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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 03-06-2011, 12:00 PM   #76
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What everybody has to remember this is a mass produced car thus it has to preform like a mass produced car. It has to be able to handle every day driving. These cars are not built like a Viper or Vette for a reason. Speculation is nice and all but in reality there only going to go so far.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:10 PM   #77
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Let's also not forget the huge crate engine selection available at every Chevy dealership's parts department. For those of us not wanting to keep our stock powertrains, we have the choice of dropping anything we want under the hood. Place your stock engine on eBay or Craigslist and throw a 572 in there.
GM has a phenomenal range of crate engines!

They use a different computer interface specifically so they cannot plug into the OE ECM. That isn't a problem. It is an opportunity to upgrade you dash to AutoMeter gauges
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #78
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Pill, the improvements you suggest are all directionally correct, however, they don't add up to 4 mpg on an LS3. The only thing the L99 doesn't have is DI and EPS, and those don't add up to 4 mpg (unless you are willing to take less performance)and if you are asking for AFM on a manual that's a whole different set of challenges. That's why there is an L99 in the first place. And any changes to the cylinder and combustion chamber are miniscule refinements on years and years of practice in this area, not giant leaps. This is a daily battle for tenths and tenths of tenths.

But I love the optimism

What you haven't covered is a more aggressive FE oriented calibration. Early torque converter lock up, much more aggressive decel fuel cut off. Earlier shifting. For the most part that is already done, but you could go further. But if you simply calibrate the car to "force" FE, then you will PO customers. Refer to the original Lambda launch if you have any doubts on this.

You always have to consider that you have to have a car that is drivable and delivers on the performance expectations of the customer. Why would you buy an SS if it really wasn't that much more of a performance car over the super impressive V6? Now if you can get all of todays performance and improve FE (EPS does that) that's awesome. It's just hard to do.

As for electric A/C, run the numbers and see how much electric power would be required, how much bigger a battery you might need and how much bigger an alternator would be required. In the end, EPS is a benefit over Hydraulic. And BMW (maybe you didn't know this) doesn't allow the alternator to charge the battery until absolutely necessary to legally game the EPA Cycle. So engine load can be and is often a big deal. But electric A/C needs power as well and it's not free. So from a cost benefit, mass benefit, is it still a viable solution? The Volt has a huge battery to store this energy. And using the electric heat or A/C has an effect on the range and it can be a big effect depending on if it's very hot or very cold.

And yes, air conditioning is considered in the EPA Schedule.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

Now if you truly want to focus on the highway number, then you have to focus on aerodynamics. That plays one of the if not the biggest part in highway FE. So you can do things like the Cruze ECO for aero (underbody shielding, radiator close out, lightweighting (another famous Camaro5 topic) and gearing to achieve about a 10% or so improvment. Those that I know and trust have driven the ECO and are quite happy with the drivability. The slightly lower mass offsets the gearing changes and makes a very pleasant car. All this using the same 1.4T engine. So you could do some things here as well, but in the end it's CdA, not Cd. And the Camaro is simply a big car. Low rolling resistance tires help too, but that's a direct trade off of handling and braking.
You are a wealth of information and expertise, Number 3. Truly an inspiration.

I'm curious, Jim...and if you can't answer, I understand...

Do you suppose the Gen V V8s will be considered revolutionary or evolutionary by the talking heads? I'm looking forward to clarification from the company at some point...but "advanced combustion system design" has me drooling a little.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:11 PM   #79
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You are a wealth of information and expertise, Number 3. Truly an inspiration.

I'm curious, Jim...and if you can't answer, I understand...

Do you suppose the Gen V V8s will be considered revolutionary or evolutionary by the talking heads? I'm looking forward to clarification from the company at some point...but "advanced combustion system design" has me drooling a little.
What Gen V V8s?


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Old 03-06-2011, 02:21 PM   #80
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As for electric A/C, run the numbers and see how much electric power would be required, how much bigger a battery you might need and how much bigger an alternator would be required. In the end, EPS is a benefit over Hydraulic. And BMW (maybe you didn't know this) doesn't allow the alternator to charge the battery until absolutely necessary to legally game the EPA Cycle. So engine load can be and is often a big deal. But electric A/C needs power as well and it's not free. So from a cost benefit, mass benefit, is it still a viable solution? The Volt has a huge battery to store this energy. And using the electric heat or A/C has an effect on the range and it can be a big effect depending on if it's very hot or very cold.

And yes, air conditioning is considered in the EPA Schedule.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
I had heard that the EPA figured A/C usage into the final figures but didn't know the duration of the test. The duration is the same as high speed driving is and is simulated at 95 degree outside temperature. There should be no reason that test should be figured into the finale rating and judging from the curves, it is killing the rating.

Off topic: I view A/C as a big problem even more since the EPA began testing. We started doing figures on a EAC mid-2010 and based on the ridiculous current AC BTU's autos use now (10k-20k)the size of the alternator needs to be well over 200 amps and a capacitor is needed but its work in progress... There was a news paper article on it in Illinois but I never received a scan of the clipping, it was suppose to be called Mobile Central Air... Pam Schmalenberg should have written the article...

I also have a "Cool Air" System on paper, it works from exhaust gases like a turbo, doing the pressurizing and heating but it already has theoretical drawbacks (no clutch based disengagement). Both of my arguments are based on the fact that the traditional automotive A/C unit can cool a 1500sq ft home, there is no need for that so reducing the output would be in order. If I base either of my systems off a 5000 BTU standard, the EAC can be done with a current battery and a 125 amp alternator at 14-15 volts... The "Cool Air" Turbo needs some sort of disengagement but I am out of ideas... for now...

Back on topic:
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:22 PM   #81
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What Gen V V8s?
Boooooo!!!!
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:42 PM   #82
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What Gen V V8s?


These: http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...pr/0427_plants

I wouldn't have asked if they were publicly known.



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Both of my arguments are based on the fact that the traditional automotive A/C unit can cool a 1500sq ft home, there is no need for that so reducing the output would be in order.
But are houses rolling greenhouses on hot pavement...or parked super-heated ovens requiring instant-cool down when the driver gets out of work in the afternoon? A huge drawback of drawing comparisons between the automotive industry and any other industry is that there are very few things they share in common with anything else...

Agreed, though...back on topic. The still-non-existent Z28...
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:24 PM   #83
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True and I think GM would be better off coming out with a different car, I mean having 2-3 different camaros I dont know guess its cheaper for them. But Camaro isnt mustang where it can release 50 million different brands.
it's just another trim level (think of it as saleable marketing), much simpler and less expensive than another car.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:27 PM   #84
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Peak power can be ignored, its the curve and freeing up some RPM's that a track star is interested in. I still like the Z51 package for suspension... You don't need to widen the tires, if you don't stagger the wheel/tire size you can eliminate oversteer. Oversteer mostly comes from weight and an oversized rear tire. If this is a track car, it is better to offer 275/40-19's all the way around so the driver/team can rotate the tires and save money. You just have to watch for snap understeer, but the ability to rotate the car will improve with running a 275/40-19 all the way around (and weight/rotational mass)..


Doesn't a larger rear tire create understeer?
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:39 PM   #85
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Doesn't a larger rear tire create understeer?
In a 5th Gen, YES. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:43 PM   #86
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Aren't there many other factors? Including but not limited to the size of the front tire, the stiffness ratio of the sway bars, shock/spring rates?
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:40 PM   #87
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Xa coilovers are lighter than OE assemblies but the Supercar remotes reservoirs are about the same.

As long as we are speculating about what could be a Z28... On Leno's Garage his video says the Z28 will be a twin turbo direct injection six.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras...aro-sema-2009/

Would there be a weight reduction with the Leno setup?

How much less?
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:07 PM   #88
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Aren't there many other factors? Including but not limited to the size of the front tire, the stiffness ratio of the sway bars, shock/spring rates?
You can alter the dynamics of a vehicle many ways, but grip is grip. The more grip you have the better a car will handle. Wider is better except in the rain or snow. That isn't the question or challenge. Fitting the grip into a package is where the challenge is.

Selling a car is a package deal. The style takes priority over function. Muscle cars have a Muscle Car Rake. Muscle Cars have Larger rear Wheels. Look at the success we have had with our square track, wheel and tire setup with droopy rear ends.




If you check out what is at the track at NASA and SCCA for production vehicles on the track you'll see a lot of square setups. Why does a car push? The front has lost traction or the rear has more traction? Did the chicken or the egg come first? The more grip the front wheels have the less push a car will have. That is why all the elements of setup you mention are important. They all work better with more grip up front. We didn't invent this. We use it on street cars because it works. if Pedders were to do a Vette, you can expect we will try to fit more rubber on the front end. Not less in the rear. More in the front.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:00 PM   #89
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Doesn't a larger rear tire create understeer?
EDIT: Whoops I meant understeer, sorry bud. Thanks for catching that. It depends on the front tire size vs. the rear and it also depends on where the under steer happens (turn in? mid corner? exit?). Oversized tires with throttle will usually push the front end unless it is staggered close. The Camaro uses 20" tires in front so right off the bat it is a nightmare but if snap under steer happens and you spin/slide, you can just let off the throttle and regain traction. A single size all around will have you sawing at the wheel. I haven't heard of any snap oversteer in the Camaro though...

Each characteristic in each car is different but a change of wheel/tire combo can fix stock issues... A 285-20" and 305-20" with the weight will under steer.. Weight could be heating your fronts up faster than the back and could also be bad

Most serious road racers will only stagger one size tire (say 275-285) at 1/2 an inch if they have to.. but an inch isn't out of the question... But again, road racers like to rotate tires and save money..

Edit: Both the Saleen and Camaro pictured above this post runs 305's all the way around which is awesome...

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Old 03-06-2011, 09:04 PM   #90
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You can alter the dynamics of a vehicle many ways, but grip is grip. The more grip you have the better a car will handle. Wider is better except in the rain or snow. That isn't the question or challenge. Fitting the grip into a package is where the challenge is.

Selling a car is a package deal. The style takes priority over function. Muscle cars have a Muscle Car Rake. Muscle Cars have Larger rear Wheels. Look at the success we have had with our square track, wheel and tire setup with droopy rear ends.




If you check out what is at the track at NASA and SCCA for production vehicles on the track you'll see a lot of square setups. Why does a car push? The front has lost traction or the rear has more traction? Did the chicken or the egg come first? The more grip the front wheels have the less push a car will have. That is why all the elements of setup you mention are important. They all work better with more grip up front. We didn't invent this. We use it on street cars because it works. if Pedders were to do a Vette, you can expect we will try to fit more rubber on the front end. Not less in the rear. More in the front.
I am gonna give your site a look in 3 hours, Steeda gave me a decent quote for a non-coil over Tokico package. Im interested in your suspension...

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Old 03-06-2011, 09:41 PM   #91
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Won't a thicker rear bar give more balance to a staggered set up?
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:05 PM   #92
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Won't a thicker rear bar give more balance to a staggered set up?
It should help. But by doing that, you're possibly compromising rear grip...it's somewhat counter-productive. Ideally, you'd want to increase front grip. I don't know how stiff the front bar is...but easing that up could help, but then you get increased body roll...

...Now I see what you're talking about, Pete...needed to think it out...
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:08 PM   #93
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I am gonna give your site a look in 3 hours, Steeda gave me a decent quote for a non-coil over Tokico package. Im interested in your suspension...
Our Mustang parts are AWESOME, but Mustang section of our website is terrible. Please call me with any questions you may have. 248.522.8021. As you are overseas, we can schedule a call at your convenience if you PM or email me your number and preferred time.

PGB@PeddersUSA.com
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:12 PM   #94
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Won't a thicker rear bar give more balance to a staggered set up?
Yes, it will. With the 5th gen rear suspension geometry combined with other vehicle factors we end up with a monster strong 32mm bar rear and 27mm bar front. Even with our squared setup we still like the 32mm rear bar. Having typed that, if you can fit a 305/30/19 in the rear and the front with no rubbing why not go square?
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:58 AM   #95
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Our Mustang parts are AWESOME, but Mustang section of our website is terrible. Please call me with any questions you may have. 248.522.8021. As you are overseas, we can schedule a call at your convenience if you PM or email me your number and preferred time.

PGB@PeddersUSA.com

Email sent, I can call you free of charge if you don't want to pay long distance...
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:15 AM   #96
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Full disclosure on Camaro5, email I sent to Pedders

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Sir,
I am interested in your suspension and have heard many good things about the company. I currently have a 2011 5.0 Mustang GT, although the car handles great, I have intentions on changing the factory setup for competition. The factory ride height needs to come down and I am looking into downsizing the wheels to 18x9's Enkei PF01 +35mm offsets with 275/40-18's boxed. I need to lower the ride height at least an inch fr, 1" 1/4 rr. I have talked to Frank Stoddard at Steeda about a coil over system but was quoted for the Tokico shocks and Steeda Sports. I am interested in the coil over system, however, based on the quick overview on your site, the magnitude of the upgrades you provide may disqualify me from the class I intend on running. I am keeping the GT N/A and do not plan on any engine/exhaust modifications until next season and I know the stock motor cannot push the car, at its current weight and power, to the limits of your suspension. I still need brakes, pads, wheels and comp tires for this season but desperately need to upgrade the suspension...

I need to watch my weight, I can only eliminate 130lbs from the stock curb. I have two questions, Is there a fixed shock/spring package you offer? and... How much weight does the Justice package add or lose?

I have a German number and a Pittsburgh number via Magic Jack

Pittsburgh: 412-XXX-XXXX
Germany: 0151-5250-1238
Bottom line, this is a SERIOUS upgrade. Without proper tires and brakes, tying my chassis together would either A.) Send me skipping like a stone on water through the turns without good rubber... or B.) Turn my Brembo's into metal shavings...

And honestly, its too much suspension for the power I am putting out... This is GT4 suspension!!!

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Old 03-07-2011, 10:01 AM   #97
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If you go with it, you're gonna LOVE Pete's stuff.

Even if I get the ZL1...chances are high I do the bushing/roll bar upgrade shortly after purchase to tighten things up...
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:13 AM   #98
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Pete,
What if any is the difference between the 2 Pedders Camaros beside the Xa coilovers Vs. Supercar coilovers?

Thanks!
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:27 AM   #99
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Full disclosure on Camaro5, email I sent to Pedders

Bottom line, this is a SERIOUS upgrade. Without proper tires and brakes, tying my chassis together would either A.) Send me skipping like a stone on water through the turns without good rubber... or B.) Turn my Brembo's into metal shavings...

And honestly, its too much suspension for the power I am putting out... This is GT4 suspension!!!
I have you PM and will call today.
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:33 AM   #100
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Pete,
What if any is the difference between the 2 Pedders Camaros beside the Xa coilovers Vs. Supercar coilovers?

Thanks!
Version I: Full Suspension with Xa coilovers, 305/30/19 Bridgestone RE-11s on Forgeline 19x10s all around, stock brakes with Colbalt Friction XR1 front and XR3 rear pads, ProCharger, fluid coolers

Version II: Full Suspension with Supercar coilovers, 305/30/19 Bridgestone RE-11s on Forgeline 19x10s all around, CTS-V brakes with Colbalt Friction XR1 front and XR2 rear pads, ProCharger, fluid coolers, Stage II intercooler, wrapped headers, plenum insulation removed, MAF moved to the intercooler.

Running laps, heat soak results in the computer pulling out timing and RWHP loss. We did everything we could with our setup to reduce RWHP loss on version two. It helped a bit. We found two seconds in the Supercars and brakes.
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