technique. It has been in use for racing engines (and probably very high end performance engines like Ferrari or Lamborghini). I am not sure when GM started using this process for Corvette engines but the LS7 for sure had it, anyone know if the LT5 was deck plate honed? It wouldn't surprise me either way. I think the big news here is that unless Ford has used the process on high end mustangs, this is likely the lowest price point car that has ever been offered with this process from the factory.

I would also assume that this process has been somewhat automated for LSA production.
__________________
1989 Camaro RS convertible- Sold
1999 Camaro SS - Stolen 2x
1991 Camaro Z28-
1991 Camaro Z28 1LE-
detltu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:24 AM   #41
stand-al0ne
Rev Couture
 
stand-al0ne's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 LS Camaro & 2013 Rav4 Ltd
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jamlando, FL
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post

Remember...high-performance "supercars" get to try out emerging technologies, first because their cost allows them to absorb the premium of these techniques....and then, in time, some of this trickles down to other, less-expensive cars. It's the same with the Volt -- the pinnacle of automotive efficiency in design. The aerodynamic work on the front air damn has made it to the Cruze...and the lithium batter/controller technology has made it to several Buicks with an "eAssist" badge.

Expensive cars get more stuff packed into them...high-po cars need hi-po attention...
^^Thats got to be the clearest way of explaining this.

Does anyone know if Ford or Dodge are using the same process on their Mustangs or Challengers? (referring to the GT/GT500 and 6.4L 392..)
I have read the 5.0 Mustang motor is pretty advanced in it own right also.
__________________
EBC Brakes| DOT 4|Bigworm| SickSpeed| BMR | IPF | Vararam| MRT |MGW | Nitto | Rx |
Iggee |ZL-1 Sways| Hurst | Apex Racing|Past: Srt-4| 6.0L GTO- RIP | '98 Integra

stand-al0ne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:52 AM   #42
IamJacksCamaro
 
IamJacksCamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro LS M6, Fiero, Ford F100
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by detltu View Post

I would also assume that this process has been somewhat automated for LSA production.
I agree. They have done something to keep the cost down.
IamJacksCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 10:11 AM   #43
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,788
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorlius View Post
Do they do this on the CTS-V LSA too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonneville2000 View Post
Yes. Common process with ZR1, Z06 and CTSV and Camaro ZL1 blocks.
I don't actually think the LSA out of the Cadillac recieves this treatment...the press release only makes a point to mention the LS9 and LS7 out of their respective Corvette models. And I can't find any proof elsewhere that the CTS-V's engine gets advanced bore-massage, too....
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:27 PM   #44
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by brantley847 View Post
For a reliable engine over extended years? it would relate to all of us..

However, what I don't get is it says a near perfect design based on this honing...so if that near perfect..what in the world is in our cars? Just decent? Not trying to sound whiny, just have no knowledge of this process.
Not quite as close to perfection as engines that get deck plate honing ...

There are two ways to look at tolerances. To most people, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to have a bore between 4.000 and 4.002" and don't really see the improvement in going down to 4.000 - 4.001. But to engineers and pro-builders, they see that as a 50% improvement, which is huge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I don't actually think the LSA out of the Cadillac recieves this treatment...the press release only makes a point to mention the LS9 and LS7 out of their respective Corvette models. And I can't find any proof elsewhere that the CTS-V's engine gets advanced bore-massage, too....
They could add it to the CTS-V when they begin production of ZL1.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:36 PM   #45
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,788
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
They could add it to the CTS-V when they begin production of ZL1.
I've since been corrected....the Press Release was apparently designed to be Chevy-only...(to help eliminate that cross-branding syndrome)...so they just "left out" the CTS-V when quoting cars.

LSA already has this done.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 11:27 AM   #46
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by stand-al0ne View Post
^^Thats got to be the clearest way of explaining this.

Does anyone know if Ford or Dodge are using the same process on their Mustangs or Challengers? (referring to the GT/GT500 and 6.4L 392..)
I have read the 5.0 Mustang motor is pretty advanced in it own right also.
I don't know if the GT500 gets deck plate honing, but I know they get a pretty advanced cylinder wall treatment that I can't remember the name of. There's some way the walls are coated with special material that makes it stronger. You can find it on the philley forums In all honestly - I believe the GTR borrowed this technology for it's 3.8L, too, so it's pretty advanced. I believe it was one of the ways Ford was able to go to an aluminum block while keeping the strength. It's pretty cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I've since been corrected....the Press Release was apparently designed to be Chevy-only...(to help eliminate that cross-branding syndrome)...so they just "left out" the CTS-V when quoting cars.

LSA already has this done.
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 04:10 PM   #47
mr02Z/28
 
Drives: 2002 Z/28,1968 Chevelle convert.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phila.,PA
Posts: 696
all this means is the Price is going to "Increase"...lol..after reading this article, i am soo sure this car's MSRP will easily start in the $50,000+ range...wow...and by the way,i thought i saw where a GM rep stated this car is a track car and if so, will they warranty the Driveline if it goes Ka-Booom ??
mr02Z/28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 09:20 PM   #48
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr02Z/28 View Post
all this means is the Price is going to "Increase"...lol..after reading this article, i am soo sure this car's MSRP will easily start in the $50,000+ range...wow...and by the way,i thought i saw where a GM rep stated this car is a track car and if so, will they warranty the Driveline if it goes Ka-Booom ??
Since its already incorporated into the cost of the LSA, its not going to add anything to the price over what the LSA already costs.

As for warranty, why wouldn't they? So long as you haven't modified anything in the powertrain and you aren't abusing it, they sorta have to cover it .
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 09:23 PM   #49
lets_go_bills

 
lets_go_bills's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2LT/RS CGM M6
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 814
Very cool.
__________________
2011 Chevrolet Camaro 2LT/RS Cyber Gray Metallic

lets_go_bills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2011, 01:54 PM   #50
MartiMcFly
 
MartiMcFly's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS-RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 66
Good to see some time is being put into the cars.

ZL1 is going to be to rich for me. Esp. if that $47,000 mark was for 1ss type options.
MartiMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Camaro Product Manager - interview Moose 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 11 04-04-2012 07:10 PM
Over 230 Satisfied 2010 Camaro Customers! Paddock Chevrolet has 40 in stock NOW camarojoe Dealer Camaros for Sale 2 05-24-2010 06:58 PM
GM memo to dealers Moose 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 41 02-04-2010 08:33 PM
Official Camaro Convertible CONCEPT Press Release Tran Camaro Convertible Forum 12 11-18-2009 08:05 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.