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Old 02-10-2009, 09:45 PM   #1
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power ratings?

Hello everyone. Just a bit curious about the HP ratings on this LS3. I've seen 430 and 426, not sure which is acurate. But my question is, back in the early days many of these engines were "underrated", in some cases very underrated because of insurance purposes or whatever. Is it believed that the LS3 may also possess more than the advertised HP? Do car companies still do that?
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:47 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by mp11 View Post
Hello everyone. Just a bit curious about the HP ratings on this LS3. I've seen 430 and 426, not sure which is acurate. But my question is, back in the early days many of these engines were "underrated", in some cases very underrated because of insurance purposes or whatever. Is it believed that the LS3 may also possess more than the advertised HP? Do car companies still do that?
It's officially 426hp. and yes it might be underrated.But we still don't know that
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:04 PM   #3
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by mp11 View Post
Hello everyone. Just a bit curious about the HP ratings on this LS3. I've seen 430 and 426, not sure which is acurate. But my question is, back in the early days many of these engines were "underrated", in some cases very underrated because of insurance purposes or whatever. Is it believed that the LS3 may also possess more than the advertised HP? Do car companies still do that?
With the SAE certification, it is impossible to "underrate" an engine. The only way is if the manufacturer chooses not to SAE Certify their engine (4.6 3v in the Mustang, 6.1 Hemi, etc.).

The LS3 and it's variances (GXP, Corvette, Camaro, etc.) are all SAE Certified.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:12 PM   #5
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The LS3 in the vette is rated 430 and 436. All other applications will most likely be lower. Example the Camaro is rated at 426.

Tom

BTW the 436 rating is with the optional Z06 exhaust.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:33 PM   #6
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The LS3 in the vette is rated 430 and 436. All other applications will most likely be lower. Example the Camaro is rated at 426.

Tom

BTW the 436 rating is with the optional Z06 exhaust.
It's not a Z06 exhaust. It has bypass valves like the Z06, but it is 2.5", the Z06 is a 3".

As stated earlier, the LS3 is SAE certified and that would make it impossible to underrate.
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:13 PM   #7
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With the SAE certification, it is impossible to "underrate" an engine. The only way is if the manufacturer chooses not to SAE Certify their engine (4.6 3v in the Mustang, 6.1 Hemi, etc.).

The LS3 and it's variances (GXP, Corvette, Camaro, etc.) are all SAE Certified.
You don't understand engineers very well, do you? They say that the fastest way to get something done is to tell an engineer its impossible. Its a game for both sides. The SAE creates the rule book to even out the playing field. But like any other rulebook, its a paperback not chiseled in stone. There are ways to bend it which ever way you want. The manufacturers will try and get around the test procedure (in many cases, they help to write the procedure) and engines will be under rated (or over rated as the case may be). Then a new procedure will be created and the cycle will continue.

For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:

1. Those engines were unsually strong
2. They have very low drive line losses
3. They're under rated.

I'm leaning towards #3 because if you assume the standard 15% driveline loss from the 'regular' versions (390 hp Hemi, 436 hp LS3) you get . . . 332 and 371 which within error margin of what they dyno'd at.
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:18 PM   #8
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You don't understand engineers very well, do you? They say that the fastest way to get something done is to tell an engineer its impossible. Its a game for both sides. The SAE creates the rule book to even out the playing field. But like any other rulebook, its a paperback not chiseled in stone. There are ways to bend it which ever way you want. The manufacturers will try and get around the test procedure (in many cases, they help to write the procedure) and engines will be under rated (or over rated as the case may be). Then a new procedure will be created and the cycle will continue.

For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:

1. Those engines were unsually strong
2. They have very low drive line losses
3. They're under rated.

I'm leaning towards #3 because if you assume the standard 15% driveline loss from the 'regular' versions (390 hp Hemi, 436 hp LS3) you get . . . 332 and 371 which within error margin of what they dyno'd at.
10.83%
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:47 PM   #9
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10.83%
yes . . .
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
. . .
For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:
. . .
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:51 PM   #10
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i heard the gtr is underrated at 480 hp, i heard its really 500 plus hp
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:08 PM   #11
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i heard the gtr is underrated at 480 hp, i heard its really 500 plus hp
it could be. it's not an SAE certified engine.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:36 PM   #12
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i heard the gtr is underrated at 480 hp, i heard its really 500 plus hp
Too bad no one said this to the GTR's tranny. LoL
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:39 PM   #13
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Too bad no one said this to the GTR's tranny. LoL
GTR: Get Transmission Replaced
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:47 PM   #14
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GTR: Get Transmission Replaced
this is why i hate all this paddle shift, dual clutch, semi-manual crap.



if nissan just put in three pedals than they would of never had this problem.

Last edited by 1982camaro; 02-13-2009 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:06 AM   #15
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You don't understand engineers very well, do you? They say that the fastest way to get something done is to tell an engineer its impossible. Its a game for both sides. The SAE creates the rule book to even out the playing field. But like any other rulebook, its a paperback not chiseled in stone. There are ways to bend it which ever way you want. The manufacturers will try and get around the test procedure (in many cases, they help to write the procedure) and engines will be under rated (or over rated as the case may be). Then a new procedure will be created and the cycle will continue.

For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:

1. Those engines were unsually strong
2. They have very low drive line losses
3. They're under rated.

I'm leaning towards #3 because if you assume the standard 15% driveline loss from the 'regular' versions (390 hp Hemi, 436 hp LS3) you get . . . 332 and 371 which within error margin of what they dyno'd at.
Are you even a member at SAE? have you even checked out the site or read up the complete process and tolerances the manufacturers must meet? Based on your answer, it's obvious you haven't.

Your assuming 15% which is outrageously high. MAYBE for a modern automatic. The typical manual transmission car will lose ~11-13%. Some as low as 10% with the right set up.

I will agree, engines can be underrated. They just can't be underrated and SAE Certified at the same time.

BTW, according to SAE.org, the hemi is not SAE Certified.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:19 AM   #16
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GTR: Get Transmission Replaced
No sh1t! I just saw this in another thread and it all became clear. LoL
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:13 PM   #17
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Are you even a member at SAE? have you even checked out the site or read up the complete process and tolerances the manufacturers must meet? Based on your answer, it's obvious you haven't.

Your assuming 15% which is outrageously high. MAYBE for a modern automatic. The typical manual transmission car will lose ~11-13%. Some as low as 10% with the right set up.

I will agree, engines can be underrated. They just can't be underrated and SAE Certified at the same time.

BTW, according to SAE.org, the hemi is not SAE Certified.
Actually, I have a membership that expires March 31
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:51 PM   #18
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i heard the gtr is underrated at 480 hp, i heard its really 500 plus hp
Beyond not being SAE rated. they are individually cast and hand built making each one its own unique system....

They only averaged that ratings... The one that did the Nurburgring lap was dyno'd at 515HP... the one Motor Trend god was dyno'd at 550HP...

Some I've seen out at 460HP... so yeah... its all different.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:13 PM   #19
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I'll go with #4 which is .... different dynos and different readings .. he could take that same G8 to another dyno and dyno lower .. or higher ... the good thing is that he got a baseline and can use that dyno to attempt to figure out gains of his mods ...

I do believe that there will be a certain % error in ratings .. Even if the LS3 in the G8 was certified at 415hp .. I think % error will have this rating fluctuate as well ..

I also do believe that most manual drivetrains will see around a 12% loss these days and a little higher for Automatics ..

Crowley


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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
You don't understand engineers very well, do you? They say that the fastest way to get something done is to tell an engineer its impossible. Its a game for both sides. The SAE creates the rule book to even out the playing field. But like any other rulebook, its a paperback not chiseled in stone. There are ways to bend it which ever way you want. The manufacturers will try and get around the test procedure (in many cases, they help to write the procedure) and engines will be under rated (or over rated as the case may be). Then a new procedure will be created and the cycle will continue.

For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:

1. Those engines were unsually strong
2. They have very low drive line losses
3. They're under rated.

I'm leaning towards #3 because if you assume the standard 15% driveline loss from the 'regular' versions (390 hp Hemi, 436 hp LS3) you get . . . 332 and 371 which within error margin of what they dyno'd at.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
You don't understand engineers very well, do you? They say that the fastest way to get something done is to tell an engineer its impossible. Its a game for both sides. The SAE creates the rule book to even out the playing field. But like any other rulebook, its a paperback not chiseled in stone. There are ways to bend it which ever way you want. The manufacturers will try and get around the test procedure (in many cases, they help to write the procedure) and engines will be under rated (or over rated as the case may be). Then a new procedure will be created and the cycle will continue.

For reference, the 5.7L hemi in the Challenger (370 crank hp rating) dynos at about 335 to the wheel. The LS3 in the G8 has dyno'd 370 to the wheel (415 crank rating). This is approximately a 10% driveline loss. One of three this is going on here:

1. Those engines were unsually strong
2. They have very low drive line losses
3. They're under rated.

I'm leaning towards #3 because if you assume the standard 15% driveline loss from the 'regular' versions (390 hp Hemi, 436 hp LS3) you get . . . 332 and 371 which within error margin of what they dyno'd at.
I remember reading the way GM used to get around certifications was to not referrence power at the power peak but lower. For example, I believe the ZL1 was rated by GM at 430 horse' at 5800 (for example) but it actually came closer to 500 at like 6500. I can't find the literature on-line (I think I have it in a Hot Rod article from back in the day, but it goes along what DG' said. I mean, the LS3 will make what GM certifies it to make at that RPM, but it could make more.

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Actually, I have a membership that expires March 31
You're a P.E.?
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:37 PM   #21
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I remember reading the way GM used to get around certifications was to not referrence power at the power peak but lower. For example, I believe the ZL1 was rated by GM at 430 horse' at 5800 (for example) but it actually came closer to 500 at like 6500. I can't find the literature on-line (I think I have it in a Hot Rod article from back in the day, but it goes along what DG' said. I mean, the LS3 will make what GM certifies it to make at that RPM, but it could make more.



You're a P.E.?
The SAE Certification process didn't start untill a few years ago (2006 I believe). That same dancing around and manipulating that worked before won't work anymore. Talk of rating at a specific/different RPM with the SAE Certification process is how rumors and wrong information is spread.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:54 PM   #22
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You're a P.E.?
Not yet, it is a student membership that I received for last year in order to compete in an SAE design challenge (mini Baja). But I do have membership to the Society of Automotive Engineers.

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The SAE Certification process didn't start untill a few years ago (2006 I believe). That same dancing around and manipulating that worked before won't work anymore. Talk of rating at a specific/different RPM with the SAE Certification process is how rumors and wrong information is spread.
GM was the first to adopt it in 2005, I believe the first engine they certified with it was the LS7.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:06 PM   #23
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The SAE Certification process didn't start untill a few years ago (2006 I believe). That same dancing around and manipulating that worked before won't work anymore. Talk of rating at a specific/different RPM with the SAE Certification process is how rumors and wrong information is spread.
I meant to add that, but do you know if they are completely tied to listing the highest output? I mean, like my post, where the ZL1 was stated as making power at a certain RPM, it really made more power at higher RPMs. I know that SAE didn't test like this back then, but do they now? I'm asking in all seriousness, not to be difficult

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Not yet, it is a student membership that I received for last year in order to compete in an SAE design challenge (mini Baja). But I do have membership to the Society of Automotive Engineers.

GM was the first to adopt it in 2005, I believe the first engine they certified with it was the LS7.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:28 PM   #24
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Not yet, it is a student membership that I received for last year in order to compete in an SAE design challenge (mini Baja). But I do have membership to the Society of Automotive Engineers.
I had one too. I was with the formula team, but that didn't last long as the whole program here is very disorganized and I ditched. Then I switched to a business major lol.

I think it still might be possible to get around a few things still to underrate the power, the thing we need to know is the real drive line efficiency.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:34 PM   #25
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I had one too. I was with the formula team, but that didn't last long as the whole program here is very disorganized and I ditched. Then I switched to a business major lol.

I think it still might be possible to get around a few things still to underrate the power, the thing we need to know is the real drive line efficiency.
if they want to underrate, the manufacturer just wouldn't certify the engine. it's as easy as that.
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