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Old 03-09-2011, 03:55 PM   #26
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So you reallllly think a car weighing 500 pounds more with a 60 HP deficit with a solid rear axle can beat a Z06 around any track?

I'm skeptical.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:10 PM   #27
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my projections for Camaro and Mustang until new models in 2014/2015:

Chevrolet:

LS/LT - 3.6L V6 (remains same except HP bumps until 6th Gen)
SS - 6.2L V8 (stays w/ HP bumps until 6th Gen than it gets C7 base engine)
Z28 - 6.2L V8 (same as Corvette Grand Sport w/ dry oil sump and HP bump)
ZL1 - 6.2L SC V8 (same, HP bumps until 6th Gen than it gets the new C7 Z06 engine)


Ford:

V6 - 3.7L V6 (remains same except HP bumps until new model V6)
GT - 5.0L V8 (remains same, gets HP bumps, will carry over to new model GT)
Boss 302 - 5.0L V8 (remains same, gets HP bumps, may appear in new GT)
GT500 - 5.4L SC V8 (stays w/ HP bumps until 2013 or 2014, new Mustang model gets SVT Cobra back instead of Shelby GT500 w/ 5.0L V8 that has some type of forced induction)


Competitors until 6th Gen camaro and new Mustang:

LS/LT vs V6 - (bread and butter models for both companies at bargain prices)

SS vs GT - (introductory performance models at reasonable prices)

Z28 vs Boss 302 - (stripped down, better handling/stiffer riding versions of SS and GT modles w/ higher performance parts, but truly meant for the road course)

ZL1 vs GT500 - (fastest and most prestigious models for both nameplates, supercar like performance at an affordable price, track stars that are more than capable on road courses too)
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:13 PM   #28
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So you reallllly think a car weighing 500 pounds more with a 60 HP deficit with a solid rear axle can beat a Z06 around any track?

I'm skeptical.

me too.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:13 PM   #29
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So you reallllly think a car weighing 500 pounds more with a 60 HP deficit with a solid rear axle can beat a Z06 around any track?

I'm skeptical.
I'm holding my breathe until we see what it runs at another track, or a longer track. Let's see what happens around the 'Ring... I'm not questioning what it runs, but if it only runs faster at one track - that's a little misleading... I guess I have to read the reviews when they're available, because something isn't adding up...
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:18 PM   #30
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I'm holding my breathe until we see what it runs at another track, or a longer track. Let's see what happens around the 'Ring... I'm not questioning what it runs, but if it only runs faster at one track - that's a little misleading... I guess I have to read the reviews when they're available, because something isn't adding up...
+1
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:32 PM   #31
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You can watch the Boss 302 race every month in Grand Am, they will eventually hit every track this year. Multimatic did help tune this car from the Multimatic car from last year... Kind of like On The Job Training... I think the Boss could take the GTR on the Streets of Willow because it is a slower track and limits top speed... I guess the Boss Laguna Seca is set to be at least a second faster than the Boss 302.

If the car performs at Laguna, I expect it to do just as good if not better on other US courses... The gap between the GT500 and Z06C was about 6 seconds but on Willow it was about 4 seconds. Laguna is a faster track as far as MPH go, Willow is much tighter where the Z06 lost 13mph average and the GT500 loses about 10mph. Thats where the time is made up... The GTR is faster than the Z06C at Willow but 3 seconds slower at LS...
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:43 PM   #32
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I'm holding my breathe until we see what it runs at another track, or a longer track. Let's see what happens around the 'Ring... I'm not questioning what it runs, but if it only runs faster at one track - that's a little misleading... I guess I have to read the reviews when they're available, because something isn't adding up...
The Boss will not do this good on a longer track where long straights and top speed is paramount, like Daytona...

Edit: I doesn't have to add up, in road racing there are far too many variables to calculate... The GTR beat the Z06 at Willow and it outweighed it by almost 800lbs... the Mustang should not be compared to a Corvette... It was made to compete with the M3 and it wins... by alot...

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Old 03-09-2011, 04:58 PM   #33
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Does anybody truly think Chevy is going to "step up their game" and create a Camaro of any variety that out-performs the Z06 Corvette? Not anytime soon.

Now, when the next generation Corvette comes out, and if it has even better performance than the C6 versions produced today (which one would expect), then the game might change.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Does anybody truly think Chevy is going to "step up their game" and create a Camaro of any variety that out-performs the Z06 Corvette? Not anytime soon.

Now, when the next generation Corvette comes out, and if it has even better performance than the C6 versions produced today (which one would expect), then the game might change.
Good point...
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:11 PM   #35
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So you reallllly think a car weighing 500 pounds more with a 60 HP deficit with a solid rear axle can beat a Z06 around any track?

I'm skeptical.
Well the numbers said it does and its an 06 ZO6 not current model. You work for GM and I would expect you to say something to that effect. Up the game or fall behind or did they lie, because then you could use that same argument over the number the ZO6 produced or even the ZL1 when they come out. The numbers don't lie it's a impressive car and Ford has seemed to have done their home work. 4 out of 5 cars I own are GM and never have owned a Ford, but will acknowledge the fact the Boss is a very impressive car.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:11 PM   #36
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So you reallllly think a car weighing 500 pounds more with a 60 HP deficit with a solid rear axle can beat a Z06 around any track?

I'm skeptical.
Add me to the club. The Boss is impressive.....but it's not that impressive. I can't quite comprehend the hype...

It's a Mustang with a modest power bump, retuned suspension, and manual-adjustable shocks......Woooooooooo...... Ford has done to the Mustang what people around here have been doing to their Camaros since it came out....Naturally, I'm biased to a factory package, and for that I give them credit, but

IMVHO....the Boss is as much a product of Ford's excellently persuasive PR and marketing people as it is a product of their performance division.

I've said it before and haven't wavered; Nurburgring times are, at best, purely entertainment because there is no governing body that oversees the runs. However -- it is one of a very few road courses that measure a cars entire potential with a myriad of long straights, moderate sweepers, and super-tight turns....Will most of us ever be able to race there? No....but I'd be curious to see that time...

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[The Mustang] was made to compete with the M3 and it wins... by alot...
No it wasn't.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Does anybody truly think Chevy is going to "step up their game" and create a Camaro of any variety that out-performs the Z06 Corvette? Not anytime soon.

Now, when the next generation Corvette comes out, and if it has even better performance than the C6 versions produced today (which one would expect), then the game might change.
No never. Unless they repeat 84 and the GN. There are more then a few that will look to the Mustang over the Vette for price and cost of ownership and will settle for a car that comes very close to the Vette with a better overall cost, if GM doesn't fill the gap.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:24 PM   #38
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No it wasn't.
Actually, that was the stated objective by Ford with the Boss 302.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Motor Company
For us, that meant a production Mustang that could top one of the world’s best – the 2010 BMW M3 – in lap times at Laguna Seca
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But today Ford’s not trying to beat the Camaro at the track in formal competition; instead they’ve targeted the Germans, specifically the 2010 BMW M3.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:26 PM   #39
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This specific Boss 302 was made to compete with the M3, It competes with the M3 in Grand Am and it was specifically built to embarrass BMW for less money... and it did... I don't care what happen to the Z06's track record, the Z06 was just in the way along with the GTR... Ford said what they were going to do and who they were going for... anyone that feels beat was not intentional, it was merely colladeral damage.

The Boss has the same live axle it uses in Grand Am, has hand adjustable shocks, has better rubber and a broader power curve... This is not a Z06 competitor, the Z06's current record is 1:37.40 with the Carbon package, thats 2.8 seconds ahead of the Boss... Everyone calm down...

Or... We can burn our GM shareholder certificates in the living room next to the window curtains!!!
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:32 PM   #40
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This specific Boss 302 was made to compete with the M3, It competes with the M3 in Grand Am and it was specifically built to embarrass BMW for less money... and it did... I don't care what happen to the Z06's track record, the Z06 was just in the way along with the GTR... Ford said what they were going to do and who they were going for... anyone that feels beat was not intentional, it was merely colladeral damage.

The Boss has the same live axle it uses in Grand Am, has hand adjustable shocks, has better rubber and a broader power curve... This is not a Z06 competitor, the Z06's current record is 1:37.40 with the Carbon package, thats 2.8 seconds ahead of the Boss... Everyone calm down...
I'm more then clam. I find it funny that people argue about the numbers give the stang some credit its a great car and that comes from someone who is almost a GM fan-boy.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:32 PM   #41
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This specific Boss 302 was made to compete with the M3, It competes with the M3 in Grand Am and it was specifically built to embarrass BMW for less money... and it did... I don't care what happen to the Z06's track record, the Z06 was just in the way along with the GTR... Ford said what they were going to do and who they were going for... anyone that feels beat was not intentional, it was merely colladeral damage.

The Boss has the same live axle it uses in Grand Am, has hand adjustable shocks, has better rubber and a broader power curve... This is not a Z06 competitor, the Z06's current record is 1:37.40 with the Carbon package, thats 2.8 seconds ahead of the Boss... Everyone calm down...

Or... We can burn our GM shareholder certificates in the living room next to the window curtains!!!


Nice point, too. Most people only look at the peak HP/TQ numbers when it's the area under the curve that matters. The Boss does very well in this area with it's puny 5.0L displacement.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:37 PM   #42
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If I were to invest the kind money a new boss will cost, and put the difference into my SS Camaro, I'd have a full blown race car.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:40 PM   #43
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You can watch the Boss 302 race every month in Grand Am, they will eventually hit every track this year. Multimatic did help tune this car from the Multimatic car from last year... Kind of like On The Job Training... I think the Boss could take the GTR on the Streets of Willow because it is a slower track and limits top speed... I guess the Boss Laguna Seca is set to be at least a second faster than the Boss 302.

If the car performs at Laguna, I expect it to do just as good if not better on other US courses... The gap between the GT500 and Z06C was about 6 seconds but on Willow it was about 4 seconds. Laguna is a faster track as far as MPH go, Willow is much tighter where the Z06 lost 13mph average and the GT500 loses about 10mph. Thats where the time is made up... The GTR is faster than the Z06C at Willow but 3 seconds slower at LS...
Is Grand Am 100% stock? I simply don't know, so I wanted to ask. All I know is I would be very interested in seeing a 100% OEM car go toe-to-toe to another on the same track, by the same drive, on the same day, under the same conditions. I work in a laboratory and if it isn't as scientific as possible, I don't give it much credit (no- I'm not smart enough to be a scientist). I'm just saying that IRS is going to be an advantage when the pavement gets rougher and it's even more necessary to put the power down.

I can't almost compare a GTR because it's AWD. I'm also not taking anything away from the car. Okay - it's more because I think it's cheating a little, but at the same time, OEM-to-OEM, it beats Z06; no arguing.

You know - if we're going to compare the Boss to an M3, I'd like to hear more about the rest of the dynamics of the cars. Any competent car-guy can make a car that handles GREAT; it's another thing, though, to make it drivable on the street, and comfortable. If the Boss can deliver equal dynamics to the M3 on the street, I give it as much credit as I can. It's a different story, though, if it's loud, rattles, rides and bucks rough over the bumps, etc. I know every car gets little rattles and squeaks here and there; that's not what I mean. Also - Boss is a racecar, more-or-less - no? The M3 is not. I do want to learn more to draw my own conclusions better, but all the hype is really for the nought (almost), if we aren't comparing apples-to-apples; it's starting to look more and more like that, OMHO.

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The Boss will not do this good on a longer track where long straights and top speed is paramount, like Daytona...

Edit: I doesn't have to add up, in road racing there are far too many variables to calculate... The GTR beat the Z06 at Willow and it outweighed it by almost 800lbs... the Mustang should not be compared to a Corvette... It was made to compete with the M3 and it wins... by alot...
GTR is AWD, and with the superior PS2s on the Carbon, it's a faster car. I don't have the times handy, but AWD clearly helps the GTR. The bottom line is faster, but that doesn't really make me consider it a better car, per se. I need to qualify that better, lol.

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Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Does anybody truly think Chevy is going to "step up their game" and create a Camaro of any variety that out-performs the Z06 Corvette? Not anytime soon.

Now, when the next generation Corvette comes out, and if it has even better performance than the C6 versions produced today (which one would expect), then the game might change.
I think there's a chance of that; maybe not the Carbon-type, but a "standard" (if you can call Z06 standard...) Zed. Do I think ZL1 will? I know I'd like it to, but a smaller tire, with a lot more weight, and so-on...

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No never. Unless they repeat 84 and the GN. There are more then a few that will look to the Mustang over the Vette for price and cost of ownership and will settle for a car that comes very close to the Vette this a better overall cost, if GM doesn't fill the gap.
Good points. Aren't a lot of 'Vette customers return customers, though? I ask only because I'm not sure it would be that big of a base that would consider anything other than 'Vette. That's only a guess on my part.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:43 PM   #44
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If I were to invest the kind money a new boss will cost, and put the difference into my SS Camaro, I'd have a full blown race car.
It ranges 41-47k and for a factory race car that very nicely priced. If you have the talent and time the aftermarket world will always be better for moding, but the Manufacture has to deal w/ the Goverment regs and that's something the after market world to some extent doesn't have.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:54 PM   #45
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Yes allot of Vette owners return to buy Vettes, but as time moves on their seems to be more 30-40 y/o gen that don't want the 50 y/o Vette sigma or the extra cost, because it's a Vette. Something that many of my friends who are Vette owner seem to frequently complain about is, the over all cost just cause it Say's Corvette.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:55 PM   #46
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cant see GM making a camaro faster than a Z06 they would market the vette out of competition. really makes no sense. Yeah I agree with 500lbs less HP and not as aerodynamic theres no way
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:07 PM   #47
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Is Grand Am 100% stock? I simply don't know, so I wanted to ask. All I know is I would be very interested in seeing a 100% OEM car go toe-to-toe to another on the same track, by the same drive, on the same day, under the same conditions. I work in a laboratory and if it isn't as scientific as possible, I don't give it much credit (no- I'm not smart enough to be a scientist). I'm just saying that IRS is going to be an advantage when the pavement gets rougher and it's even more necessary to put the power down.
Grand Am is not 100% stock, I have a link to the rule book and will post it later. They are as close to stock as you can get though. Right now, the M3 and Boss has to carry a minimum race weight of 3300lbs, everything else is lighter. The M3 has two first place wins and the Boss has two 2nds place finishes, all different teams so its not just the drivers. IRS has an advantage if there are potholes and bumps on the track but if a track has potholes and bumps, the track will most likely be removed from the circuit (thats why Nurburgring lost a majority of is races). The live axle puts down more power than an IRS but seeing now that the LRA can do the work on a track that an IRS can, the arguement for racing is over for that class. Drag racers hate IRS but they will love CB IRS because of the trailing arms.

Quote:
You know - if we're going to compare the Boss to an M3, I'd like to hear more about the rest of the dynamics of the cars. Any competent car-guy can make a car that handles GREAT; it's another thing, though, to make it drivable on the street, and comfortable. If the Boss can deliver equal dynamics to the M3 on the street, I give it as much credit as I can. It's a different story, though, if it's loud, rattles, rides and bucks rough over the bumps, etc. I know every car gets little rattles and squeaks here and there; that's not what I mean. Also - Boss is a racecar, more-or-less - no? The M3 is not. I do want to learn more to draw my own conclusions better, but all the hype is really for the nought (almost), if we aren't comparing apples-to-apples; it's starting to look more and more like that, OMHO.
Comfort and Competition do not go hand and hand. You cannot road race with leather seats and soft springs. The comfort the Z type IRS BMW uses is not comfortable when you use stiff springs installed. The Boss is a racecar, the M3 is a race car too. the M3 is a specialty car, low volume and raced down by BMW's M division (like SVT). It was never intended to be a luxury car as most Americans seem to identify it with.


Quote:
GTR is AWD, and with the superior PS2s on the Carbon, it's a faster car. I don't have the times handy, but AWD clearly helps the GTR. The bottom line is faster, but that doesn't really make me consider it a better car, per se. I need to qualify that better, lol.
The Z06C destroys the GTR on Laguna Seca because it uses its top speed and ability to get there to do so. Streets of Willow is the smaller of the 2 Willow tracks, top speed is hindered and the GTR takes advantage of that. Even the GT500 gained some ground there on the Z06C.



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I think there's a chance of that; maybe not the Carbon-type, but a "standard" (if you can call Z06 standard...) Zed. Do I think ZL1 will? I know I'd like it to, but a smaller tire, with a lot more weight, and so-on...
What it comes down to is there is a $40,000 car out there that makes me question "why pay more". I am however a huge track buff..
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:10 PM   #48
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It depends on what the SCCA and NASA end up classing the Boss 302 at but if it remains in the GT's class it will dominate everything including the 5.0 GT's. Thats the main reason that the SCCA guy's are buying these things out... Even if I waited to buy a Boss, I doubt I would have got one...
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:49 PM   #49
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Well the numbers said it does and its an 06 ZO6 not current model. You work for GM and I would expect you to say something to that effect. Up the game or fall behind or did they lie, because then you could use that same argument over the number the ZO6 produced or even the ZL1 when they come out. The numbers don't lie it's a impressive car and Ford has seemed to have done their home work. 4 out of 5 cars I own are GM and never have owned a Ford, but will acknowledge the fact the Boss is a very impressive car.
Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:00 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.
K, I will engage on the friendly side of course. I have never said the ZO6 is a bad car I would own an 04-11 or GS in a heart beat. I think that people often think that a current car (Ford) that out passes a car w/ 5 y/o tech is ground breaking and is some how a miracle. Really? The Boss is built for the track plain and simple if you think that the numbers are not fake and based on unicorn pee then prove me wrong. (I don't think a LA car w/ 500 lbs can't compete w/ a ZO6) with the right set up any car can. I don't have a lot to discredit that they didn't use a sleeper, but show me the evidence that they did.
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Last edited by GrnMchin; 03-10-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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