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Old 03-02-2011, 07:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I guess I should have re-phrased it. I do not think that the ZL1 will continue on to the Alpha chassis with a S/C 6.2 engine. Everything seems to point to a downsizing of engines to meet efficiency and CAFE requirements. If they do continue the ZL1 nameplate it will be with a smaller DI engine that hopefully makes the same power. The current ZL1 will be the last of the "Big Blocks" for quite some time.
Interesting take on the situation...Here's my opinion, for what its worth...

The CTS is getting bigger.
The CTS will be on a long-wheelbase version of the Alpha chassis.
The CTS will still harbor a 'V' series model...
...therefore the CTS will still need a lot of freakin' power to keep it competitive.
The ZR1 Corvette will also continue in the next generation...

I think the chances of a forced-induction, moderate-to-high displacement Gen V smallblock is high, because the need for that sort of power will be there.

And if they felt like it...I think they could justify using this theoretical engine in a smaller 6thgen Camaro for a ZL1-on-steroids.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:04 PM   #52
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Go simple.

forged wheels = less weight
manual seats = less weight
2 piece rotors 6/4 pistons calipers = less weight
coilovers/performance suspension (Pedders/Pfadt) = less weight
electric steering = less weight
LS7 = more power
3.73 gearing = more performance

This is very doable.
Maybe lose 150 lbs. off a 1SS (Huh, Number 3)
4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
$42,000.

Any comments Number 3? I respect your thoughts!
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
I read those and smiled a little....only because the ZL1 will likely do as good or better...and come with all the trimmings inside.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Go simple.

forged wheels = less weight
manual seats = less weight
2 piece rotors 6/4 pistons calipers = less weight
coilovers/performance suspension (Pedders/Pfadt) = less weight
electric steering = less weight
LS7 = more power
3.73 gearing = more performance

This is very doable.
Maybe lose 150 lbs. off a 1SS (Huh, Number 3)
4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
$42,000.

Any comments Number 3? I respect your thoughts!
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:39 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
Much easier and cheaper way to go....purchase a "Body in White" rolling chassis and base build the car. Use lexan windows and for the side windows eliminate ALL mechanisms and install a strap and a velcro "latch" to hold it up (Dodge Feather Dusters had them), acid dip body before assembly, and cut the excess off every bolt that sticks out from the top of a nut....I did this on my malibu and had a bucket of titties that weighed 11.5 POUNDS!!!
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:16 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
The problem I have with this information is that the car is scheduled to be released next April. The new ZL1 starts production Jan. 2012 and gets to dealers in March 2012. I don't think the Z28 will come into showrooms a month later.

As much as I had hoped the name of the coming ZL1 was actually Z28, the car itself is actually what I was looking for. I have gotten used to the fact that it will be named ZL1 and that further down the road there will be a Z28. It most likely will NOT be a S/C engine and be more of a road star. I hope for those of you that will wait for the Z28, that it will be everything that you want it to be. Chevy built me exactly what I wanted in a ZL1. There may be cars built that will be faster or others that handle better, but none that will take the place of my ZL1.
I agree whole heartedly with you Jedi. I want to ad that based on what we know about the whole Z28 idea and project with the Gen 5 body and what GM went through to get where we are now, I feel that the ZL-1 became the fruition of the Z28 idea. It morphed into the ZL-1 because of the time lag and the competitions unobstructed product advancement. I think it was a stroke of luck, fate, timing, and genious. It will be the fastest factory produced straight line and top end Camaro of all time IMHO. That's what I am after. I wanted the Z28 emblem on it too, I wanted this rumored in testing and in development Camaro we all followed over the past couple of years to be that moniker. I am an old Z28 guy from way back. However, as every day passes and the more I think about the ZL-1 in it's entirety I know that it's something unique and special. It's everything I always wanted, and then some! And this ZL-1 moniker will never come back again. The Z28 will come back, and will probably be the niche road course performer that it is speculated to be. Hey, no one ever said you can only fall in love once. And Shakespear was right about whats in a name. But I am truely in love with the ZL-1. And new romances are always exciting.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:13 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.
There is a happy medium with the casted/flow formed wheels that Enkei and OZ offer. They are quite durable, light weight and half the price of forged wheels. Alot of weight can be lost just by down sizing from the 20's, to 19's alone.

Quote:
Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.
Go all cloth race buckets and maybe a rear seat delete option.

Quote:
I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.
Stock springs and shocks are usually pretty light, its hard to lose weight here with performance suspension but weight gain can be mitigated with lightweight control arms, sways and links.

Quote:
I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.
I think EPAS is very close to the old school PS, But it's a great addition...

Quote:
LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.
I think the LS3 weighs less at 418lbs and is cheaper. This is the same predicament Ford is in with the 5.0 and the 5.4. The 5.4, just like the LS7 is only used in a very limited applications. Upgrading an LS3 would cost less, weigh less and produce enough power to make the LS7 obsolete.. So why not save some money...

Quote:
Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.
Quote:
Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.
As far as gearing, you know what to do, and I think an lighter valve train and EPAS could easily avoid a GG tax.. Look into transmissions, you can save some weight by moving to a Getrag (40lbs) and have 5 useful gears instead of just 4..

Fuel tank: Good idea, research the typical classes that this type of vehicle would run in and find the duration of each race... Adjust the fuel tank accordingly, if its a 1 or 2 hour race, they are going to have to use a fuel cell anyway and relocate the fuel door for pit stops.

Quote:
Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)
Wow!!!

Quote:
Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)
Getting expensive now...

Quote:
Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)
Outta my price range but really cool...


Quote:
If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.
Peak power can be ignored, its the curve and freeing up some RPM's that a track star is interested in. I still like the Z51 package for suspension... You don't need to widen the tires, if you don't stagger the wheel/tire size you can eliminate oversteer. Oversteer (correction: Under steer) mostly comes from weight and an oversized rear tire. If this is a track car, it is better to offer 275/40-19's all the way around so the driver/team can rotate the tires and save money. You just have to watch for snap understeer, but the ability to rotate the car will improve with running a 275/40-19 all the way around (and weight/rotational mass)..

Last edited by thePill; 03-06-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:32 PM   #58
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With 275/40 (or 35's)-19's you can run a 19x9" wheel all around. Weight savings, using a casted/flow formed wheel over the stock casted 20's could save you almost 10lbs in the wheels alone. The weight from the tires, front to rear, wouldn't increase weight at all.. In fact, depending on the tire (PS2, P-Zero are the lightest) you could acually save a pound or two in rubber per wheel... Its the sidewall that adds weight more that tread.. You could come out with weight savings of 40+lbs in wheels and tires. If the weight of the vehicle drops below 3800lbs, look into a 14" front, 13" rear disc (maybe smaller).. weight saved again...
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Interesting take on the situation...Here's my opinion, for what its worth...

The CTS is getting bigger.
The CTS will be on a long-wheelbase version of the Alpha chassis.
The CTS will still harbor a 'V' series model...
...therefore the CTS will still need a lot of freakin' power to keep it competitive.
The ZR1 Corvette will also continue in the next generation...

I think the chances of a forced-induction, moderate-to-high displacement Gen V smallblock is high, because the need for that sort of power will be there.

And if they felt like it...I think they could justify using this theoretical engine in a smaller 6thgen Camaro for a ZL1-on-steroids.
I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:28 PM   #60
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I agree whole heartedly with you Jedi. I want to ad that based on what we know about the whole Z28 idea and project with the Gen 5 body and what GM went through to get where we are now, I feel that the ZL-1 became the fruition of the Z28 idea. It morphed into the ZL-1 because of the time lag and the competitions unobstructed product advancement. I think it was a stroke of luck, fate, timing, and genious. It will be the fastest factory produced straight line and top end Camaro of all time IMHO. That's what I am after. I wanted the Z28 emblem on it too, I wanted this rumored in testing and in development Camaro we all followed over the past couple of years to be that moniker. I am an old Z28 guy from way back. However, as every day passes and the more I think about the ZL-1 in it's entirety I know that it's something unique and special. It's everything I always wanted, and then some! And this ZL-1 moniker will never come back again. The Z28 will come back, and will probably be the niche road course performer that it is speculated to be. Hey, no one ever said you can only fall in love once. And Shakespear was right about whats in a name. But I am truely in love with the ZL-1. And new romances are always exciting.
Like you, I believe that GM had full intentions at one time to name the coming ZL1 a 'Z28' and over time things changed. Ed Welburn came out along time ago and said that the Z28 would be returning. As time continued with the Z28 project it evolved into the ZL1 project. Like you, I am more sympathetic towards the name Z28 because it was a car that I grew up with. But with everything that Chevy did with the ZL1 and we still do not know everything that is in the package, it is a phenomenal car. The name Z28 would have been nice, but I see why they chose ZL1 and I can live with that name very easily. I just need to convince them that it needs the rear brake vents from the Jay Leno car and a Marina Blue paint job. Thanks for the nice words.
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.

I dont see why not. I realize its more expensive, but this also isnt a "plain" SS so to speak. For one it takes no more space than the LS3, except for the dry sump tank. And to the untrained eye it looks identical. Also, GM as it, why not use it? Its just another weapon in the arsenal. If Ford wants to step it up, I say we one-up them. Who says we cant have the best of both worlds? Displacement and DI.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:10 PM   #62
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LS7 is not a big block.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:57 PM   #63
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A few random thoughts.

1. The SSX is a rough draft of what GM envisions the Z/28 to be.
2. If GM didn't intend to build a Z/28 in addition to the ZL1, the ZL1 would have been named Z/28.
3. Number 3 mentions that a tweaked LS3 (that's what they show to be in the SSX by the way) would render the LS7 obsolete. As far as I've heard the LS7 is being discontinued to begin with so that's not a big deal.
4. Number 3 mentions WAY too many real world options for us not to believe the GM engineers have not spent time developing a Z/28 if only in CAD.
5. If GM had not filed for bankruptcy as a result of the financial meltdown we would already have a Z/28.
6. If we don't see a Z/28 as a road worthy production intent vehicle on the 5th gen platform, we will definitely see one in the next gen.
7. Having a Z/28 fit in between the SS and ZL1 makes perfect sense. The Camaro sells in much higher volumes than the Corvette and the Corvette is available in the following trims, LT, Grand Sport, Z06 and ZR1.

I really wanted to buy a 2010 Camaro but it didn't work out for a daily driver (I have a wife and three kids). I did however do the next best thing to help see future generations and trim levels of Camaros. I bought a 2010 Malibu. The better GM does as a corporation, the more we will see from them.

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Old 03-03-2011, 10:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a fact-less observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
Xa coilovers are lighter than OE assemblies but the Supercar remotes reservoirs are about the same.

As long as we are speculating about what could be a Z28... On Leno's Garage his video says the Z28 will be a twin turbo direct injection six.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras...aro-sema-2009/

Would there be a weight reduction with the Leno setup?
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Old 03-04-2011, 11:54 AM   #65
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I dont see why not. I realize its more expensive, but this also isnt a "plain" SS so to speak. For one it takes no more space than the LS3, except for the dry sump tank. And to the untrained eye it looks identical. Also, GM as it, why not use it? Its just another weapon in the arsenal. If Ford wants to step it up, I say we one-up them. Who says we cant have the best of both worlds? Displacement and DI.
Because it would add $8,000-$10,000 to the price of the car before anything else is touched.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:53 PM   #66
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I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.
Agreed, again to a point. Turbos are only moderately lighter than superchargers once you factor in all the plumbing...and for a V8 application, you'd almost certainly need twin-turbochargers. The Corvette racer does make great power, but it probably won't be enough for a larger (probably similar weight) CTS-V later in the decade...

Just remember back to when they transfered over to the LS-series engines...today's story started with a naturally-aspirated, 350hp 5.7L V8....
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Old 03-04-2011, 08:32 PM   #67
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I think GM will lower the displacement, add direct injection and other (VVT) items to make the same power.

Turbos fail. Look at the EcoLoser Taurus SHO. Same power as a V8!! Yeah, and the same freaking fuel mileage, with no OMG low-end torque.

They are thinking about using AFM across the board, but they better refine it a lot, because it's an intrusive POS now.
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Old 03-04-2011, 11:26 PM   #68
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GM is, and has been a follower and not a leader in the Pony car market.

I say this because they are usually reactive instead of proactive when it comes to innovation and thrusting out new models.

But, when Camaro responds to a Mustang bite, it usually responds with a hammer. I wish they WOULD bring out something that you see FORD for a change go out and buy a ZL1 or Z28 or whatever to go comparison testing their new model. But so far we've only seen that with the ZL1 testing.

I'm tired of the answers following the question. For once I'd like to see GM get out in front. FAR in front.

Other than that, the "car wars" are great. In the end we all win, whichever brand we prefer.

But that article...PURE speculation. All of it. Only GM knows for sure.

True and I think GM would be better off coming out with a different car, I mean having 2-3 different camaros I dont know guess its cheaper for them. But Camaro isnt mustang where it can release 50 million different brands.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:47 PM   #69
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Agreed, again to a point. Turbos are only moderately lighter than superchargers once you factor in all the plumbing...and for a V8 application, you'd almost certainly need twin-turbochargers. The Corvette racer does make great power, but it probably won't be enough for a larger (probably similar weight) CTS-V later in the decade...

Just remember back to when they transfered over to the LS-series engines...today's story started with a naturally-aspirated, 350hp 5.7L V8....
With the Jay Leno TT V6 making 425HP, the Alpha chassis Z28 could go this route. I just do not see larger displacement V8's with S/C induction for many more years from the factory.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:12 PM   #70
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With the Jay Leno TT V6 making 425HP, the Alpha chassis Z28 could go this route. I just do not see larger displacement V8's with S/C induction for many more years from the factory.
We'll see. That's really all I can say at this point - we don't know anything, yet.

Consider, though...when hp rises...TTV6s don't offer very much at all over a DI V8.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:38 PM   #71
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Although I honestly admire the evolution of the TT V6's, I just can't see a TT V6 being the track option for a Camaro Z28. The only two TT's that would even be considered is the 3.0 and the 3.6, it is proven that the 3.6 can make 425hp but it wasn't made public if the setup could pass emissions. The TT 3.0 is being produced to compete with at least 350hp but as of now only produces 270 hp and 213 lb-ft.
The weight of a VVT, DOHC V6 twin turbo with exchanger/intercooler and plumbing could very likely push 400+lbs. Even if the 3.0 uses the more compact valley turbo setup, it will still weigh a decent amount. It is said that the TT 3.6 could produce fuel efficiency numbers equal to a 3.6 V6 but again, this engine as far as I know is uncertified. The 3.0 is currently being designed with performance, fuel efficiency, emission requirements and could possibly be much lighter than the 3.6. Although, the 3.0 will not perform as the 3.6 does, as it could be around 360hp but really fall behind on torque due to smaller bore/stroke. However, unless they are offered against a new Gen5 V8, the cost of a V8 that already exist will be much, much lower. Regrettably, there is simply no room for a TT V6 as an entry level engine or a high performance option as long as the standard N/A V8 is around.

There is a remedy for that though. The Gen5 V8 (or V8's) will feature an engine block with a "raised" cam. The camshaft will set higher in the block, farther away from the crank and allow for the pushrods to enter the head casting at a greater angle. This aggressive pushrod angle will flatten the pushrod movement to more of a left to right operation instead of the traditional up-down at a "V" angle. This will increase valve train speed and also eliminate the pushrods operation through the intake port as pushrods have always naturally done. The LS3 heads offset the pushrods further into the head casting and away from the intake port to increase airflow but doing so, it placed the pushrod guides in the direct path of direct injection. This new Gen5 will obviously host DI, increasing fuel economy, efficiency, eliminate valve train parasitic losses, increase valve train speed increasing maximum RPMs and increase horsepower, torque at a flatter power curve with better CO2 emission output. This can all be accomplished simultaneously while reducing the displacement if only by a fraction of a litre. Larger displacement will become more and more obsolete as standard V8's become super efficient and with efficiency naturally comes power. If a standard NA V8 could produce 440hp, get 28mpg, have a 7000rpm redline and weigh just as the current V8's do then a TT V6 could definitely become a bargain performance option, especially when the majority of aftermarket money is in forced induction. A high volume TT V6 could broaden GMPP's aftermarket stance because a 350hp, 32mpg package would be highly marketable. Surely a FI, fully forged Gen5 would find its way into a bragger model in limited numbers if needs be. The Ecotec I4 (maybe for extreme sales volume) could also bolster the aftermarket along with the TT V6 as it would inherently be lighter than the TT V6 and could manage 300hp at 3400lbs and still attract the masses with a 36mpg.. all for the base MSRP of what a V6 Camaro offers now.

The NA Gen5 would be reserved for the Z28, offered along with the SS (TT V6, You say Super Sport, I say Standard Sport) equaling it in weight but producing numbers far higher than the SS with the exception of MPG's.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:21 PM   #72
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I'd agree with most of what you said, Pill.

I think your fuel economy assumptions are a little aggressive/hopeful, and none of us know if GM's been working on a performance-oriented 3.6L TT V6 in the basement (I'll bet my ZL1 they do...)...

Still, good overview!

The best thing about the Gen V V8...is that although you'll probably see its application shrink slightly thanks to better V6s and increasing fuel economy/emissions standards...it'll hardly disappear. Trucks are a very big part of GM's portfolio. As is the Corvette, and Camaro. So long as those three factors exist -- there will be a Small Block Chevy available to be shoehorned into any vehicle they think appropriate.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:46 AM   #73
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I'd agree with most of what you said, Pill.

I think your fuel economy assumptions are a little aggressive/hopeful, and none of us know if GM's been working on a performance-oriented 3.6L TT V6 in the basement (I'll bet my ZL1 they do...)...

Still, good overview!

The best thing about the Gen V V8...is that although you'll probably see its application shrink slightly thanks to better V6s and increasing fuel economy/emissions standards...it'll hardly disappear. Trucks are a very big part of GM's portfolio. As is the Corvette, and Camaro. So long as those three factors exist -- there will be a Small Block Chevy available to be shoehorned into any vehicle they think appropriate.
The MPG estimates may be hopeful but it wouldn't be insane to think that a 5.5 (stay with that number for now) with Electric power steering, Direct Injection, VVT, Cylinder deactivation (go without if possible), maybe some fancy cylinder wall work and (this is really hopeful) Electric Air Conditioning!!! I could see 28mpg over the 24 the LS3 has in which uses none of the above. Figure in some well thought out gearing in both transmission and in the final and it could possibly be higher. All my other MPG guesses are based off of the Gen5 guesstimation and again... very hopeful...

Not sure if the engines are certified with A/C running or not but just think... EAC could see a small gain like the EPAS in both power and MPG's while not in use and no penalty for full blast ... Hell, if it wasn't costing me power and fuel, I would pump cold air right into the intake from the A/C... Now that's CAI!!!

Gotta stop... gettin off topic...

Edit: Those are highway guesstimations...

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Old 03-06-2011, 09:18 AM   #74
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The MPG estimates may be hopeful but it wouldn't be insane to think that a 5.5 (stay with that number for now) with Electric power steering, Direct Injection, VVT, Cylinder deactivation (go without if possible), maybe some fancy cylinder wall work and (this is really hopeful) Electric Air Conditioning!!! I could see 28mpg over the 24 the LS3 has in which uses none of the above. Figure in some well thought out gearing in both transmission and in the final and it could possibly be higher. All my other MPG guesses are based off of the Gen5 guesstimation and again... very hopeful...

Not sure if the engines are certified with A/C running or not but just think... EAC could see a small gain like the EPAS in both power and MPG's while not in use and no penalty for full blast ... Hell, if it wasn't costing me power and fuel, I would pump cold air right into the intake from the A/C... Now that's CAI!!!

Gotta stop... gettin off topic...

Edit: Those are highway guesstimations...
Pill, the improvements you suggest are all directionally correct, however, they don't add up to 4 mpg on an LS3. The only thing the L99 doesn't have is DI and EPS, and those don't add up to 4 mpg (unless you are willing to take less performance)and if you are asking for AFM on a manual that's a whole different set of challenges. That's why there is an L99 in the first place. And any changes to the cylinder and combustion chamber are miniscule refinements on years and years of practice in this area, not giant leaps. This is a daily battle for tenths and tenths of tenths.

But I love the optimism

What you haven't covered is a more aggressive FE oriented calibration. Early torque converter lock up, much more aggressive decel fuel cut off. Earlier shifting. For the most part that is already done, but you could go further. But if you simply calibrate the car to "force" FE, then you will PO customers. Refer to the original Lambda launch if you have any doubts on this.

You always have to consider that you have to have a car that is drivable and delivers on the performance expectations of the customer. Why would you buy an SS if it really wasn't that much more of a performance car over the super impressive V6? Now if you can get all of todays performance and improve FE (EPS does that) that's awesome. It's just hard to do.

As for electric A/C, run the numbers and see how much electric power would be required, how much bigger a battery you might need and how much bigger an alternator would be required. In the end, EPS is a benefit over Hydraulic. And BMW (maybe you didn't know this) doesn't allow the alternator to charge the battery until absolutely necessary to legally game the EPA Cycle. So engine load can be and is often a big deal. But electric A/C needs power as well and it's not free. So from a cost benefit, mass benefit, is it still a viable solution? The Volt has a huge battery to store this energy. And using the electric heat or A/C has an effect on the range and it can be a big effect depending on if it's very hot or very cold.

And yes, air conditioning is considered in the EPA Schedule.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

Now if you truly want to focus on the highway number, then you have to focus on aerodynamics. That plays one of the if not the biggest part in highway FE. So you can do things like the Cruze ECO for aero (underbody shielding, radiator close out, lightweighting (another famous Camaro5 topic) and gearing to achieve about a 10% or so improvment. Those that I know and trust have driven the ECO and are quite happy with the drivability. The slightly lower mass offsets the gearing changes and makes a very pleasant car. All this using the same 1.4T engine. So you could do some things here as well, but in the end it's CdA, not Cd. And the Camaro is simply a big car. Low rolling resistance tires help too, but that's a direct trade off of handling and braking.
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:56 AM   #75
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I'd agree with most of what you said, Pill.

I think your fuel economy assumptions are a little aggressive/hopeful, and none of us know if GM's been working on a performance-oriented 3.6L TT V6 in the basement (I'll bet my ZL1 they do...)...

Still, good overview!

The best thing about the Gen V V8...is that although you'll probably see its application shrink slightly thanks to better V6s and increasing fuel economy/emissions standards...it'll hardly disappear. Trucks are a very big part of GM's portfolio. As is the Corvette, and Camaro. So long as those three factors exist -- there will be a Small Block Chevy available to be shoehorned into any vehicle they think appropriate.
Let's also not forget the huge crate engine selection available at every Chevy dealership's parts department. For those of us not wanting to keep our stock powertrains, we have the choice of dropping anything we want under the hood. Place your stock engine on eBay or Craigslist and throw a 572 in there.
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