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Old 03-03-2011, 01:13 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.
There is a happy medium with the casted/flow formed wheels that Enkei and OZ offer. They are quite durable, light weight and half the price of forged wheels. Alot of weight can be lost just by down sizing from the 20's, to 19's alone.

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Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.
Go all cloth race buckets and maybe a rear seat delete option.

Quote:
I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.
Stock springs and shocks are usually pretty light, its hard to lose weight here with performance suspension but weight gain can be mitigated with lightweight control arms, sways and links.

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I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.
I think EPAS is very close to the old school PS, But it's a great addition...

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LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.
I think the LS3 weighs less at 418lbs and is cheaper. This is the same predicament Ford is in with the 5.0 and the 5.4. The 5.4, just like the LS7 is only used in a very limited applications. Upgrading an LS3 would cost less, weigh less and produce enough power to make the LS7 obsolete.. So why not save some money...

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Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.
Quote:
Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.
As far as gearing, you know what to do, and I think an lighter valve train and EPAS could easily avoid a GG tax.. Look into transmissions, you can save some weight by moving to a Getrag (40lbs) and have 5 useful gears instead of just 4..

Fuel tank: Good idea, research the typical classes that this type of vehicle would run in and find the duration of each race... Adjust the fuel tank accordingly, if its a 1 or 2 hour race, they are going to have to use a fuel cell anyway and relocate the fuel door for pit stops.

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Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)
Wow!!!

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Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)
Getting expensive now...

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Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)
Outta my price range but really cool...


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If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.
Peak power can be ignored, its the curve and freeing up some RPM's that a track star is interested in. I still like the Z51 package for suspension... You don't need to widen the tires, if you don't stagger the wheel/tire size you can eliminate oversteer. Oversteer (correction: Under steer) mostly comes from weight and an oversized rear tire. If this is a track car, it is better to offer 275/40-19's all the way around so the driver/team can rotate the tires and save money. You just have to watch for snap understeer, but the ability to rotate the car will improve with running a 275/40-19 all the way around (and weight/rotational mass)..

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Old 03-03-2011, 01:32 PM   #58
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With 275/40 (or 35's)-19's you can run a 19x9" wheel all around. Weight savings, using a casted/flow formed wheel over the stock casted 20's could save you almost 10lbs in the wheels alone. The weight from the tires, front to rear, wouldn't increase weight at all.. In fact, depending on the tire (PS2, P-Zero are the lightest) you could acually save a pound or two in rubber per wheel... Its the sidewall that adds weight more that tread.. You could come out with weight savings of 40+lbs in wheels and tires. If the weight of the vehicle drops below 3800lbs, look into a 14" front, 13" rear disc (maybe smaller).. weight saved again...
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:18 PM   #59
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Interesting take on the situation...Here's my opinion, for what its worth...

The CTS is getting bigger.
The CTS will be on a long-wheelbase version of the Alpha chassis.
The CTS will still harbor a 'V' series model...
...therefore the CTS will still need a lot of freakin' power to keep it competitive.
The ZR1 Corvette will also continue in the next generation...

I think the chances of a forced-induction, moderate-to-high displacement Gen V smallblock is high, because the need for that sort of power will be there.

And if they felt like it...I think they could justify using this theoretical engine in a smaller 6thgen Camaro for a ZL1-on-steroids.
I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:28 PM   #60
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I agree whole heartedly with you Jedi. I want to ad that based on what we know about the whole Z28 idea and project with the Gen 5 body and what GM went through to get where we are now, I feel that the ZL-1 became the fruition of the Z28 idea. It morphed into the ZL-1 because of the time lag and the competitions unobstructed product advancement. I think it was a stroke of luck, fate, timing, and genious. It will be the fastest factory produced straight line and top end Camaro of all time IMHO. That's what I am after. I wanted the Z28 emblem on it too, I wanted this rumored in testing and in development Camaro we all followed over the past couple of years to be that moniker. I am an old Z28 guy from way back. However, as every day passes and the more I think about the ZL-1 in it's entirety I know that it's something unique and special. It's everything I always wanted, and then some! And this ZL-1 moniker will never come back again. The Z28 will come back, and will probably be the niche road course performer that it is speculated to be. Hey, no one ever said you can only fall in love once. And Shakespear was right about whats in a name. But I am truely in love with the ZL-1. And new romances are always exciting.
Like you, I believe that GM had full intentions at one time to name the coming ZL1 a 'Z28' and over time things changed. Ed Welburn came out along time ago and said that the Z28 would be returning. As time continued with the Z28 project it evolved into the ZL1 project. Like you, I am more sympathetic towards the name Z28 because it was a car that I grew up with. But with everything that Chevy did with the ZL1 and we still do not know everything that is in the package, it is a phenomenal car. The name Z28 would have been nice, but I see why they chose ZL1 and I can live with that name very easily. I just need to convince them that it needs the rear brake vents from the Jay Leno car and a Marina Blue paint job. Thanks for the nice words.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.

I dont see why not. I realize its more expensive, but this also isnt a "plain" SS so to speak. For one it takes no more space than the LS3, except for the dry sump tank. And to the untrained eye it looks identical. Also, GM as it, why not use it? Its just another weapon in the arsenal. If Ford wants to step it up, I say we one-up them. Who says we cant have the best of both worlds? Displacement and DI.
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:10 PM   #62
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LS7 is not a big block.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:57 PM   #63
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A few random thoughts.

1. The SSX is a rough draft of what GM envisions the Z/28 to be.
2. If GM didn't intend to build a Z/28 in addition to the ZL1, the ZL1 would have been named Z/28.
3. Number 3 mentions that a tweaked LS3 (that's what they show to be in the SSX by the way) would render the LS7 obsolete. As far as I've heard the LS7 is being discontinued to begin with so that's not a big deal.
4. Number 3 mentions WAY too many real world options for us not to believe the GM engineers have not spent time developing a Z/28 if only in CAD.
5. If GM had not filed for bankruptcy as a result of the financial meltdown we would already have a Z/28.
6. If we don't see a Z/28 as a road worthy production intent vehicle on the 5th gen platform, we will definitely see one in the next gen.
7. Having a Z/28 fit in between the SS and ZL1 makes perfect sense. The Camaro sells in much higher volumes than the Corvette and the Corvette is available in the following trims, LT, Grand Sport, Z06 and ZR1.

I really wanted to buy a 2010 Camaro but it didn't work out for a daily driver (I have a wife and three kids). I did however do the next best thing to help see future generations and trim levels of Camaros. I bought a 2010 Malibu. The better GM does as a corporation, the more we will see from them.

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Old 03-03-2011, 09:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a fact-less observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
Xa coilovers are lighter than OE assemblies but the Supercar remotes reservoirs are about the same.

As long as we are speculating about what could be a Z28... On Leno's Garage his video says the Z28 will be a twin turbo direct injection six.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras...aro-sema-2009/

Would there be a weight reduction with the Leno setup?
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:54 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by GearBangr View Post
I dont see why not. I realize its more expensive, but this also isnt a "plain" SS so to speak. For one it takes no more space than the LS3, except for the dry sump tank. And to the untrained eye it looks identical. Also, GM as it, why not use it? Its just another weapon in the arsenal. If Ford wants to step it up, I say we one-up them. Who says we cant have the best of both worlds? Displacement and DI.
Because it would add $8,000-$10,000 to the price of the car before anything else is touched.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:53 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I wish I had the technical education to give an informed opinion, but I do not. My opinion comes strictly from a gut feeling and trying to read the trends the automotive industry is going. I think with the use of smaller displacement DI engines, they will go more with turbos than superchargers. With the CAFE requirements coming on so quick making the auto makers go smaller and lighter, turbos would be a lighter forced induction setup than a S/C. Unless some of the S/C makers are able to develop newer light weight/low mass units that are able to make the same power that the current units make.

Look at the LS7 engine. A powerful hand built 7 liter big block with no home other than the Z06 that will most likely get replaced with a smaller engine in the next Corvette generation. Everyone would like an LS7 for the coming Z28 track star but in reality there is really not much of a chance of that happening simply because of the engine cost. The current Corvette race cars with their direct injection engines make great HP and the billion dollars that GM spent to upgrade their engine plants show the most likely path that GM will take in the future.
Agreed, again to a point. Turbos are only moderately lighter than superchargers once you factor in all the plumbing...and for a V8 application, you'd almost certainly need twin-turbochargers. The Corvette racer does make great power, but it probably won't be enough for a larger (probably similar weight) CTS-V later in the decade...

Just remember back to when they transfered over to the LS-series engines...today's story started with a naturally-aspirated, 350hp 5.7L V8....
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:32 PM   #67
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I think GM will lower the displacement, add direct injection and other (VVT) items to make the same power.

Turbos fail. Look at the EcoLoser Taurus SHO. Same power as a V8!! Yeah, and the same freaking fuel mileage, with no OMG low-end torque.

They are thinking about using AFM across the board, but they better refine it a lot, because it's an intrusive POS now.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:26 PM   #68
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GM is, and has been a follower and not a leader in the Pony car market.

I say this because they are usually reactive instead of proactive when it comes to innovation and thrusting out new models.

But, when Camaro responds to a Mustang bite, it usually responds with a hammer. I wish they WOULD bring out something that you see FORD for a change go out and buy a ZL1 or Z28 or whatever to go comparison testing their new model. But so far we've only seen that with the ZL1 testing.

I'm tired of the answers following the question. For once I'd like to see GM get out in front. FAR in front.

Other than that, the "car wars" are great. In the end we all win, whichever brand we prefer.

But that article...PURE speculation. All of it. Only GM knows for sure.

True and I think GM would be better off coming out with a different car, I mean having 2-3 different camaros I dont know guess its cheaper for them. But Camaro isnt mustang where it can release 50 million different brands.
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Old 03-05-2011, 06:47 PM   #69
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Agreed, again to a point. Turbos are only moderately lighter than superchargers once you factor in all the plumbing...and for a V8 application, you'd almost certainly need twin-turbochargers. The Corvette racer does make great power, but it probably won't be enough for a larger (probably similar weight) CTS-V later in the decade...

Just remember back to when they transfered over to the LS-series engines...today's story started with a naturally-aspirated, 350hp 5.7L V8....
With the Jay Leno TT V6 making 425HP, the Alpha chassis Z28 could go this route. I just do not see larger displacement V8's with S/C induction for many more years from the factory.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #70
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With the Jay Leno TT V6 making 425HP, the Alpha chassis Z28 could go this route. I just do not see larger displacement V8's with S/C induction for many more years from the factory.
We'll see. That's really all I can say at this point - we don't know anything, yet.

Consider, though...when hp rises...TTV6s don't offer very much at all over a DI V8.
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