Prediction: Reviewers will spec the ZL1 close to the GT500 but not "better" than

[rez333]

What I've found with most cars is that the inhouse manufacture testers will "know" how to drive their own cars and be able to get performance numbers that will not be repeated when reviewers do their own testing. For example, most reviewers have not been able to achieve the claimed 3.9s 0-60 time that GM boasts for the CTS-V (eg. http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/c...-m3-coupe.html - notice they only got 3.9s with 1foot of rollout - a fact omitted by most reports that used the GM numbers)

For example, the Ford testers were able to lap the 2011 GT500 around VIR at 2m:58s - faster than the V10 Audi R8 and Porsche GT3, but the Car and Driver folks were only able to get 3m:04s. Based on the Mustang 5.0 times, I'm guessing that that day was a "slow" day because the 5.0 should track the same time as the M3 based on the Motortrend testing.

Onto the Camaro, the creators claim that the ZL1 will spank the GT500 but I suspect that when other non-Camaro focused testers drive the ZL1 that their comparison numbers will be significantly worse than the GM tester's numbers. I suspect that the ZL1 and GT500 will be roughly equal and beat each other in different aspects.

[nick at night]

?

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

:sm2:

[radz28]

There are VERY few reviewers I'd give any driving credit to. I don't leave it to any of the really mainstream media to give me an accurate idea of the true potential of a car. What - the fastest stock SS 1320' time from a magazine is like a 12.9 or something, while one of our Member's achieved something close to a 12.6 (NHRAstocker I think...). Magazines don't typically try to test under optimal conditions to get the best times. They don't powershift, they don't go to a prep'd track, this-and-that. I've read that doesn't necessarily reflect real-world results on the street, but I'm not racing on the street! Anyways - I always give Mr. Evan Smith who writes for one of the Mustang rags' 100% credit and a few of the reviewers on GMHTP, Scott Parker is one that comes to mind. Johnny Hunkins over at PHR is a good driver. Anyhoo - while I agree with most of your post, I buy the other magazines for the pictures, and not so much their opinions, lol.

[Number 3]

I didn't realize GM had made any performance claims for the ZL1 yet? I must have missed that.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I didn't realize GM had made any performance claims for the ZL1 yet? I must have missed that.

I don't recall GM saying ZL1 is going to "spank" anyone...

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I didn't realize GM had made any performance claims for the ZL1 yet? I must have missed that.

Originally Posted by radz28

I don't recall GM saying ZL1 is going to "spank" anyone...

Yep, some people just post to stir things up.

[rez333]

Please read the chat transcript on this same forum.

Did someone expect that the only things that people post on this forum is "yay" or "yippee" or some dumb-ass smiley? Geez - so much for the lack of intellectual conversation.

Here's the link for those people who only like to read "yay" or "yippee" type posts:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128453

[rez333]

Originally Posted by radz28

I don't recall GM saying ZL1 is going to "spank" anyone...

Al Oppenheiser:
I fully expect the competition to be in our Rear view mirror! I feel that to push the Camaro performance and technology to the limits is right and necessary, because at GM we don't just want to compete, we want to Win!
Wednesday February 9, 2011 3:09 Al Oppenheiser
3:09

"yay".. "yippee"..

[ffrcobra_65]

we'll just have to wait and see. can't wait to see a ZL1 on the road....trust me, it won't be from behind.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by radz28

I buy the other magazines for the pictures, and not so much their opinions, lol.

Radz, I am just the opposite, I buy Playboy for the articles.

[Darkflow]

Originally Posted by rez333

Al Oppenheiser:
I fully expect the competition to be in our Rear view mirror! I feel that to push the Camaro performance and technology to the limits is right and necessary, because at GM we don't just want to compete, we want to Win!
Wednesday February 9, 2011 3:09 Al Oppenheiser
3:09

"yay".. "yippee"..

Well what else do you expect anyone from GM to say about a car they just built thats supposed to be going up against the GT500. I mean seriously, do you think they'll say "ohh yea we hope it runs well against the GT500". They would be laughed at and called a joke.

As far as reviews go, most of the time. The tester's arent very good drivers and you shouldnt believe everything a manufacturer says is true either.

[nick at night]

The CTS-V beats the GT500 most of the time, I would expect the ZL1 to perform slightly above the V. So if V>GT and Z>V then Z>GT

and as far as reviewer's are concerned.... They will do what they always do;

The ZL1 will be on the cover of everything as the best car of the three and then Ford will tweak the interior and it will then be a better overall car. Right now everyone outside our community views the GT500 as the yard stick, which is a testament to the level it's at, but I think the ZL1 is on another level. A new yard stick

[jayman]

Originally Posted by rez333

For example, the Ford testers were able to lap the 2011 GT500 around VIR at 2m:58s - faster than the V10 Audi R8 and Porsche GT3, but the Car and Driver folks were only able to get 3m:04s. Based on the Mustang 5.0 times, I'm guessing that that day was a "slow" day because the 5.0 should track the same time as the M3 based on the Motortrend testing.

Your example is horribly closed minded. The point that car and driver made in that article was that ford put a racing seat and harness into that gt500 so they could hit the corners harder. Car and driver mentioned that they could have gotten faster laps out of the gt500 but they were fighting too much to stay in the seat to really attack the corners.

[redsap05]

This is kinda spam at the moment because we don't know what the zl1 will do. We can however use the cts-v for a very good benchmark for it. The zl1 will most likely be a mid to low 12 second car trapping around 115. Hopefully it will be much better than that. As far as gt500 vs zl-1, right now on paper the odds are stacked against the zl1 due to the gt500 weighing only 3750lbs and the zl1 will most likely be over 4000lbs.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I didn't realize GM had made any performance claims for the ZL1 yet? I must have missed that.

Sorry, Rez....but this is one of my least favorite threads in this section so far...bold claims to make with absolutely no ammunition...

You think they tested against the GT500 and put all this work into the ZL1 just to be "close" to the GT500? Noooooo.....expect it to be a very very sad snake...

[bobby35ny]

One thing that bother me a tad. Chevy showed the car a little too soon and tipped thier hand. Ford moves FAST, not like GM. They can get the few HP they need to surpass a ZL1 by Jan 2012. They can test against a CTS-V and say OK, we need lets say 25hp and 30lbs of TQ to take the ZL1, and get it done by the time the ZL1 ships.
-Bobby

[radz28]

Originally Posted by rez333

Please read the chat transcript on this same forum.

Did someone expect that the only things that people post on this forum is "yay" or "yippee" or some dumb-ass smiley? Geez - so much for the lack of intellectual conversation.

Here's the link for those people who only like to read "yay" or "yippee" type posts:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128453

Thanks for the recap, but I was there and read that transcript like a dozen times. I suppose I'd rather some "yippee" posts rather than crap on someone elses lawn, lol. I thought my intial post was relevant. You asked about reviewers and I provided examples of how objective some are not and that they hardly try to show what these cars are capable of. JMHO.

Originally Posted by rez333

Al Oppenheiser:
I fully expect the competition to be in our Rear view mirror! I feel that to push the Camaro performance and technology to the limits is right and necessary, because at GM we don't just want to compete, we want to Win!
Wednesday February 9, 2011 3:09 Al Oppenheiser
3:09

"yay".. "yippee"..

And I don't read where someone from GM says there's going to be a spanking, as you put. Furthermore, I believe Mr. O commented on the respect he had for the other cars in the segment in the GTG video.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Sorry, Rez....but this is one of my least favorite threads in this section so far...bold claims to make with absolutely no ammunition...

You think they tested against the GT500 and put all this work into the ZL1 just to be "close" to the GT500? Noooooo.....expect it to be a very very sad snake...

yes but my point is, non-GM drivers won't get the same performance numbers. GM has always managed to get better numbers than non-GM drivers - eg. GM's CTS-V claims have not been matched by other car reviewers. So following that pattern, the ZL-1 may not be as good as the creators think in other driver's hands.

Another perfect example is the 2010 Camaro SS. You would think that it would spank a 300HP Mustang GT right? Wrong! There were many categories it lost and it lost to something with 100HP less. Based on your logic that's impossible - and yet the 2010 Camaro SS is a perfect example.

No doubt that when GM drivers tested the 2010 Camaro SS - it beat the 300HP Mustang GT handedly in their own tests. They created the 2010 Camaro SS to beat the 300HP Mustang GT.

I am making a prediction that history will repeat itself: the ZL-1 will be very close to the GT500, but not better nor worse than.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by radz28

Thanks for the recap, but I was there and read that transcript like a dozen times. I suppose I'd rather some "yippee" posts rather than crap on someone elses lawn, lol. I thought my intial post was relevant. You asked about reviewers and I provided examples of how objective some are not and that they hardly try to show what these cars are capable of. JMHO.

Although I quoted you, I wasn't actually specifically talking *about* you, but about some other posters (who shall remain nameless) who have nothing better to do than reply with a sarcastic smiley or something similar.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

One thing that bother me a tad. Chevy showed the car a little too soon and tipped thier hand. Ford moves FAST, not like GM. They can get the few HP they need to surpass a ZL1 by Jan 2012. They can test against a CTS-V and say OK, we need lets say 25hp and 30lbs of TQ to take the ZL1, and get it done by the time the ZL1 ships.
-Bobby

I thought about that the other day too, the ZL1 at Chicago wasn't even finished but they still rolled it out early. I know that the announcement of a new ZL1 and even a special model every six months will keep the buzz alive but GM shouldn't panic at the sales slump over the winter, its natural. They should have held off until the summer and had a completed product ready for review...

You are right though, Ford does move fast.. the 2007 GT500 was originally built to compete with the inevitable 5th Gen Camaro Z28 (now the ZL1 I guess)

[thePill]

Well, I take that back... the Camaro is in the best position to sustain interest in the US sport coupe market so if it gets people moving I guess its cool... As a Ford fan, I am absolutely ecstatic that they showed early... Ford won't move their chess pieces until GM does.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

One thing that bother me a tad. Chevy showed the car a little too soon and tipped thier hand. Ford moves FAST, not like GM. They can get the few HP they need to surpass a ZL1 by Jan 2012. They can test against a CTS-V and say OK, we need lets say 25hp and 30lbs of TQ to take the ZL1, and get it done by the time the ZL1 ships.
-Bobby

And that's exactly why I believe the released HP specs are conservative. Why give the competition almost a year heads up? I think the reality is that nobody but GM knows what the target for the final power and weight numbers for this vehicle will be, and that includes Ford.

I still expect more HP than the CTS-V's current 556, unless they can somehow avoid the gas guzzler tax at the the estimated 550 HP number.

[Mark H]

Who would be willing to pay the gas guzzler tax for a significant HP increase over the 550 announced?

[radz28]

Originally Posted by thePill

I thought about that the other day too, the ZL1 at Chicago wasn't even finished but they still rolled it out early. I know that the announcement of a new ZL1 and even a special model every six months will keep the buzz alive but GM shouldn't panic at the sales slump over the winter, its natural. They should have held off until the summer and had a completed product ready for review...

You are right though, Ford does move fast.. the 2007 GT500 was originally built to compete with the inevitable 5th Gen Camaro Z28 (now the ZL1 I guess)

I think they were just trying to show us fanatics that they are listening and to "Keep the Faith". Having a convertible come out is great and all, but CAMARO is so much about performance that I think they knew the community needed to see, officially, that something is in the works. I think a lot of people are making a little too much of what they've read and heard (me included), but though we have some details, we still don't know how it all works together. We have next generation MR shocks and EPS; these are the generation after the current Y-bodies and CTS-Vs! (well - no EPS on CTS-V or 'Vette for that matter I think...). My point is, that though we've been given points of referrence, we don't know the specifics and to really make an opinion either way is too early at this point. It's no doubt Ford moves quickly though.

Originally Posted by thePill

Well, I take that back... the Camaro is in the best position to sustain interest in the US sport coupe market so if it gets people moving I guess its cool... As a Ford fan, I am absolutely ecstatic that they showed early... Ford won't move their chess pieces until GM does.

It'll be just as easy for GM to bump power as it will for Ford. It's not like they don't have the same validation GM has to face. I'll give on it having a stout 8.8" rear, but the tranny still has the same maximum loads (I don't recall what they are off the top of my head though). My point is, that each can make minor changes (like both did with the diesels recently). It's a GREAT time to be a car guy. Who'd have really thought we'd be discussing nearly 600 horse' factory CAMAROs and Mustangs?!!! It's only going to get more interesting

Originally Posted by Mark H

Who would be willing to pay the gas guzzler tax for a significant HP increase over the 550 announced?

I WOULD!!! We have the best chance at overcoming that, though. With the EPS, like that one the Shelby, some parasitic losses will be reduced, and what I believe to be probably slightly less restrictive intake and exhaust systems (in comparison to the LSA in the CTS-V), I think there could be a chance we could eek buy. I don't care if it doesn't though - that's just be icing on the cake