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Old 03-13-2011, 10:01 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PQ View Post
The TC is definitely something I will be doing down the road.

My car is a bit underpowered considering the mods. Blown with all the components and only 471rwhp. Ya, the wheels don't help, but guys with 22s have had better numbers. I'm not neccesarily chasing a number, because I wouldn't know what number to chase, but I do think I'm underpowered now, considering. Maybe my borla headers with the small primaries is hurting? Nto sure, but If I'm gonna do a cam, I want the max power benefit I can safely get.
Jeez, only 471! How do you get by! that would be more than enough for me if I wanted a nice daily driver.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mlee View Post
Are costs a factor here?... I was trying to spread out costs for you. If you know what cam you want, the TC and Cam are two completely separate installs. Also, sticky tires are probably the most important thing... All 3 of these can be staged out at different times. Tires being first. I hit the track last weekend on DR's and still couldn't hook with the TC.
Cost is a factor, but cost that makes sense. If it makes sense to me to pay more, then I will. Just may take longer.

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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
Randy, the best advice I can offer is to be careful in the LSA or overlap of the cam you choose... (lobe separation angle). With a boosted motor, too small of an angle and you are pushing boost out the tailpipe... If I remember correctly what I've learned... The big rump rump cams have small LSA's and that's where part of the shimmy shimmy shake comes from... They sound old school amazing, but are not the best choice... My cam of choice which would serve you very well for a 66-7 without VVT has a LSA of 121 degrees. My thread has the box end in a picture where you can see the rest of the specs...I listened to a CTSV caddy with the same cam, wicked sounding, very drivable, and making 638 hp with a few other minor goodies...6speed manual trans mixer, but none the less... good luck... And get some suspension going or you leaving HP and rubber on the asphalt..I'll see you in about 4 weeks... If you want to, I'll let you try a set of 18 inch wheels and MT drag radials for a pass... But not in the pass against me... Well, that might make it fair for you...
But the 'LSA' changes at different times with a VVT right?

Gets confusing to me.

I may take you up on the wheel borrowing. Of course, not against you or Chris......

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Originally Posted by klatterblast View Post
PQ i have a magnacharged , dod delete, tci super harmonic balancer, cammed w/comp single bolt cam 223/236 .610"/.608" 117+4 lsa from thunder racing, stock torque converter, runs and sounds great.
Sounds awesome. What made ou decide on that?

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Wooh! PQ are you as overwhelmed as I am lol looks like you got some big decisions to make.


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Originally Posted by zebra View Post
702 632 0270
ask for Jeff (the guy @ TPE i was trying to call on the way to Jax) - he does blower cams for LS engines every day Where is he at?

at least you're open to opinions. heck... i wanted to cam the truck before i did headers. glad i didn't - i wouldn't've seen a lot of benefit with the manifolds restricting the crap out of it. LOL, I am trying to be open and patient.

that's what a cam without a stall would do (especially with them clown-shoe wheels ya got), it'd be such a dog off the line that you'd facepalm yourself all the way through first gear every time Clown shoes.....



just like Doc told me with my blower - it's best to just hold your horses, save up & do it all together. that way you save the headache of going in twice (yeah, you're going in 2 places, but the principle stands).


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Originally Posted by Huggerorange73 View Post
If I was you...this is what I would do :

1. Rear subframe cradle inserts
2. Trailing arms ( do the rear bushing as well, only the Pfadt trailing arms come with both the front & the rear )
3. Drag radials ( worst case, put them on your stock 20" wheels )
4. Decide how much power you want to add
5. Big power => LS3 conversion ( match stall to cam choice )
6. Smaller gains => VVT cam swap ( match stall to cam choice )


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Originally Posted by jsharp View Post
You probably wont get a lot of "valuable" information on one vs the other right now from members other than the ones with LS3 conversion say:
I have better/wider cam selection
I have good lifters now which shops say is a weak point
I spend more money lol
I think I have an ls3 now?

Those with VVT:
I have the best of both worlds
Its cheaper and easier to install
I kept my weak lifters or I chose a VVT cam with afm delete and got rid of them for a little more money.
I gained more low end torque then you LS3 guys and maintained Same hp as your cam.

If you want a big comparision what you see from the vendors is the best for now as really VVT cams for the camaro are just now starting to get into peoples mind and engines. If you want more one vs the other from actual drivers then wait. That will give you some time to do the other things!!! Not only do you have to decide ls3 vs VVT but also VVT vs VVT with afm delete
If I want tried and true, I do the conversion. It would be the safest way out for sure. Less variables.

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Originally Posted by Milk 1027 View Post
I don;t understand why people are saying LS3 conversion is the only way for big power.
Many L99's are making big power on VVT cams. Granted, some of these results are with heads too.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...hlight=VVT+cam
Lots of different factors though. My blower for one.

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Originally Posted by Darth_Emma View Post
Something to consider is that the LS3 conversion leaves you open to MOAR POWER later. But then, you're not likely to want that.
I'll be done after this.

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Originally Posted by Huggerorange73 View Post
Because my LS3 with a sub .600 lift is at 470 RWHP without touching the heads.

Not knocking those 2 threads, trust me....475 RWHP out of a VVT L99 is stout, but you can make some insane power numbers with a big cam in a LS3 that you simply can't stuff in an L99 because of the lifters, and possibly piston to valve clearance.
I don't want to worry about clearance. Just put a cam in and enjoy.

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To make that big power with VVT the lifters still have to come out, so once the heads come off it's decision time. I opted to go LS3.. sitting at 462hp now.
Exactly. If I gotta take the heads off, it's LS3 conversion and be done with it.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:04 PM   #53
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I'm a complete amateur at this, but I've never heard of installing a cam with a blower and not losing boost. Please enlighten me.
It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:07 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...
So is anything else limited at that point? Lope? Power?
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:07 PM   #55
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PQ, have you thought about bigger headers if you do a cam. There might be some gain if you do. I didnt read this entire thread but don't you have 1 3/4's.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:08 PM   #56
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PQ, I believe the LSA with VVT is where you get into the +... Cams, but don't quote me on that...
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:12 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...
This, very much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post
So is anything else limited at that point? Lope? Power?
Lope is created by LSA....what you're hearing is the valves both being open at the same time. You can retain power with a cam and a blower by using a narrow LSA to limit the amount of time the valves overlap.

I'm on a 113 LSA.....sounds great, but not what you want with a blower.

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PQ, have you thought about bigger headers if you do a cam. There might be some gain if you do. I didnt read this entire thread but don't you have 1 3/4's.
Bigger headers hurt boost....same thought process, air is leaving in more volume...that's why you have to swap the pulley out to get back boost lost with headers.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:12 PM   #58
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So is anything else limited at that point? Lope? Power?
Power is better with the right cam, boost in the cylinders makes more power, and the lope is related to the smaller overlap, which is ok/good for NA motors...like someone else mentioned, with boost, and big cams, be sure to upgrade the springs, valves and pistons kissing is a death sentence...

As an aside to the springs comment, bear in mind these are pretty big valves in these heads, so, think of an umbrella in a hurricane... Big valves and big boost require schwzeneggar springs... I'll be Bach...Is knot a tumah
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
PQ, I believe the LSA with VVT is where you get into the +... Cams, but don't quote me on that...
The " + " you see following the LSA is advance thats ground into the camshaft already.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:16 PM   #60
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It primarily has to do with LSA and then duration... If the LSA is too small, then the exhaust and intake valves are both open at the same time... This can also be affected by the duration. The exhaust valve can still be open when the intake valve opens, thus, boost swirls through the chamber and out the exhaust valve...reduction in boost...limit the duration, and open the LSA and you retain the boost where you want it, in the cylinder... Basically, you want the exhaust valve closed when the intake valve opens...
If I do the conversion then I don't have to worry about all that right? Just get a cam that I know works and put it in.

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PQ, have you thought about bigger headers if you do a cam. There might be some gain if you do. I didnt read this entire thread but don't you have 1 3/4's.
No way. I'm not gonna spend money on headers when I already have some. I LOVE the sound of these.

Ya, I have 1 3/4 and it may actually be good so as to not lose as much boost when I cam it. It would seem anyway.

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PQ, I believe the LSA with VVT is where you get into the +... Cams, but don't quote me on that...
Ya, I have to do some more reading. But, again, if I just pull the heads, It becomes much easier.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:21 PM   #61
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You'll need bigger headers for that cam. Yes, you will produce less boost but make more power. Less boost = safer
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
Power is better with the right cam, boost in the cylinders makes more power, and the lope is related to the smaller overlap, which is ok/good for NA motors...like someone else mentioned, with boost, and big cams, be sure to upgrade the springs, valves and pistons kissing is a death sentence...
OK...a vein just popped out of my head. You guys know way more about this than I do.

My Whipple and cam were installed at the same time. The 4" pulley that ships with the Whipple is typically supposed to produce 9lbs of boost. Mine was at 7.3lbs. I had headers, catback exhaust, intake and a cam. Was the drop just a combination of all of the above?
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:22 PM   #63
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Don't have to worry about all what... The VVT, or the LSA and duration... VVT goes away, then get a suitable cam for boost... My cam is a 121 degree separation, awesome sounding, and works great with boosted motors...
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If I do the conversion then I don't have to worry about all that right? Just get a cam that I know works and put it in.

No way. I'm not gonna spend money on headers when I already have some. I LOVE the sound of these.

Ya, I have 1 3/4 and it may actually be good so as to not lose as much boost when I cam it. It would seem anyway.

Ya, I have to do some more reading. But, again, if I just pull the heads, It becomes much easier.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:22 PM   #64
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OK...a vein just popped out of my head. You guys know way more about this than I do.

My Whipple and cam were installed at the same time. The 4" pulley that ships with the Whipple is typically supposed to produce 9lbs of boost. Mine was at 7.3lbs. I had headers, catback exhaust, intake and a cam. Was the drop just a combination of all of the above?
You got it!
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:27 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post
OK...a vein just popped out of my head. You guys know way more about this than I do.

My Whipple and cam were installed at the same time. The 4" pulley that ships with the Whipple is typically supposed to produce 9lbs of boost. Mine was at 7.3lbs. I had headers, catback exhaust, intake and a cam. Was the drop just a combination of all of the above?
Without knowing the specs on the cam, it's hard to say...lots of shops will install a rump rump cam for the sound, but, that's not always the best thing... Do you have your specs... And I'm not slamming any shops or peeps... Just throwing info, what little I know out there...

About a year ago, Someone did a good write up, not specifically about this, but this was included...wish I could remember who, might have been Ted...
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:29 PM   #66
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Hey Randy...it may not have as much lope as mlee's, but I'm pretty happy with my mild VVT cam.

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Old 03-13-2011, 10:30 PM   #67
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OK...a vein just popped out of my head. You guys know way more about this than I do.

My Whipple and cam were installed at the same time. The 4" pulley that ships with the Whipple is typically supposed to produce 9lbs of boost. Mine was at 7.3lbs. I had headers, catback exhaust, intake and a cam. Was the drop just a combination of all of the above?
What he said. Cam + headers = less boost but more power. Take that out of your equation and blam, there's your 9 lbs.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:30 PM   #68
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Without knowing the specs on the cam, it's hard to say...lots of shops will install a rump rump cam for the sound, but, that's not always the best thing... Do you have your specs... And I'm not slamming any shops or peeps... Just throwing info, what little I know out there...

About a year ago, Someone did a good write up, not specifically about this, but this was included...wish I could remember who, might have been Ted...
Headers and the cam are the biggest factors in it....a good tuner/ builder is not going to let you put the wrong cam in it PQ!
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:31 PM   #69
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Bigger headers hurt boost....same thought process, air is leaving in more volume...that's why you have to swap the pulley out to get back boost lost with headers.
Which is why my 1 3/4 primaried headers may actually work just fine with a cam. Or am I off base on that?

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You'll need bigger headers for that cam. Yes, you will produce less boost but make more power. Less boost = safer
But if I keep the boost shouldnt' I be able to make more power and find a happy medium with the whole aspiration process?

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Don't have to worry about all what... The VVT, or the LSA and duration... VVT goes away, then get a suitable cam for boost... My cam is a 121 degree separation, awesome sounding, and works great with boosted motors...
Worry about LSA. Because it will be constant with a non-VVT cam. With a VVT cam it can change, right?
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:32 PM   #70
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What he said. Cam + headers = less boost but more power. Take that out of your equation and blam, there's your 9 lbs.
That's what I thought, but I guess I figured the cam made most of the drop.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:32 PM   #71
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What we have here is a failure to communicate...

we need to check with some of the more reputable and well known builders and have a few of them offer up some really good info on cam selection, without giving up proprietary info,, and make a sticky in the forced induction page....we have one for catch cans, and other items... ...

I learned most of what I know from Corey, my builder, and please forgive me if I got any of it wrong...
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:34 PM   #72
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My cam is more oriented to a N/A setup, but I wanted more so I threw on the D1. After the tuning, and making well over 600rwhp. I left things alone. Can I make more power with a "blower" cam? Sure. My current cam makes power up high, and so does the D1.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:35 PM   #73
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Here's the best way to think about this....

Your engine is an air pump....GM did the best job they could to make good power and keep emissions in check.

Of course, the supplied power level isn't good enough...so what do we do? Add CAI and cams. Help get more air in the engine, which in turn makes more power.
But now for that air pump to work at max output, you now have a restriction in the exhaust. What do we do? Slap headers on....now the air can get out as fast as it gets in!

Great for NA, not so much for boost....the OEM backpressure helps make that 9 PSI of boost. Once the air pump becomes more efficient by adding headers, now you're losing boost pressure in the combustion chamber. What do we do then? Slap a pully on the blower to make more boost!

Bottom line? WE'RE ALL NUTS!
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:38 PM   #74
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Quote:
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About a year ago, Someone did a good write up, not specifically about this, but this was included...wish I could remember who, might have been Ted...
Might have been Spike.

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Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post
Hey Randy...it may not have as much lope as mlee's, but I'm pretty happy with my mild VVT cam.
That actually sounds perfect.

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What he said. Cam + headers = less boost but more power. Take that out of your equation and blam, there's your 9 lbs.
So if I'm at 7.3 pounds of boost now, and I put a cam in it should drop less because of my smaller headers, then I can drop a pulley size and get it back. But If I lose less boost that's good right?

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Headers and the cam are the biggest factors in it....a good tuner/ builder is not going to let you put the wrong cam in it PQ!
Well, this is another part of this thread. To find out if I want to install it myself.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:39 PM   #75
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Quote:
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What he said. Cam + headers = less boost but more power. Take that out of your equation and blam, there's your 9 lbs.
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Headers and the cam are the biggest factors in it....a good tuner/ builder is not going to let you put the wrong cam in it PQ!
Now we're learning... Answer me this... If the LSA is correct, and the duration is limited, and both valves are not open at the same time, why would it cost you boost?

Maybe it's not possible for them to both be closed at the same time, during the exhaust/intake overlap...

If it is possible, and this occurs, where is the boost going... Is it due to the scavenge effect of the headers... Thus the larger tubes being better due to less effect secondary to a larger area and thus slower velocities... Or am I thinking wrong here...
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