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Old 03-21-2011, 11:10 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Now you're......
Did you even read this thread?
Did you know the FIRST ZL1 was a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro? Back in 1969???
Did you know SLP as we know them didn't exist back then?
Did I read and understand that other post correctly?
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:22 AM   #104
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After reading some of these post, I'm embarrassed. Some need an education and some need to realize others have different needs and ideals from them. Peace fellow Camaro fans!
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:39 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
Did I read and understand that other post correctly?
Was it the one I deleted where I used not so nice names? Or the one I quoted?

...Yup, I read it a couple of times looking for a 'LOL' or sarcasm, I think he really believes what he posted
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:31 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Now you're......
Did you even read this thread?
Did you know the FIRST ZL1 was a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro? Back in 1969???
Did you know SLP as we know them didn't exist back then?
Can you elaborate more on ".... a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro?".
What was the 69 camaro?
What was the original engine?
Who put a 427 in it?
Was it an aftermarket performance mod "offered" by GM or was it manufactured with the 427 in it directly from GM?
My understanding is the ZL Camaro was originally a special COPO order, which is a custom of the production version to be used for racing applications and they didn't even have warranties (which was later changed). This would suggest it was someone elses idea not GM's.
I don't mind having egg on my face, but give me "all' the facts first.
Perhaps, my point is not getting communicated correctly, my understanding is the ZL1 was not an original order from GM, it was someone elses idea, and to this day the ZL brand appears to be "shared" by GM and "someone else" seems like it's SLP (don't know who they may have been in 69), I have no insight into the backdoor deals or the ties between SLP and GM from 1969 to 2011, but it's logical these ties exist in some shape or form. I truly don't believe GM would allow some vendor to use their brand if there wasn't some kind of legal trademark ownership happening behind the scenes which is creating some kind of partnership between the vendor and the vehicle manufacturer.
Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to convey.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Can you elaborate more on ".... a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro?".
What was the 69 camaro?
What was the original engine?
Who put a 427 in it?
Was it an aftermarket performance mod "offered" by GM or was it manufactured with the 427 in it directly from GM?
I don't mind having egg on my face, but give me "all' the facts first.
http://www.firstgencamaro.com/zl1.html
http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

The second link (better read) show how the ZL1 was developed form the SCCA road racing and NASCAR efforts

The ZL-1 Engine
The origins of the ZL-1 engine trace back to the SCCA's Can-Am Challenge Cup series of the mid-'60s. Chevrolet was providing engineering assistance and parts to Jim Hall's Chaparral racing team that was using aluminum 327 engines at the time. The engines had reached the end of their development and more power was needed for Chaparral to remain competitive. Since the big-block was well along in power development and reliability due to Chevrolets' involvement with the Smokey Yunick / Curtis Turner NASCAR effort, it offered the path of least resistance. But the Chaparral did not want the added weight of a cast-iron engine, so it would have to be developed in aluminum.
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:45 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Can you elaborate more on ".... a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro?".
What was the 69 camaro?
Really?
What was the original engine?
Off the top of my head, 265 I-6, 302 (Z/28), 327, 350, 396, 427
Who put a 427 in it?
Chevrolet, AT the factory.
Was it an aftermarket performance mod "offered" by GM or was it manufactured with the 427 in it directly from GM?
It was a factory COPO, not RPO, but it was all Chevy
My understanding is the ZL Camaro was originally a special COPO order, which is a custom of the production version to be used for racing applications and they didn't even have warranties (which was later changed). This would suggest it was someone elses idea not GM's.
Again, off the top of my head, it was Fred Gibbs idea, but Gibb didn't build them, he just ordered them. As far as warranty, don't know where you got that idea.
I don't mind having egg on my face, but give me "all' the facts first.
You asked me what a 69 Camaro was above..... If that wasn't sarcastic, then you need to read up on Camaro history, THEN we'll talk.
Perhaps, my point is not getting communicated correctly, my understanding is the ZL1 was not an original order from GM, it was someone elses idea, and to this day the ZL brand appears to be "shared" by GM and "someone else" seems like it's SLP (don't know who they may have been in 69), I have no insight into the backdoor deals or the ties between SLP and GM from 1969 to 2011, but it's logical these ties exist in some shape or form. I truly don't believe GM would allow some vendor to use their brand if there wasn't some kind of legal trademark ownership happening behind the scenes which is creating some kind of partnership between the vendor and the vehicle manufacturer.
Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to convey.
Mr. Hamburger (SLP) may have been making oil pans back in 69, but SLP and GM only go back as far as the early 90's?
GM let them 'borrow' the ZL1 tag, I have no idea what the terms were, but SLP was in no way tied to the original cars in 69.
Actually, the COPO 427 cars go back to 67? It was basically GM's way of getting hotrods out the back door of the plant.
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:59 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Mr. Hamburger (SLP) may have been making oil pans back in 69, but SLP and GM only go back as far as the early 90's?
GM let them 'borrow' the ZL1 tag, I have no idea what the terms were, but SLP was in no way tied to the original cars in 69.
Actually, the COPO 427 cars go back to 67? It was basically GM's way of getting hotrods out the back door of the plant.
Didn't mean to step on your toes, but some thing just make me go.

Her is a quote I like

A man begins cutting his wisdom teeth the first time he bites off more than he can chew. ~Herb Caen
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:30 PM   #110
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Didn't mean to step on your toes, but some thing just make me go.

Her is a quote I like

A man begins cutting his wisdom teeth the first time he bites off more than he can chew. ~Herb Caen
We're good... There's some guys on here that have taught me a thing or 3 about the 1st gens.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:28 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Can you elaborate more on ".... a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro?".
What was the 69 camaro?
What was the original engine?
Who put a 427 in it?
Was it an aftermarket performance mod "offered" by GM or was it manufactured with the 427 in it directly from GM?
My understanding is the ZL Camaro was originally a special COPO order, which is a custom of the production version to be used for racing applications and they didn't even have warranties (which was later changed). This would suggest it was someone elses idea not GM's.
I don't mind having egg on my face, but give me "all' the facts first.
Perhaps, my point is not getting communicated correctly, my understanding is the ZL1 was not an original order from GM, it was someone elses idea, and to this day the ZL brand appears to be "shared" by GM and "someone else" seems like it's SLP (don't know who they may have been in 69), I have no insight into the backdoor deals or the ties between SLP and GM from 1969 to 2011, but it's logical these ties exist in some shape or form. I truly don't believe GM would allow some vendor to use their brand if there wasn't some kind of legal trademark ownership happening behind the scenes which is creating some kind of partnership between the vendor and the vehicle manufacturer.
Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to convey.


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Old 03-21-2011, 07:21 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Can you elaborate more on ".... a 427 big block engine installed in a 69 Camaro?".
What was the 69 camaro?
What was the original engine?
Who put a 427 in it?
Was it an aftermarket performance mod "offered" by GM or was it manufactured with the 427 in it directly from GM?
My understanding is the ZL Camaro was originally a special COPO order, which is a custom of the production version to be used for racing applications and they didn't even have warranties (which was later changed). This would suggest it was someone elses idea not GM's.
I don't mind having egg on my face, but give me "all' the facts first.
Perhaps, my point is not getting communicated correctly, my understanding is the ZL1 was not an original order from GM, it was someone elses idea, and to this day the ZL brand appears to be "shared" by GM and "someone else" seems like it's SLP (don't know who they may have been in 69), I have no insight into the backdoor deals or the ties between SLP and GM from 1969 to 2011, but it's logical these ties exist in some shape or form. I truly don't believe GM would allow some vendor to use their brand if there wasn't some kind of legal trademark ownership happening behind the scenes which is creating some kind of partnership between the vendor and the vehicle manufacturer.
Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to convey.
I won't add any further info as you've already been given some good answers. There are plenty of posts in several threads from several different knowledgeable people on these forums, perhaps the search function might be of use to you prior to posting about a topic that you are not overly familar with. There are also a multitude of excellent books documenting first generation Camaro history. Don't want to buy a book? There are also many excellent websites documenting first gen. Camaro history, no need to buy a book, a few seconds with Google search will find them for you.
Clyde

Last edited by wildpaws; 03-21-2011 at 07:22 PM. Reason: text correction
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Old 03-22-2011, 04:48 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
I won't add any further info as you've already been given some good answers. There are plenty of posts in several threads from several different knowledgeable people on these forums, perhaps the search function might be of use to you prior to posting about a topic that you are not overly familar with. There are also a multitude of excellent books documenting first generation Camaro history. Don't want to buy a book? There are also many excellent websites documenting first gen. Camaro history, no need to buy a book, a few seconds with Google search will find them for you.
Clyde
I think we're all saying the same thing, except some of it getting lost in interpretation.
I've done a lot of reading on the COPO ZL1, on this thread and from other reliable sources. So, everyone is recanting what I already know and read.
I'm more curious about the ZL1 brand details than the 69 Camaro specs., everyone else is stuck on the specs. not the ZL1 brand details.
ie - When I ask what is a 69 Camaro, I'm not being sarcastic nor am I ignorant of the fact that there was a 69 Camaro, I'm asking what was it originally before the "idea" of the COPO ZL1, trying to draw a tie that if I were to come up with an idea, even if the materials are not made by myself the ZL1 brand would belong to me not anyone else. And, futher, because I didn't make the materials, there could be some type of partnership.
So, that's my argument here not the specs. or materials, but more the "sharing" of the brand between ZL1 and GM, and why GM would share a brand if it were theirs to begin with. Highly unlikely.
That's like me hacking a Mercedes and then reselling it as an SL550, with approval from Mercedes. What's in it for them? Why would they do it?
In my mind there must be a possibility that the ZL1 brand is not fully owned by GM. I could be wrong, but I just find it higly unlikely, because nothing in it for GM to allow other vendors to use their brand names. But, ya' never know, maybe GM is doing it out of the goodness of ther executive hearts.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:23 PM   #114
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From what I have heard; ZL-1 was an option code but was only available under COPO 9561 (IIRC). Piggins wanted to one up the COPO 9560 (yenko and the likes) by coming out with an all aluminum version. I'm not sure if Fred Gibb had anything to do with this or not. The engine was used prior though. These cars started life as SS396 (375hp) cars and then has the SS emblems and engine deleted and a cowl hood added as were the 4:10 rear gears. IIRC this car did in fact have a factory warranty. Of the original 69 cars build something like 30 of them ended up going back to Chevy because they were not sold at the dealers. It took Chevy quite a while to sell them off. 20-something of them went straight into racing and another 12 or 15 had the engines taken out and sold separately. Also I am not sure about this but wasn't the ZL-1 engine a carry over from an earlier Corvette, maybe that was the 1969 Corvette as well but it came out earlier than the ZL1 Camaro? GM let SLP use the ZL1 nameplate (maybe even sold the trademark???) Now they share it? Maybe that was all part of the original sale/agreement between SLP and GM? I think GM had it as ZL-1 whereas SLP has it as ZL1 though.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:39 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
I think we're all saying the same thing, except some of it getting lost in interpretation.
I've done a lot of reading on the COPO ZL1, on this thread and from other reliable sources. So, everyone is recanting what I already know and read.
I'm more curious about the ZL1 brand details than the 69 Camaro specs., everyone else is stuck on the specs. not the ZL1 brand details.
ie - When I ask what is a 69 Camaro, I'm not being sarcastic nor am I ignorant of the fact that there was a 69 Camaro, I'm asking what was it originally before the "idea" of the COPO ZL1, trying to draw a tie that if I were to come up with an idea, even if the materials are not made by myself the ZL1 brand would belong to me not anyone else. And, futher, because I didn't make the materials, there could be some type of partnership.
So, that's my argument here not the specs. or materials, but more the "sharing" of the brand between ZL1 and GM, and why GM would share a brand if it were theirs to begin with. Highly unlikely.
That's like me hacking a Mercedes and then reselling it as an SL550, with approval from Mercedes. What's in it for them? Why would they do it?
In my mind there must be a possibility that the ZL1 brand is not fully owned by GM. I could be wrong, but I just find it higly unlikely, because nothing in it for GM to allow other vendors to use their brand names. But, ya' never know, maybe GM is doing it out of the goodness of ther executive hearts.
In 1969 the ZL1 designation was not a brand (just as today it is not a brand but rather a model name), it was a designation for an aluminum block 427 CID engine designed for racing, just as the L71 was the RPO code designation for a solid lifter 3 x 2 bbl carb equipped iron block 427 CID engine installed in Corvettes, or as the L78 was the RPO designation for a solid lifter 396 CID engine.

Would you consider either the L71 or L78 a brand?

In 1969 Chevrolet installed, at the factory, the ZL1 engine in sixty-nine 9560 COPO Camaros and two Corvettes. The ZL1 was an engine option that could ordered in a Camaro or Corvette.

I hope this helps your understanding of the ZL1 engine from 1969.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:49 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
I think we're all saying the same thing, except some of it getting lost in interpretation.
I've done a lot of reading on the COPO ZL1, on this thread and from other reliable sources. So, everyone is recanting what I already know and read.
I'm more curious about the ZL1 brand details than the 69 Camaro specs., everyone else is stuck on the specs. not the ZL1 brand details.
ie - When I ask what is a 69 Camaro, I'm not being sarcastic nor am I ignorant of the fact that there was a 69 Camaro, I'm asking what was it originally before the "idea" of the COPO ZL1, trying to draw a tie that if I were to come up with an idea, even if the materials are not made by myself the ZL1 brand would belong to me not anyone else. And, futher, because I didn't make the materials, there could be some type of partnership.
So, that's my argument here not the specs. or materials, but more the "sharing" of the brand between ZL1 and GM, and why GM would share a brand if it were theirs to begin with. Highly unlikely.
That's like me hacking a Mercedes and then reselling it as an SL550, with approval from Mercedes. What's in it for them? Why would they do it?
In my mind there must be a possibility that the ZL1 brand is not fully owned by GM. I could be wrong, but I just find it higly unlikely, because nothing in it for GM to allow other vendors to use their brand names. But, ya' never know, maybe GM is doing it out of the goodness of ther executive hearts.
What?????????? I have no idea what you just wrote, but you are making this WAY to complicated. GM created the ZL1. I have no idea what you mean by ZL1 brand, but GM is the company and they created the 1969 ZL1 Camaro.
The specs of that car is ALL that matter.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:55 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Shu71 View Post
From what I have heard; ZL-1 was an option code but was only available under COPO 9561 (IIRC). Piggins wanted to one up the COPO 9560 (yenko and the likes) by coming out with an all aluminum version. I'm not sure if Fred Gibb had anything to do with this or not. The engine was used prior though. These cars started life as SS396 (375hp) cars and then has the SS emblems and engine deleted and a cowl hood added as were the 4:10 rear gears. IIRC this car did in fact have a factory warranty. Of the original 69 cars build something like 30 of them ended up going back to Chevy because they were not sold at the dealers. It took Chevy quite a while to sell them off. 20-something of them went straight into racing and another 12 or 15 had the engines taken out and sold separately. Also I am not sure about this but wasn't the ZL-1 engine a carry over from an earlier Corvette, maybe that was the 1969 Corvette as well but it came out earlier than the ZL1 Camaro? GM let SLP use the ZL1 nameplate (maybe even sold the trademark???) Now they share it? Maybe that was all part of the original sale/agreement between SLP and GM? I think GM had it as ZL-1 whereas SLP has it as ZL1 though.
At least someone gets it. You might be right ZL-1 vs ZL1 and sharing.

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Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS View Post
What?????????? I have no idea what you just wrote, but you are making this WAY to complicated. GM created the ZL1. I have no idea what you mean by ZL1 brand.....
Don't worry about it. It's not that important to stress over.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
In 1969 the ZL1 designation was not a brand (just as today it is not a brand but rather a model name), it was a designation for an aluminum block 427 CID engine designed for racing,
Yeah valid point. Similar in the way numerous automakers share LS, LE, et al. That would make sense I guess. ZL1 and Z28 are very unusual model names, I would have thought GM would have locked down dibs on those names or trademarked.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:00 PM   #118
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At least someone gets it. You might be right ZL-1 vs ZL1 and sharing of that brand name.


Don't worry about it. It's not that important to stress over.
Okay, LMFAO
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:36 PM   #119
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At least someone gets it. You might be right ZL-1 vs ZL1 and sharing.


Don't worry about it. It's not that important to stress over.


Yeah valid point. Similar in the way numerous automakers share LS, LE, et al. That would make sense I guess. ZL1 and Z28 are very unusual model names, I would have thought GM would have locked down dibs on those names or trademarked.
If you were knowledgeable about the first gen. history, then you would already be aware of the ZL1 history, who used it first, and all of the nuances involved in today's world. Essentially your conjectures, and suppositions sound like like a totally uninformed Camaro fan. Sort of like same old stuff repeated in so many places like "the 302 was a Ford engine, Chevy never made a 302", when the reality is Chevy had a 302 in the Z/28 Camaro before Ford ever put one in the Mustang. Conjectures and suppositions are only reality when backed up by facts.
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