Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Phastek Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-10-2011, 12:35 PM   #57
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
You comments about Z06 being faster than the GTR at one track, and then vise versa for another is exactly my point for the Boss. I want to see more comparisons at other tracks, because while I know those two cars are very comparable, I don't know that I believe the Boss is on the same level as M3. I'd like to know, though. I still won't get past my earlier points about it being a factory race car while M3 is not.
You have to understand each cars strengths and track characteristics. The only reason the GTR managed to be faster than the Z06 is because the top speed of the Corvette is hindered at Willow. Although the new GTR is faster at Laguna now (unofficially 1:39.62), the Z06 loses ground to the GTR and the GT500 on Streets of Willow, if it was the actually Willow Springs then it would be different again. We have enough information on the internet alone (official and unofficial) to make a strong prediction where the Boss would be at on that track. If the Boss can manage a 122mph speed, it has a good shot at the GTR at Willow.

At Laguna though, it would be close to the new GTR but still behind the Z06C because the Z can get up to 133mph on that track where the Boss can only reach 129mph. Even though there were only two laps conducted in the Boss that were recorded as official, I can only see a 130mph speed from the Boss which could put it as low as 1:39.50...

The Boss 302 LS is exempt due to its low production run...
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #58
Axe
 
Axe's Avatar
 
Drives: have not ordered yet
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: poconos,pa
Posts: 183
Im not one of thsoe close-minded guys who would never own a Ford, Ill buy anything as long as it looks good. That being said - why do people obsess over stuff like this? Will your world come crashing down around you if a Mustang beats you to the next stoplight? Seriously, who cares? I think the Camaro and Challenger are both better looking. You could sell the Camaro and Challenger with only a 200hp motor, and Id still buy it over a lightning quick Mustang. Maybe the next redesign will produce a great looking Mustang, and then Ill want one, but strictly based on looks.
Axe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #59
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Nothing View Post
curious, how often on a track is the boss at 8400rpms?
Ford factory limited the RPMs at 7500 so never, but if they were in 3rd most of the time, it would be above 7000 most of the time. Thats where the Boss makes its power so the key to fast lap times is keeping the RPM's above 7k.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 12:45 PM   #60
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe View Post
Im not one of thsoe close-minded guys who would never own a Ford, Ill buy anything as long as it looks good. That being said - why do people obsess over stuff like this? Will your world come crashing down around you if a Mustang beats you to the next stoplight? Seriously, who cares? I think the Camaro and Challenger are both better looking. You could sell the Camaro and Challenger with only a 200hp motor, and Id still buy it over a lightning quick Mustang. Maybe the next redesign will produce a great looking Mustang, and then Ill want one, but strictly based on looks.
I guess looks are objective, I love the way the Mustang looks. I always wanted a 1969 and the 2010+ reminds me so much of the '69's. To me, I cannot stand the way the Camaro looks, I usually don't tell the owners that I think it looks cartoonish or like something a power ranger would drive because I know that person is really proud of that car. Looks are something you can't change and is deep rooted into a person's opinion. To me, if a person buys something purely on looks alone, they are usually not an educated consumer.. They see it, they buy it, they sell it later...

Obsess? Automobiles are my hobby and everything that involves them. What’s your hobby?

"Looks" are also usually something that is referred to when trying to make a loser of a competition fell better about losing... "At least you got your looks"

Last edited by thePill; 03-10-2011 at 12:59 PM.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 01:08 PM   #61
Stock6.0GTO
Under a Paccar
 
Drives: Sentra, Durango and Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Modesto
Posts: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Ford factory limited the RPMs at 7500 so never, but if they were in 3rd most of the time, it would be above 7000 most of the time. Thats where the Boss makes its power so the key to fast lap times is keeping the RPM's above 7k.
and how often are the rpms kept up around there? where does the powerband start in it and does it have good low-end to mid-range power?

personally i love the front end of the new mustangs and what Ford did with the 5.0 coyote engine is amazing (i really hate people comparing the LSX engines to it because it's a whole different engine) but like most people i'm for driving a car on the street, not the track so would the average Joe be at 7000-8500rpms? no not anywhere close to that but i guess having bragging rights of "my Boss 302 is faster than your M3 on a track" might mean a lot to some people. hopefully GM does make something to be Ford's competitor on the grand am series instead of the M3 :( that either means Ford knows they blew Chevy out of the water and doesn't need to worry about them or they were blown out of the water by Chevy . . . i'm leaning with the don't fear the Camro in the grand am series
__________________
Sold-2006 Pontiac GTO M6 1 of 475
Not driving your car to keep miles off of it, is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will appreciate it more.
353rwhp 353rwtq
DD-06 Sentra
Project-73 Camaro
Stock6.0GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 01:31 PM   #62
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Nothing View Post
and how often are the rpms kept up around there? where does the powerband start in it and does it have good low-end to mid-range power?

personally i love the front end of the new mustangs and what Ford did with the 5.0 coyote engine is amazing (i really hate people comparing the LSX engines to it because it's a whole different engine) but like most people i'm for driving a car on the street, not the track so would the average Joe be at 7000-8500rpms? no not anywhere close to that but i guess having bragging rights of "my Boss 302 is faster than your M3 on a track" might mean a lot to some people. hopefully GM does make something to be Ford's competitor on the grand am series instead of the M3 :( that either means Ford knows they blew Chevy out of the water and doesn't need to worry about them or they were blown out of the water by Chevy . . . i'm leaning with the don't fear the Camro in the grand am series
Your not going to use all of the Boss on the street, I only use about 50% of my GT on public roads. The Camaro is having trouble in Grand Am, it is even lighter than the Mustang and M3 but still has not won a race since it began racing. It only managed one 3rd place finish last year.. The Camaro just isn't track friendly with its stock components.. Here's the Boss's dyno sheet at the wheels...


VS. the 5.0 GT


At 12% drivetrain loss its about 472hp and 402tq at the flywheel.
Unless Ford developed an extremely efficient drive train and only lose 10% which would bring it to about 460hp and 400tq.

Last edited by thePill; 03-10-2011 at 01:43 PM.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #63
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
The M3 is still only a limited run of a performance 3 series, they only produce around 5000 a year. The older M3's were at one time, stripped 3 series BMW's, although the new ones keep the luxury and tech gadgets. The M3 is a great car, I'm not a big fan of BMW, I own a 320i and it will be the last one I ever buy. The price to fix these cars is ridiculous but the little luxuries are nice. If most people are concerned about street performance then a simple smart car will do but racing is a whole different story.

BMW takes pride in their racing program along with most other German car companies. The fact that a Mustang is a threat is a big deal to them, so much so, that BMW threatened to pull their advertisements from Motor Trend after the GT vs. M3. The heart of any vehicle is the motor and now that the Boss is almost a spitting image of the 4.0 M engine, it has their attention... Ford can't do what BMW can all at once, and if you look back at the M3, it wasn't always like this. Ford is taking small bites at BMW, Grand Am is intense, where Ford still uses the LRA and is very, very good. American's typically don't compare the two because sadly, American's typically don't know better. Come the next redesign though... I hope that American's will stand behind an American car...

If I want IRS I can always retrofit Control Blade in my car, the trailing arms will bolt right up... and someday I might do that.. But the thing that bothers me the most is that people who scream performance usually can't even tell you how to spell the word. A live axle is currently outperforming its intended competition and those people who are "racers" still continue to ignore the LRA because it simply isn't mainstream. There are many live axle Mustangs over here that run circles around said IRS systems and for the most part, the Germans I work with said that it is amazing. It truly is amazing but will still be ignored by people that either hate the Mustang or people that really don't know anything (usually are one in the same).

I can almost guarantee that there will be CBIRS haters when it comes to America, not because it is different but because its on a Mustang... Until someone can show me that the traditional coil-out, 4 link IRS can out handle/manuver a 3 link live rear axle in this price range and class... I will continue to question IRS. Now show me a lightweight, compact, affordable and durable solution and I am all ears...

Edit: The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...
I still don't see a fair connection. Comments about Americans not knowing better and the other suggestive comments really start to make me think you have more bias than you lead on. You're obviously dark on BMW, and clearly a Ford-guy. I don't question the Boss is GREAT. I don't know if it's better than M3 on the whole. Considering the bias of rags' like MT, I don't blame BMW. You keep pushing on how the LRA is outperforming the competition, but I still don't see enough information out there. One track isn't going to cut it. I we all only drove on Laguna Seca, that'd be one thing. If cars were only compared on LS - that'd be one thing. If you're looking for a race car - the Boss is a great value. To say more, at this point, doesn't really change my mind. In a video, here, where a company completely mod'd out SS and a GT with their suspension systems, it seemed pretty clear the LRA was having some problems putting the power down. There were some issues that later came to light, but considering SS's weight disadvantage, I think the IRS was what leveled the playing field.

The only thing the Boss is showing is how fast it is at one track. Congrats' to Ford for stripping a street car to a race car, and comparing it to a luxury street car that is advanced as they come. You show me more results at other tracks under comparable conditions, and I'll reconsider. Until then, this topic is just Ford fodder on a CAMARO website, and it's getting old.
__________________
05 Hummer H2 SUV on OEM Air Ride
Forged 11.1:1 408 LQ4 (K1 crank & rods; Mahle pistons)/CPP LS3 CNC heads/BTR Stage IV LS3 cam and valvetrain/home ported L92 intake manifold/ported 90mm TB/custom Volant CAI/mid-length headers/AFE dual 3" CB/Corvette Servo/el cheapo lift/Cognito UCAs/e'fan conversion/aluminum radiator/Moroso catchcan/HPTuners by me/LED exterior lighting/Pioneer AVH-5600BHS/Pioneer GM-9601/2-Pioneer TS-W310D4/Obcon Labyrinth dual-12 box/lots of other stuff
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 01:54 PM   #64
Stock6.0GTO
Under a Paccar
 
Drives: Sentra, Durango and Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Modesto
Posts: 938
other than the intake whats different on the boss engine and the coyote engine?
__________________
Sold-2006 Pontiac GTO M6 1 of 475
Not driving your car to keep miles off of it, is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will appreciate it more.
353rwhp 353rwtq
DD-06 Sentra
Project-73 Camaro
Stock6.0GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #65
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Nothing View Post
other than the intake whats different on the boss engine and the coyote engine?
There was alot that was changed, cams, forged internals, sodium valves... It shares the block, head castings, pistons and crank with the 5.0. I will look into it though and get back to you in detail.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 02:42 PM   #66
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
I still don't see a fair connection. Comments about Americans not knowing better and the other suggestive comments really start to make me think you have more bias than you lead on. You're obviously dark on BMW, and clearly a Ford-guy. I don't question the Boss is GREAT. I don't know if it's better than M3 on the whole. Considering the bias of rags' like MT, I don't blame BMW. You keep pushing on how the LRA is outperforming the competition, but I still don't see enough information out there. One track isn't going to cut it. I we all only drove on Laguna Seca, that'd be one thing. If cars were only compared on LS - that'd be one thing. If you're looking for a race car - the Boss is a great value. To say more, at this point, doesn't really change my mind. In a video, here, where a company completely mod'd out SS and a GT with their suspension systems, it seemed pretty clear the LRA was having some problems putting the power down. There were some issues that later came to light, but considering SS's weight disadvantage, I think the IRS was what leveled the playing field.

The only thing the Boss is showing is how fast it is at one track. Congrats' to Ford for stripping a street car to a race car, and comparing it to a luxury street car that is advanced as they come. You show me more results at other tracks under comparable conditions, and I'll reconsider. Until then, this topic is just Ford fodder on a CAMARO website, and it's getting old.
If I haven't spent the last 8 years in Asia and Europe I wouldn't know any better, My bias comes from ground level not from "I heard so". How many people here has even seen an M3's interior since 2008? How many people have driven an M3? Thats mostly where my frustration comes from...

The Boss 302 is not a stripper car, I don't understand where you guys are getting this at. Furthermore, why nobody has even taken the time to look and see if it was stripped or not. It has the GT's interior, there was nothing taken out, full dash, console, seats, carpet, sound system, speakers... It will never be a fair comparison, period.. because people refuse to compare it... Nobody wants an M3 killer, because the people with M3's would moan...

You are talking about Pedders suspension video (which is fantastic suspension) but I hope you will take note that that Saleen Mustang only had 450rwhp compared to the 556rwhp Camaro... There was a problem with the axle and the problem was it needed 106 more horsepower. What was the margin of victory? Pete himself said the axle needed more room to move and they fixed the issue and found another second in the car...

I stand corrected, I guess the Mustang isn't better than the M3... I was lead to believe that performance was the milestone in which vehicles are judged... now that the Mustang is there... Its the shinny knobs, leather and the quality of plastic that is paramount.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 03:07 PM   #67
GrnMchin
Not easy being Green
 
GrnMchin's Avatar
 
Drives: 67 Nova SS
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 2,235
radz28

Yup I think the Vette is one of the top performers as well, but the initial cost of the car and insurance seems to be were cars like the Boss are quickly gaining ground. Especially when they perform at or just below the Vette. I'm looking a the Grand Sport option in a few years, but 55K starting as apposed to 41k for the Boss has me looking at the opposition. The used market favors the Vette, because you can find some great deals on them, but not likely to find a used Boss (low and limited production)
__________________
GrnMchin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 03:18 PM   #68
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
If I haven't spent the last 8 years in Asia and Europe I wouldn't know any better, My bias comes from ground level not from "I heard so". How many people here has even seen an M3's interior since 2008? How many people have driven an M3? Thats mostly where my frustration comes from...

The Boss 302 is not a stripper car, I don't understand where you guys are getting this at. Furthermore, why nobody has even taken the time to look and see if it was stripped or not. It has the GT's interior, there was nothing taken out, full dash, console, seats, carpet, sound system, speakers... It will never be a fair comparison, period.. because people refuse to compare it... Nobody wants an M3 killer, because the people with M3's would moan...

You are talking about Pedders suspension video (which is fantastic suspension) but I hope you will take note that that Saleen Mustang only had 450rwhp compared to the 556rwhp Camaro... There was a problem with the axle and the problem was it needed 106 more horsepower. What was the margin of victory? Pete himself said the axle needed more room to move and they fixed the issue and found another second in the car...

I stand corrected, I guess the Mustang isn't better than the M3... I was lead to believe that performance was the milestone in which vehicles are judged... now that the Mustang is there... Its the shinny knobs, leather and the quality of plastic that is paramount.
I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated and think everyone else is ignorant because they didn't travel the world. I'm sorry it looks to me like M3's interior is better than your ultimate car. I'm not making the comparison; Ford is.

I didn't see a back seat, nav', leather, and many other amenities; I looked at the website.

Yes - that video, and if you followed along that whole story, you would've read the 'Stang had a problem with suspension travel and the SS had bad heat-soak problems and wasn't making the same power on the track it would at the dyno'. Regardless - that heavier car with IRS still hung with the lighter Mustang.

Perhaps you should re-read some posts because all I've said is compare apples-to-apples. If you want to talk about a race car, compare it to another. If you're strictly looking for performance - fine; but not everyone only considers performance - some people want a complete package. However - don't deminish those points if you want to enter a conversation. No one like a one-sided conversation. Otherwise - maybe some Boss fanboys will welcome your knowledge, because, frankly, I'm done reading it. I conceed to your sarcasm... LET'S ALL BUY BOSS's BECAUSE 'Pill APPROVES!!!
__________________
05 Hummer H2 SUV on OEM Air Ride
Forged 11.1:1 408 LQ4 (K1 crank & rods; Mahle pistons)/CPP LS3 CNC heads/BTR Stage IV LS3 cam and valvetrain/home ported L92 intake manifold/ported 90mm TB/custom Volant CAI/mid-length headers/AFE dual 3" CB/Corvette Servo/el cheapo lift/Cognito UCAs/e'fan conversion/aluminum radiator/Moroso catchcan/HPTuners by me/LED exterior lighting/Pioneer AVH-5600BHS/Pioneer GM-9601/2-Pioneer TS-W310D4/Obcon Labyrinth dual-12 box/lots of other stuff
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 03:27 PM   #69
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrnMchin View Post
radz28

Yup I think the Vette is one of the top performers as well, but the initial cost of the car and insurance seems to be were cars like the Boss are quickly gaining ground. Especially when they perform at or just below the Vette. I'm looking a the Grand Sport option in a few years, but 55K starting as apposed to 41k for the Boss has me looking at the opposition. The used market favors the Vette, because you can find some great deals on them, but not likely to find a used Boss (low and limited production)
Good points. Yeah - that insurance isn't nice, lol. That makes sense. It's hard to argue with the Boss if you just want to go fast. It's not going to be easy to find them use, just like you said
__________________
05 Hummer H2 SUV on OEM Air Ride
Forged 11.1:1 408 LQ4 (K1 crank & rods; Mahle pistons)/CPP LS3 CNC heads/BTR Stage IV LS3 cam and valvetrain/home ported L92 intake manifold/ported 90mm TB/custom Volant CAI/mid-length headers/AFE dual 3" CB/Corvette Servo/el cheapo lift/Cognito UCAs/e'fan conversion/aluminum radiator/Moroso catchcan/HPTuners by me/LED exterior lighting/Pioneer AVH-5600BHS/Pioneer GM-9601/2-Pioneer TS-W310D4/Obcon Labyrinth dual-12 box/lots of other stuff
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #70
Stock6.0GTO
Under a Paccar
 
Drives: Sentra, Durango and Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Modesto
Posts: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
There was alot that was changed, cams, forged internals, sodium valves... It shares the block, head castings, pistons and crank with the 5.0. I will look into it though and get back to you in detail.
awesome thank you! i like to learn more about other engines, not just what i own
__________________
Sold-2006 Pontiac GTO M6 1 of 475
Not driving your car to keep miles off of it, is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will appreciate it more.
353rwhp 353rwtq
DD-06 Sentra
Project-73 Camaro
Stock6.0GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pics of American Pride Camaro at unveiling!! ssmike Camaro Photos | Spyshots | Video | Media Gallery 137 03-18-2011 06:16 PM
Anyone else had this happen? superdave99 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 112 08-14-2010 02:16 PM
What will happen to resale value of Camaros? Aquaman Chevy Camaro vs... 60 01-04-2010 11:12 PM
what will happen??? MCPOAJ General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 10 04-12-2008 11:53 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.