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Old 03-09-2011, 07:13 PM   #51
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Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.
The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:14 AM   #52
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The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...
No I didn't. Can you share a link to it?
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:28 AM   #53
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No I didn't. Can you share a link to it?
This poster ad will get those ZL1's moving..

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...08#post2932608
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:47 AM   #54
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Yes allot of Vette owners return to buy Vettes, but as time moves on their seems to be more 30-40 y/o gen that don't want the 50 y/o Vette sigma or the extra cost, because it's a Vette. Something that many of my friends who are Vette owner seem to frequently complain about is, the over all cost just cause it Say's Corvette.
Ok - I don't have my finger on the 'Vette pulse. I just remember seeing a lot of customer input put into the last couple generations, and a lot were return customers. I'm not clear on the extra cost, exactly, because I believe it's about the single best value in the American car market. That's JMVHO, but I think I could make a good argument for it. I can totally see the stigma, though. It's weird, because I see well-to-do people who can afford a car without that stigma, and that are "higher class", but don't perform better, nor are the as good a value, and those people still go with 'Vette. I understand what you're saying you see though.

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Grand Am is not 100% stock, I have a link to the rule book and will post it later. They are as close to stock as you can get though. Right now, the M3 and Boss has to carry a minimum race weight of 3300lbs, everything else is lighter. The M3 has two first place wins and the Boss has two 2nds place finishes, all different teams so its not just the drivers. IRS has an advantage if there are potholes and bumps on the track but if a track has potholes and bumps, the track will most likely be removed from the circuit (thats why Nurburgring lost a majority of is races). The live axle puts down more power than an IRS but seeing now that the LRA can do the work on a track that an IRS can, the arguement for racing is over for that class. Drag racers hate IRS but they will love CB IRS because of the trailing arms.

Comfort and Competition do not go hand and hand. You cannot road race with leather seats and soft springs. The comfort the Z type IRS BMW uses is not comfortable when you use stiff springs installed. The Boss is a racecar, the M3 is a race car too. the M3 is a specialty car, low volume and raced down by BMW's M division (like SVT). It was never intended to be a luxury car as most Americans seem to identify it with.

The Z06C destroys the GTR on Laguna Seca because it uses its top speed and ability to get there to do so. Streets of Willow is the smaller of the 2 Willow tracks, top speed is hindered and the GTR takes advantage of that. Even the GT500 gained some ground there on the Z06C.

What it comes down to is there is a $40,000 car out there that makes me question "why pay more". I am however a huge track buff..
My point about the question about Grand Am being stock is because I miss the connection you seemed to be trying to make between performance and a race car in the earlier post. I don't have an opinion on a race-Boss, nor would I make one because I have no interest. My point is that it's one track that we've seen the Boss dominate the M3; the point almost becomes moot, and is certainly loses domination if it doesn't go faster at other tracks. If the Boss loses more weight and runs on different tires, it's not the same car as I'm discussing, and what I thought the point of the comparison was. Regarding my comments on the IRS vs. SRA - again - I don't care to comment on race cars - I'm talking driving on the street. If we're only going to talk about a race track, I don't think it's fair to compare a track-only car to a total-performance street car, like M3. I understand the dynamics and efficiencies and deficiencies of both styles of suspensions, and with the exception of drag racing, I think IRS is just plain better. Not all tracks are perfect and IRS will just cope with the irregularities better and make better use of the power.

Comfort and Competition for a street car have to co-exist. It we're going to compare the Boss to M3, I don't see any validity in only arguing one aspect of the car. Then, you completely ignore any other deficiencies of the car and the comparison loses any credibility for me. Building a car for the track, with no regard is a lot easier than engineering a car to do both. Sure - you're going to be make concessions for both aspects, but the bottom line is to sell cars - I thought... M3 drivers can do both, in total comfort. Take ZR1, IMO - some people consider it a supercar. I don't think it's a supercar because it lacks all of the extra hooplah and utter vulgarity that Aston Martins, Ferraris, Lambos, etc. have that go with the performance. The exteriors and interiors reek of all sorts of exotic materials and designs. SURE - ZR1 absolutely performs better than a lot of supercars, but it isn't over-the-top, as a whole, like them. That's how I think of the Boss. The Boss might have the performance, but it's still not in the same league as M3. It has the comfort and aminities, yet still has outstanding performance, which the Boss can't do, because it has to be a stripped car in order to have that performance. Technologically, except for the engine, I don't think it holds a candle to M3. It's not sophisicated in any way. Manually tunable shocks, are cool, but not exactly high-tech; I'd consider Magnetic Ride Control high-tech (and the like).

I don't see the point about M3 being a race car either... Why would a race car come with all the content and comfort that it does? If BMW were making a race car, they would eliminate all that stuff. Why does a race car have navigation? Will the driver lose his way around a track? Why does a race car have a premium stereo with HD? Will he get bored from hearing the V8 sing at 8400 RPMs? Does he need Bluetooth to communicate with the crew chief? Does the Boss have such options? I see a nice CD radio with cloth Recaro seats... Not the same.

You comments about Z06 being faster than the GTR at one track, and then vise versa for another is exactly my point for the Boss. I want to see more comparisons at other tracks, because while I know those two cars are very comparable, I don't know that I believe the Boss is on the same level as M3. I'd like to know, though. I still won't get past my earlier points about it being a factory race car while M3 is not.

Our perspectives are different. Though I'm an enthusiast, I'm not a track junkie. I'm not in the market for a race car, which is what I think the Boss is. Comparing a race car that doesn't have to offer comfort and all the amenities is not a good comparison. That M3 can be tweeked, too, and probably crush a Boss if it were stripped and focused like the Boss. If you focus is only racing the car you're looking at, I can't fault anyone looking for the best value. I don't know that I'd say the M3 deserves the prices they fetch, completely, but I'm not interested in that car either.

It comes down to what you want the car for. I'm not looking for a race car. I want a car, like the M3, than can do both great. While the Boss might be exceptional on the track, that's not what most people want or look for. I still maintain this comparison is not exactly apples-to-apples.

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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...
I like that poster, lol.
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:57 AM   #55
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The M3 is still only a limited run of a performance 3 series, they only produce around 5000 a year. The older M3's were at one time, stripped 3 series BMW's, although the new ones keep the luxury and tech gadgets. The M3 is a great car, I'm not a big fan of BMW, I own a 320i and it will be the last one I ever buy. The price to fix these cars is ridiculous but the little luxuries are nice. If most people are concerned about street performance then a simple smart car will do but racing is a whole different story.

BMW takes pride in their racing program along with most other German car companies. The fact that a Mustang is a threat is a big deal to them, so much so, that BMW threatened to pull their advertisements from Motor Trend after the GT vs. M3. The heart of any vehicle is the motor and now that the Boss is almost a spitting image of the 4.0 M engine, it has their attention... Ford can't do what BMW can all at once, and if you look back at the M3, it wasn't always like this. Ford is taking small bites at BMW, Grand Am is intense, where Ford still uses the LRA and is very, very good. American's typically don't compare the two because sadly, American's typically don't know better. Come the next redesign though... I hope that American's will stand behind an American car...

If I want IRS I can always retrofit Control Blade in my car, the trailing arms will bolt right up... and someday I might do that.. But the thing that bothers me the most is that people who scream performance usually can't even tell you how to spell the word. A live axle is currently outperforming its intended competition and those people who are "racers" still continue to ignore the LRA because it simply isn't mainstream. There are many live axle Mustangs over here that run circles around said IRS systems and for the most part, the Germans I work with said that it is amazing. It truly is amazing but will still be ignored by people that either hate the Mustang or people that really don't know anything (usually are one in the same).

I can almost guarantee that there will be CBIRS haters when it comes to America, not because it is different but because its on a Mustang... Until someone can show me that the traditional coil-out, 4 link IRS can out handle/manuver a 3 link live rear axle in this price range and class... I will continue to question IRS. Now show me a lightweight, compact, affordable and durable solution and I am all ears...

Edit: The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...

Also, The Boss 302 is not a stripper vehicle, it has everything a GT has and not it has a 3 way EPAS system.. What does the M3 have in the interior that is worth $25,000 dollars more?

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Old 03-10-2011, 12:25 PM   #56
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The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...
curious, how often on a track is the boss at 8400rpms?
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:35 PM   #57
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You comments about Z06 being faster than the GTR at one track, and then vise versa for another is exactly my point for the Boss. I want to see more comparisons at other tracks, because while I know those two cars are very comparable, I don't know that I believe the Boss is on the same level as M3. I'd like to know, though. I still won't get past my earlier points about it being a factory race car while M3 is not.
You have to understand each cars strengths and track characteristics. The only reason the GTR managed to be faster than the Z06 is because the top speed of the Corvette is hindered at Willow. Although the new GTR is faster at Laguna now (unofficially 1:39.62), the Z06 loses ground to the GTR and the GT500 on Streets of Willow, if it was the actually Willow Springs then it would be different again. We have enough information on the internet alone (official and unofficial) to make a strong prediction where the Boss would be at on that track. If the Boss can manage a 122mph speed, it has a good shot at the GTR at Willow.

At Laguna though, it would be close to the new GTR but still behind the Z06C because the Z can get up to 133mph on that track where the Boss can only reach 129mph. Even though there were only two laps conducted in the Boss that were recorded as official, I can only see a 130mph speed from the Boss which could put it as low as 1:39.50...

The Boss 302 LS is exempt due to its low production run...
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #58
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Im not one of thsoe close-minded guys who would never own a Ford, Ill buy anything as long as it looks good. That being said - why do people obsess over stuff like this? Will your world come crashing down around you if a Mustang beats you to the next stoplight? Seriously, who cares? I think the Camaro and Challenger are both better looking. You could sell the Camaro and Challenger with only a 200hp motor, and Id still buy it over a lightning quick Mustang. Maybe the next redesign will produce a great looking Mustang, and then Ill want one, but strictly based on looks.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #59
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curious, how often on a track is the boss at 8400rpms?
Ford factory limited the RPMs at 7500 so never, but if they were in 3rd most of the time, it would be above 7000 most of the time. Thats where the Boss makes its power so the key to fast lap times is keeping the RPM's above 7k.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:45 PM   #60
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Im not one of thsoe close-minded guys who would never own a Ford, Ill buy anything as long as it looks good. That being said - why do people obsess over stuff like this? Will your world come crashing down around you if a Mustang beats you to the next stoplight? Seriously, who cares? I think the Camaro and Challenger are both better looking. You could sell the Camaro and Challenger with only a 200hp motor, and Id still buy it over a lightning quick Mustang. Maybe the next redesign will produce a great looking Mustang, and then Ill want one, but strictly based on looks.
I guess looks are objective, I love the way the Mustang looks. I always wanted a 1969 and the 2010+ reminds me so much of the '69's. To me, I cannot stand the way the Camaro looks, I usually don't tell the owners that I think it looks cartoonish or like something a power ranger would drive because I know that person is really proud of that car. Looks are something you can't change and is deep rooted into a person's opinion. To me, if a person buys something purely on looks alone, they are usually not an educated consumer.. They see it, they buy it, they sell it later...

Obsess? Automobiles are my hobby and everything that involves them. What’s your hobby?

"Looks" are also usually something that is referred to when trying to make a loser of a competition fell better about losing... "At least you got your looks"

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Old 03-10-2011, 01:08 PM   #61
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Ford factory limited the RPMs at 7500 so never, but if they were in 3rd most of the time, it would be above 7000 most of the time. Thats where the Boss makes its power so the key to fast lap times is keeping the RPM's above 7k.
and how often are the rpms kept up around there? where does the powerband start in it and does it have good low-end to mid-range power?

personally i love the front end of the new mustangs and what Ford did with the 5.0 coyote engine is amazing (i really hate people comparing the LSX engines to it because it's a whole different engine) but like most people i'm for driving a car on the street, not the track so would the average Joe be at 7000-8500rpms? no not anywhere close to that but i guess having bragging rights of "my Boss 302 is faster than your M3 on a track" might mean a lot to some people. hopefully GM does make something to be Ford's competitor on the grand am series instead of the M3 :( that either means Ford knows they blew Chevy out of the water and doesn't need to worry about them or they were blown out of the water by Chevy . . . i'm leaning with the don't fear the Camro in the grand am series
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:31 PM   #62
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and how often are the rpms kept up around there? where does the powerband start in it and does it have good low-end to mid-range power?

personally i love the front end of the new mustangs and what Ford did with the 5.0 coyote engine is amazing (i really hate people comparing the LSX engines to it because it's a whole different engine) but like most people i'm for driving a car on the street, not the track so would the average Joe be at 7000-8500rpms? no not anywhere close to that but i guess having bragging rights of "my Boss 302 is faster than your M3 on a track" might mean a lot to some people. hopefully GM does make something to be Ford's competitor on the grand am series instead of the M3 :( that either means Ford knows they blew Chevy out of the water and doesn't need to worry about them or they were blown out of the water by Chevy . . . i'm leaning with the don't fear the Camro in the grand am series
Your not going to use all of the Boss on the street, I only use about 50% of my GT on public roads. The Camaro is having trouble in Grand Am, it is even lighter than the Mustang and M3 but still has not won a race since it began racing. It only managed one 3rd place finish last year.. The Camaro just isn't track friendly with its stock components.. Here's the Boss's dyno sheet at the wheels...


VS. the 5.0 GT


At 12% drivetrain loss its about 472hp and 402tq at the flywheel.
Unless Ford developed an extremely efficient drive train and only lose 10% which would bring it to about 460hp and 400tq.

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Old 03-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #63
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The M3 is still only a limited run of a performance 3 series, they only produce around 5000 a year. The older M3's were at one time, stripped 3 series BMW's, although the new ones keep the luxury and tech gadgets. The M3 is a great car, I'm not a big fan of BMW, I own a 320i and it will be the last one I ever buy. The price to fix these cars is ridiculous but the little luxuries are nice. If most people are concerned about street performance then a simple smart car will do but racing is a whole different story.

BMW takes pride in their racing program along with most other German car companies. The fact that a Mustang is a threat is a big deal to them, so much so, that BMW threatened to pull their advertisements from Motor Trend after the GT vs. M3. The heart of any vehicle is the motor and now that the Boss is almost a spitting image of the 4.0 M engine, it has their attention... Ford can't do what BMW can all at once, and if you look back at the M3, it wasn't always like this. Ford is taking small bites at BMW, Grand Am is intense, where Ford still uses the LRA and is very, very good. American's typically don't compare the two because sadly, American's typically don't know better. Come the next redesign though... I hope that American's will stand behind an American car...

If I want IRS I can always retrofit Control Blade in my car, the trailing arms will bolt right up... and someday I might do that.. But the thing that bothers me the most is that people who scream performance usually can't even tell you how to spell the word. A live axle is currently outperforming its intended competition and those people who are "racers" still continue to ignore the LRA because it simply isn't mainstream. There are many live axle Mustangs over here that run circles around said IRS systems and for the most part, the Germans I work with said that it is amazing. It truly is amazing but will still be ignored by people that either hate the Mustang or people that really don't know anything (usually are one in the same).

I can almost guarantee that there will be CBIRS haters when it comes to America, not because it is different but because its on a Mustang... Until someone can show me that the traditional coil-out, 4 link IRS can out handle/manuver a 3 link live rear axle in this price range and class... I will continue to question IRS. Now show me a lightweight, compact, affordable and durable solution and I am all ears...

Edit: The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...
I still don't see a fair connection. Comments about Americans not knowing better and the other suggestive comments really start to make me think you have more bias than you lead on. You're obviously dark on BMW, and clearly a Ford-guy. I don't question the Boss is GREAT. I don't know if it's better than M3 on the whole. Considering the bias of rags' like MT, I don't blame BMW. You keep pushing on how the LRA is outperforming the competition, but I still don't see enough information out there. One track isn't going to cut it. I we all only drove on Laguna Seca, that'd be one thing. If cars were only compared on LS - that'd be one thing. If you're looking for a race car - the Boss is a great value. To say more, at this point, doesn't really change my mind. In a video, here, where a company completely mod'd out SS and a GT with their suspension systems, it seemed pretty clear the LRA was having some problems putting the power down. There were some issues that later came to light, but considering SS's weight disadvantage, I think the IRS was what leveled the playing field.

The only thing the Boss is showing is how fast it is at one track. Congrats' to Ford for stripping a street car to a race car, and comparing it to a luxury street car that is advanced as they come. You show me more results at other tracks under comparable conditions, and I'll reconsider. Until then, this topic is just Ford fodder on a CAMARO website, and it's getting old.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:54 PM   #64
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other than the intake whats different on the boss engine and the coyote engine?
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #65
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other than the intake whats different on the boss engine and the coyote engine?
There was alot that was changed, cams, forged internals, sodium valves... It shares the block, head castings, pistons and crank with the 5.0. I will look into it though and get back to you in detail.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:42 PM   #66
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I still don't see a fair connection. Comments about Americans not knowing better and the other suggestive comments really start to make me think you have more bias than you lead on. You're obviously dark on BMW, and clearly a Ford-guy. I don't question the Boss is GREAT. I don't know if it's better than M3 on the whole. Considering the bias of rags' like MT, I don't blame BMW. You keep pushing on how the LRA is outperforming the competition, but I still don't see enough information out there. One track isn't going to cut it. I we all only drove on Laguna Seca, that'd be one thing. If cars were only compared on LS - that'd be one thing. If you're looking for a race car - the Boss is a great value. To say more, at this point, doesn't really change my mind. In a video, here, where a company completely mod'd out SS and a GT with their suspension systems, it seemed pretty clear the LRA was having some problems putting the power down. There were some issues that later came to light, but considering SS's weight disadvantage, I think the IRS was what leveled the playing field.

The only thing the Boss is showing is how fast it is at one track. Congrats' to Ford for stripping a street car to a race car, and comparing it to a luxury street car that is advanced as they come. You show me more results at other tracks under comparable conditions, and I'll reconsider. Until then, this topic is just Ford fodder on a CAMARO website, and it's getting old.
If I haven't spent the last 8 years in Asia and Europe I wouldn't know any better, My bias comes from ground level not from "I heard so". How many people here has even seen an M3's interior since 2008? How many people have driven an M3? Thats mostly where my frustration comes from...

The Boss 302 is not a stripper car, I don't understand where you guys are getting this at. Furthermore, why nobody has even taken the time to look and see if it was stripped or not. It has the GT's interior, there was nothing taken out, full dash, console, seats, carpet, sound system, speakers... It will never be a fair comparison, period.. because people refuse to compare it... Nobody wants an M3 killer, because the people with M3's would moan...

You are talking about Pedders suspension video (which is fantastic suspension) but I hope you will take note that that Saleen Mustang only had 450rwhp compared to the 556rwhp Camaro... There was a problem with the axle and the problem was it needed 106 more horsepower. What was the margin of victory? Pete himself said the axle needed more room to move and they fixed the issue and found another second in the car...

I stand corrected, I guess the Mustang isn't better than the M3... I was lead to believe that performance was the milestone in which vehicles are judged... now that the Mustang is there... Its the shinny knobs, leather and the quality of plastic that is paramount.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:07 PM   #67
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Yup I think the Vette is one of the top performers as well, but the initial cost of the car and insurance seems to be were cars like the Boss are quickly gaining ground. Especially when they perform at or just below the Vette. I'm looking a the Grand Sport option in a few years, but 55K starting as apposed to 41k for the Boss has me looking at the opposition. The used market favors the Vette, because you can find some great deals on them, but not likely to find a used Boss (low and limited production)
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:18 PM   #68
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If I haven't spent the last 8 years in Asia and Europe I wouldn't know any better, My bias comes from ground level not from "I heard so". How many people here has even seen an M3's interior since 2008? How many people have driven an M3? Thats mostly where my frustration comes from...

The Boss 302 is not a stripper car, I don't understand where you guys are getting this at. Furthermore, why nobody has even taken the time to look and see if it was stripped or not. It has the GT's interior, there was nothing taken out, full dash, console, seats, carpet, sound system, speakers... It will never be a fair comparison, period.. because people refuse to compare it... Nobody wants an M3 killer, because the people with M3's would moan...

You are talking about Pedders suspension video (which is fantastic suspension) but I hope you will take note that that Saleen Mustang only had 450rwhp compared to the 556rwhp Camaro... There was a problem with the axle and the problem was it needed 106 more horsepower. What was the margin of victory? Pete himself said the axle needed more room to move and they fixed the issue and found another second in the car...

I stand corrected, I guess the Mustang isn't better than the M3... I was lead to believe that performance was the milestone in which vehicles are judged... now that the Mustang is there... Its the shinny knobs, leather and the quality of plastic that is paramount.
I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated and think everyone else is ignorant because they didn't travel the world. I'm sorry it looks to me like M3's interior is better than your ultimate car. I'm not making the comparison; Ford is.

I didn't see a back seat, nav', leather, and many other amenities; I looked at the website.

Yes - that video, and if you followed along that whole story, you would've read the 'Stang had a problem with suspension travel and the SS had bad heat-soak problems and wasn't making the same power on the track it would at the dyno'. Regardless - that heavier car with IRS still hung with the lighter Mustang.

Perhaps you should re-read some posts because all I've said is compare apples-to-apples. If you want to talk about a race car, compare it to another. If you're strictly looking for performance - fine; but not everyone only considers performance - some people want a complete package. However - don't deminish those points if you want to enter a conversation. No one like a one-sided conversation. Otherwise - maybe some Boss fanboys will welcome your knowledge, because, frankly, I'm done reading it. I conceed to your sarcasm... LET'S ALL BUY BOSS's BECAUSE 'Pill APPROVES!!!
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:27 PM   #69
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radz28

Yup I think the Vette is one of the top performers as well, but the initial cost of the car and insurance seems to be were cars like the Boss are quickly gaining ground. Especially when they perform at or just below the Vette. I'm looking a the Grand Sport option in a few years, but 55K starting as apposed to 41k for the Boss has me looking at the opposition. The used market favors the Vette, because you can find some great deals on them, but not likely to find a used Boss (low and limited production)
Good points. Yeah - that insurance isn't nice, lol. That makes sense. It's hard to argue with the Boss if you just want to go fast. It's not going to be easy to find them use, just like you said
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #70
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There was alot that was changed, cams, forged internals, sodium valves... It shares the block, head castings, pistons and crank with the 5.0. I will look into it though and get back to you in detail.
awesome thank you! i like to learn more about other engines, not just what i own
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #71
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Good points. Yeah - that insurance isn't nice, lol. That makes sense. It's hard to argue with the Boss if you just want to go fast. It's not going to be easy to find them use, just like you said
Yup

I would love to get a Gran Sport (Looks BA), but with a family makes it hard w/ only two seats. I love the flexibility if I'm out for a cruise and I need to pick up the kid, of not having to change cars. I still have a few years before I going to buy another car and can hope that the Z28 or something similar is out.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:41 PM   #72
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Add me to the club. The Boss is impressive.....but it's not that impressive. I can't quite comprehend the hype...

It's a Mustang with a modest power bump, retuned suspension, and manual-adjustable shocks......Woooooooooo...... Ford has done to the Mustang what people around here have been doing to their Camaros since it came out....Naturally, I'm biased to a factory package, and for that I give them credit, but

IMVHO....the Boss is as much a product of Ford's excellently persuasive PR and marketing people as it is a product of their performance division.

I've said it before and haven't wavered; Nurburgring times are, at best, purely entertainment because there is no governing body that oversees the runs. However -- it is one of a very few road courses that measure a cars entire potential with a myriad of long straights, moderate sweepers, and super-tight turns....Will most of us ever be able to race there? No....but I'd be curious to see that time...


No it wasn't.
Are you just ignoring the fully forged reciprocating assembly, upgraded valvetrain and all the other upgrades or do you not know about them? You get a LOT of upgrades for the extra money. The boss is a purpose built race car made street legal. You could run that thing WOT until it ran out of gas and not worry about a thing. It's not just a few simple upgrades. This is a track day car straight from the factory, not just a gt with adjustable coilovers and an intake manifold. As for the solid axle, well that's far from the limiting factor when properly dialed in on the track. Ford does very well in multiple racing circuits with the 302r which still has the sra.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:00 PM   #73
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I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated and think everyone else is ignorant because they didn't travel the world. I'm sorry it looks to me like M3's interior is better than your ultimate car. I'm not making the comparison; Ford is.

I didn't see a back seat, nav', leather, and many other amenities; I looked at the website.
Sorry bud, didn't mean to come off as an @$$. The Boss LS has the rear seat delete, No leather and nav is not available.

Quote:
Yes - that video, and if you followed along that whole story, you would've read the 'Stang had a problem with suspension travel and the SS had bad heat-soak problems and wasn't making the same power on the track it would at the dyno'. Regardless - that heavier car with IRS still hung with the lighter Mustang.
Pete called me to set up a quote, he said that they lowered the Mustang too much and it didn't allow the axle to move. They raised the car after that, allowing the axle to work better. Both the 6.2 and 4.6 was supercharged, I read the LS3 was having problems but im sure the 4.6 got alittle soaked too.

Quote:
Perhaps you should re-read some posts because all I've said is compare apples-to-apples. If you want to talk about a race car, compare it to another. If you're strictly looking for performance - fine; but not everyone only considers performance - some people want a complete package. However - don't deminish those points if you want to enter a conversation. No one like a one-sided conversation. Otherwise - maybe some Boss fanboys will welcome your knowledge, because, frankly, I'm done reading it. I conceed to your sarcasm... LET'S ALL BUY BOSS's BECAUSE 'Pill APPROVES!!!
The standard Boss does not have Nav, No leather (better for track), rear seat delete is the Laguna Seca option and no telescopic steering wheel (V6 and GT too).

The Mustang and M3 are bred for performance, the M3 didn't carry over the luxury options until 2008. When the Z28 comes out, I would hope that it eliminates some of the interior options that are not needed for a vehicle based solely on performance. Again, sorry for the sarcasm... I am really proud that an American car is meeting the M3 head on and hurting it where it counts most..

Last edited by thePill; 03-10-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:00 PM   #74
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Are you just ignoring the fully forged reciprocating assembly, upgraded valvetrain and all the other upgrades or do you not know about them? You get a LOT of upgrades for the extra money. The boss is a purpose built race car made street legal. You could run that thing WOT until it ran out of gas and not worry about a thing. It's not just a few simple upgrades. This is a track day car straight from the factory, not just a gt with adjustable coilovers and an intake manifold. As for the solid axle, well that's far from the limiting factor when properly dialed in on the track. Ford does very well in multiple racing circuits with the 302r which still has the sra.
That 5.0 is really a marvel. Doesn't it CNC'd heads, too?
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:11 PM   #75
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Sorry bud, didn't mean to come off as an @$$. The Boss LS has the rear seat delete, leather and nav is not available.

Pete called me to set up a quote, he said that they lowered the Mustang too much and it didn't allow the axle to move. They raised the car after that, allowing the axle to work better. Both the 6.2 and 4.6 was supercharged, I read the LS3 was having problems but im sure the 4.6 got alittle soaked too.

The standard Boss does not have Nav, No leather (better for track), rear seat delete is the Laguna Seca option and no telescopic steering wheel (V6 and GT too).

The Mustang and M3 are bred for performance, the M3 didn't carry over the luxury options until 2008. When the Z28 comes out, I would hope that it eliminates some of the interior options that are not needed for a vehicle based solely on performance. Again, sorry for the sarcasm... I am really proud that an American car is meeting the M3 head on and hurting it where it counts most..
It's only the LS, no? I kept trying to find the rest of the content, so I could compare to the GT, but didn't have much luck or time

That was exactly what I was talking about, regarding Pete's cars. He was showcasing Pedders full catalog on both cars, so I'm suer they were driven to the edge. In the video, it just sounds like the GT didn't pull all the power down because it sounded like the driver was getting in-and-out of the throttle in some corners more than SS. I wasn't watching the pedal indicator, and maybe the audio was bad It just seemed to put the power down better, and from what Pete had posted, the power between the two was almost the same, considering the soak. Still - SS managed to keep up - just barely.

to your last paragraph. Please let me say again that I'm not trying to take anything away from the Boss. I think it's a great car. I think I have more of a problem with the marketing - that's all. I agree with your comments regarding Z28, too. Because I'm sure they will have to trim as much mass as they can, I think that IRS will help the handling. The Boss is tuned absolutely great, and Z28 is going to have to bring everything to the table for a good showing.

I'm glad we have this passion. I think it's people like us who keep the war going, and push GM and Ford to work harder and harder to give us better and better cars to brawl with I'd like to say I'd look forward to meeting you on a track some day, but I have a feeling you'd POWN me pretty good, LOL
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