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Old 02-16-2012, 06:19 PM   #766
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Out of curiosity, how does a 9" or 12bolt stop the vehicle from squatting down, with lowered springs installed?



I defer to Pete who is the expert. But, my understanding is that the benefit of the 9" kit is strength to withstand high rwhp. I am having it installed because I want to reduce the risk of breaking axles, the driveshaft, or the gears in the differential.

I saw a DSS 9" kit at IPS that they had just installed in a Camaro and the components look MUCH bigger than the stock parts. It looks really beefy.

The downside of a 9" kit is that it will reduce effective rwhp (Another downside is the expense of buying and installing it.)
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:30 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by Darth_Emma View Post
I defer to Pete who is the expert. But, my understanding is that the benefit of the 9" kit is strength to withstand high rwhp. I am having it installed because I want to reduce the risk of breaking axles, the driveshaft, or the gears in the differential.

I saw a DSS 9" kit at IPS that they had just installed in a Camaro and the components look MUCH bigger than the stock parts. It looks really beefy.

The downside of a 9" kit is that it will reduce effective rwhp (Another downside is the expense of buying and installing it.)
That's what I thought. But, don't see how it may help reduce the vehicle from squatting in the back and spraying the grease, if the cause is lowering the vehicle.
Changing to a 9" is not going to strengthen the springs. Just my opinion.
Logicaly it makes sense that if you lower the vehicle you change the angle, and when things shift around you may be exceeding the flex of some rubber boots or something and exposing the grease.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:35 PM   #768
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So, if I'm understanding the response correctly. The problem may still be apparent with a 9" system unless the vehicle is put back to the original stock stance?
If we are talking about half-shaft angle and heat OE ride height or high temp lube are the solutions. With increased RWHP, better brakes and better tires compared to OE I would still opt for repacking OEM shafts with high temp lube even at OE ride height. With aftermarket shafts I would contact the MFG and verify what lube is in my shafts and repack if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Darth_Emma View Post
I defer to Pete who is the expert. But, my understanding is that the benefit of the 9" kit is strength to withstand high rwhp. I am having it installed because I want to reduce the risk of breaking axles, the driveshaft, or the gears in the differential.

I saw a DSS 9" kit at IPS that they had just installed in a Camaro and the components look MUCH bigger than the stock parts. It looks really beefy.

The downside of a 9" kit is that it will reduce effective rwhp (Another downside is the expense of buying and installing it.)
D_E I defer to you in all matters of high RWHP these days
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:03 PM   #769
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Your cost was significantly higher than mine. I thought about the Lingenfelter, but I would have had to give up the tranny this go round to go with that rear end kit in order to stay within budget. I'm not saying yours isn't worth what you paid. I'm just saying it is out of my league (at least this year).

I think I got a great kit at a great price from DSS though. The DSS kit with the Strange center section is bolt in. No modifications needed.
If the pricing for your builder was more aggressive on the DSS that makes sense...I just knew their retails weren't that far off.

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Especially when any good performance installer can put together an equal or better kit.

If I can't get what I want from one particular vendor I just have my installer work with me to plan the kit I want.
For example I may want a 9" or 9.5" housing, with 4.10+centre, strange pumpkin, and GForce 35spline axles, with a DSS driveshaft. Or different combination.

My understanding of the benefit of going with a 9" system is that it's the strongest most copied system that has the most customizations because there are so many compatible parts available for them.

I think a lot of people get stuck on vendor loyalties vs looking at requirements and getting better value for their money.
Completely disagree with most everything in this post...I'll just leave it at that.
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:47 PM   #770
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Completely disagree with most everything in this post...I'll just leave it at that.
It's okay you don't have to agree with any of it but at the very least educate me on where I'm incorrect in my assessment of selecting components for a 9" rear. Otherwise, your dis-agreement doesn't matter.

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Old 02-17-2012, 09:15 AM   #771
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If the pricing for your builder was more aggressive on the DSS that makes sense...I just knew their retails weren't that far off.
Yeah, but I just know what I had to pay would have been considerably different by the time the gears, driveshaft, and axles were paid for too.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:20 AM   #772
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I don't know that much about differentials, but I thought they weren't that far off in price.
yea.. no one at lingenfelter wanted to give me a free one... couldnt believe it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Out of curiosity, how does a 9" or 12bolt stop the vehicle from squatting down, with lowered springs installed?
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
It doesn't. The differential in an IRS remains in the same position while the half shafts move in relation to control arm articulation. There is some motion in the differential to the extent the bushings allow, but theoretically the differential doesn't move.

Spring and damping rate control squat in an IRS.
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
So, if I'm understanding the response correctly. The problem may still be apparent with a 9" system unless the vehicle is put back to the original stock stance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
If we are talking about half-shaft angle and heat OE ride height or high temp lube are the solutions. With increased RWHP, better brakes and better tires compared to OE I would still opt for repacking OEM shafts with high temp lube even at OE ride height. With aftermarket shafts I would contact the MFG and verify what lube is in my shafts and repack if necessary.
right... from what I understood from Frank... the issue would still be there, but there parts are more tolerant to the issue because of the beefiness of all the part... I think.

i just dont know why some of have this and others not. I only have a 1 inch drop... what about those with a 1.5- 2 inch drop... i would think that would almost instantaneously rip the boots.

or maybe the hp level has something to do with it too. haha.
But Russ had no issues when he was on the stock rear end with high HP... so I am still all

I know when I do get a new rear end.. from whoever... i will ask them to pre-pack it with a synthetic grease.

Also I think Frank mentioned that they now do a more secure banding than when they first started... i may have an earlier set.

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Completely disagree with most everything in this post...I'll just leave it at that.
which part do you disagree with? Mix-matching vendors?
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:26 AM   #773
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played around on the plane last night re-making this.

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Old 02-17-2012, 11:15 AM   #774
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:38 AM   #775
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yea.. no one at lingenfelter wanted to give me a free one... couldnt believe it!

right... from what I understood from Frank... the issue would still be there, but there parts are more tolerant to the issue because of the beefiness of all the part... I think.

i just dont know why some of have this and others not. I only have a 1 inch drop... what about those with a 1.5- 2 inch drop... i would think that would almost instantaneously rip the boots.

or maybe the hp level has something to do with it too. haha.
But Russ had no issues when he was on the stock rear end with high HP... so I am still all

I know when I do get a new rear end.. from whoever... i will ask them to pre-pack it with a synthetic grease.

Also I think Frank mentioned that they now do a more secure banding than when they first started... i may have an earlier set.

which part do you disagree with? Mix-matching vendors?
Improper or less than perfect installation may be a big part of the equation in relation to your greasy issue.

I don't think Russ truly understands the auto industry or has a point otherwise he would have posted his point of view.

I'm not an expert but there is one thing I realized when I jumped on this mod bandwagon a few years ago. 1. I know nothing. 2. I've learned alot but still know nothing. 3. But, I do know vendors do not make parts, they just put together kits or packages they will support and install those in your vehicle for a markup and an installation fee.

I looked at his 9.5" from LPE not suprising; The DS can be any number of makes or brands to what LPE call their own but I would guess it's a Hendrix 2pc. deal, or a 1pc from DSS, axles from DSS, centre gears from at least 2 manufacturers, housing from American Axle, and other hardware most likely from manufacturers who specialize in those industries.

So, not sure what was un-agreeable in my post, but seems to me anybody can buy an American Axle housing, put whatever centre they want, and get axles from whomever they want, with a driveshaft from whomever they want as long as it fits and will hold your power, DS is the right angle and you're all good. And, if you can save a few thousand and get equal value and quality it's all good. There is no reason why any installer who's worth his weight in salt on a skills level can't do the research and come up with a package just like DSS, LPE, Hendrix, GForce or any of the other vendors have done as most of the time they "don't make the parts". A good example of this is CAM's, everyone claims to have a this name brand CAM and that name brand CAM when in reality the most CAM's are already sitting on the shelf, or is a custom grind from COMP CAM. Making a product, is not the same as packaging a kit and branding it as your own.

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Yeah, but I just know what I had to pay would have been considerably different by the time the gears, driveshaft, and axles were paid for too.
DE I'm in so much agreement with you it's not funny. I don't see why I should pay 30-50% more for the same parts because someone put their sticker on it.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #776
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Improper or less than perfect installation may be a big part of the equation in relation to your greasy issue.

I don't think Russ truly understands the auto industry or has a point otherwise he would have posted his point of view.


DE I'm in so much agreement with you it's not funny. I don't see why I should pay 30-50% more for the same parts because someone put their sticker on it.
Maybe it was installation... but I had ARD install the first one, then another mechanic install the new ones up in Michigan. but... hmm... we will see i guess... i wil keep an eye on it.

OH... Russ knows the auto industry.. industry in general. Its part of his job.
he is also one of my good friends... I am sure he will post up his point of view when he gets to it.

I also wondered what he disagreed with... but i didnt question what he knows. SOOO Russ... get your ass out of bed and get on here. hehehe

as for the the mark up and piecing together a kit... I agree with you.. its an option... i have done it already on my car in other areas... sometimes it is just worth it to get the whole sha-bang in one spot... have the shop warranty and lean back and crack a beer.

The DSS is no different form LPE... but because of the name LPE... i think they may have a bit larger % mark up.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:29 PM   #777
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DE I'm in so much agreement with you it's not funny. I don't see why I should pay 30-50% more for the same parts because someone put their sticker on it.
I don't think the Lingenfelter kit is the same part at all. I think it's beefier and I'm a bit jealous of Russ' choice! I think he did the right thing for his build. Although I do agree there is a bit of mark up because it says "Lingenfelter" on it.

But, I also think the DSS kit will hold up to my power goals and it was within my budget.

We all have to make trade offs between what we would like to have vs what will actually do the job and we can afford.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:43 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by Darth_Emma View Post
I don't think the Lingenfelter kit is the same part at all. I think it's beefier and I'm a bit jealous of Russ' choice! I think he did the right thing for his build. Although I do agree there is a bit of mark up because it says "Lingenfelter" on it.

But, I also think the DSS kit will hold up to my power goals and it was within my budget.

We all have to make trade offs between what we would like to have vs what will actually do the job and we can afford.
I don't know if the 9.5" is so much better than a 9" kit just because it's a bigger casing. But, the casing is part of the overall kit. That is my point. Pick your case and or pumpin in some cases 9.5 or 9" put what you want in it.

The consensus form most of the "experts" I've spoke to have the opinion that the 9" is the most popular, compatible, interchangeable, rear on the market because it's been around so long. Is the 12 bolt, 10.5 or 9.5 stronger or better, I don't know for sure, but I don't think a lot of people are using them on their SS's so only time will tell once more people start using them. But, so far I have not seen or heard about anyone busting up a 9" and there are a lot of 1000rwhp. SS's floating around with them installed so I'll just base my opinion on that point alone.

I'd actually like to read Russ' point if he'll post it. I don't mind being wrong or learning something if he as feedback I'm not aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle.Gilmour View Post
Maybe it was installation... but I had ARD install the first one, then another mechanic install the new ones up in Michigan. but... hmm... we will see i guess... i wil keep an eye on it.

OH... Russ knows the auto industry.. industry in general. Its part of his job.
he is also one of my good friends... I am sure he will post up his point of view when he gets to it.

I also wondered what he disagreed with... but i didnt question what he knows. SOOO Russ... get your ass out of bed and get on here. hehehe

as for the the mark up and piecing together a kit... I agree with you.. its an option... i have done it already on my car in other areas... sometimes it is just worth it to get the whole sha-bang in one spot... have the shop warranty and lean back and crack a beer.

The DSS is no different form LPE... but because of the name LPE... i think they may have a bit larger % mark up.
I don't know Russ personally, so I'd like to know what he's referring to as well and if he's in the auto industry that's all good perhaps I'll swallow prevous assumption and learn something if he'll reply. I questioned what he knows because he didn't post what he knows that I may not. However, I don't think anything I said was not on point for the most part.

Last edited by calbert1999; 02-17-2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:25 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
It's okay you don't have to agree with any of it but at the very least educate me on where I'm incorrect in my assessment of selecting components for a 9" rear. Otherwise, your dis-agreement doesn't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
Improper or less than perfect installation may be a big part of the equation in relation to your greasy issue.

I don't think Russ truly understands the auto industry or has a point otherwise he would have posted his point of view.

I'm not an expert but there is one thing I realized when I jumped on this mod bandwagon a few years ago. 1. I know nothing. 2. I've learned alot but still know nothing. 3. But, I do know vendors do not make parts, they just put together kits or packages they will support and install those in your vehicle for a markup and an installation fee.

I looked at his 9.5" from LPE not suprising; The DS can be any number of makes or brands to what LPE call their own but I would guess it's a Hendrix 2pc. deal, or a 1pc from DSS, axles from DSS, centre gears from at least 2 manufacturers, housing from American Axle, and other hardware most likely from manufacturers who specialize in those industries.

So, not sure what was un-agreeable in my post, but seems to me anybody can buy an American Axle housing, put whatever centre they want, and get axles from whomever they want, with a driveshaft from whomever they want as long as it fits and will hold your power, DS is the right angle and you're all good. And, if you can save a few thousand and get equal value and quality it's all good. There is no reason why any installer who's worth his weight in salt on a skills level can't do the research and come up with a package just like DSS, LPE, Hendrix, GForce or any of the other vendors have done as most of the time they "don't make the parts". A good example of this is CAM's, everyone claims to have a this name brand CAM and that name brand CAM when in reality the most CAM's are already sitting on the shelf, or is a custom grind from COMP CAM. Making a product, is not the same as packaging a kit and branding it as your own.


DE I'm in so much agreement with you it's not funny. I don't see why I should pay 30-50% more for the same parts because someone put their sticker on it.
It might just be the way I'm reading your posts, but you're kind of coming off like an ass. I posted last night before I left my office, and just got back on. I love Kyle's build thread, but can't live in here.

This wasn't a DSS VS Lingenfelter discussion. This is my friend Kyle's build thread. I was simply reminding him of his options.

I've never once claimed to be an expert, but like you I've learned over the last two years of watching my car being built. I research a lot, and purchase what I want. I may get other opinions, but don't let other people make my decisions for me. As Kyle can tell you, I'm also very good at getting deals on everything I buy.

It's very important to me that my disagreement matters to you, so I'll give you my points so we can get back to Kyle's build.

In your original post I disagreed with your assumption that I'd somehow purchased the 9.5" because it had a Lingenfelter sticker on it. I purchased it because I think it's the most solid rear end out there for our car. I have no loyalty to them, and completely understand that they don't build their components.

I also disagreed that just any good installer can go build this kit.

The center section was designed and built by American Axle, and it's my understanding that Lingenfelter has an exclusive with them for this housing, so Pete's Power Performance can't get them. The housing and center section (w/ gears) come as one unit. I liked the fact that this was custom designed for the Camaro, and wasn't a modified Ford piece.

The axles (and I'm sure the driveshaft) come from DSS. They are also custom built for the housing, and don't think they can be purchased directly from DSS.

I will probably end up making about 1000HP, but I also thought I was going to stop at exhaust. I wanted the most solid rear end I could find, and I still think this is it. If that cost me a few hundred more so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle.Gilmour View Post
Maybe it was installation... but I had ARD install the first one, then another mechanic install the new ones up in Michigan. but... hmm... we will see i guess... i wil keep an eye on it.

OH... Russ knows the auto industry.. industry in general. Its part of his job.
he is also one of my good friends... I am sure he will post up his point of view when he gets to it.

I also wondered what he disagreed with... but i didnt question what he knows. SOOO Russ... get your ass out of bed and get on here. hehehe

as for the the mark up and piecing together a kit... I agree with you.. its an option... i have done it already on my car in other areas... sometimes it is just worth it to get the whole sha-bang in one spot... have the shop warranty and lean back and crack a beer.

The DSS is no different form LPE... but because of the name LPE... i think they may have a bit larger % mark up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Emma View Post
I don't think the Lingenfelter kit is the same part at all. I think it's beefier and I'm a bit jealous of Russ' choice! I think he did the right thing for his build. Although I do agree there is a bit of mark up because it says "Lingenfelter" on it.

But, I also think the DSS kit will hold up to my power goals and it was within my budget.

We all have to make trade offs between what we would like to have vs what will actually do the job and we can afford.
Kyle...you're killing me.

I don't have anything to do with the auto industry, although I think I spend more time at Owen's shop than my house.

Emma's correct...I don't think the kits are the same, which is why I bought the bigger rear end. Of course there will be some costs differences because they're not using the modified Ford housing. American Axle made a completely new custom tool for our car, and obviously Lingenfelter is going to make some money on it.

At retail the DSS comes with axles and driveshaft for $5K, but the Strange center with gears is another $1.5K. I'm assuming there's only one center, and not more money for other upgrades. TOTAL: $6500.00

The Lingenfelter is 5K, but comes pre-loaded with gears, (in my case 3.73s). It doesn't include the axles or driveshaft. The axles are 1.5K, which puts the price the same as the DSS. The piece that's missing at this point is the driveshaft. If you purchase the 1 piece aluminum from Lingenfelter it's an additional 1K. Instead I had a custom aluminum piece built for me, saving me a lot. At the end of the day it was worth a few hundred dollars for me.

These are only retail comparisons. If DSS has some heavier discounts on their kit, then I completely understand and still think it's a great product.
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:25 PM   #780
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I'm not answering for him but I do remember him saying the LPE 9.5" he purchased is the same that LPE is running in their 8.99 second Camaro.

That's pretty strong
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #781
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I love Kyle's build thread, but can't live in here.

Kyle...you're killing me.
yessss... you can.

and.... if i bust anyones balls... it will be yours
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:52 PM   #782
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right... from what I understood from Frank... the issue would still be there, but there parts are more tolerant to the issue because of the beefiness of all the part... I think.

i just dont know why some of have this and others not. I only have a 1 inch drop... what about those with a 1.5- 2 inch drop... i would think that would almost instantaneously rip the boots.

or maybe the hp level has something to do with it too. haha.
But Russ had no issues when he was on the stock rear end with high HP... so I am still all

I know when I do get a new rear end.. from whoever... i will ask them to pre-pack it with a synthetic grease.

Also I think Frank mentioned that they now do a more secure banding than when they first started... i may have an earlier set.
We'll find the answer in your reply to these questions.

How many miles are on your half shafts?
How many passes do you have at the strip on your half shafts?
How many hard laps do you have on your half-shafts?
What gears are you running?
What wheel and tire package do you run on the street?
What wheel and tire package do you run at the track?
RWHP? Eleventy-billion?
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