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Old 04-27-2011, 11:23 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningSS View Post
A bigger washer only helps somewhat to ease the bracket distortion due to twisting (main problem). It doesn't help at all with tension load (and tension load is definitely a factor). That is what the little feet on the Pfadt fitting do.

The last two Pfadt FEM images show the tension story. The bright red is reduced. It will never disappear becasue this will alway be the area of highest stress regardless of the load value. It's a matter of reducing the magnitude of that stress realtive to what the material can handle.

The Pfadt clip addresses both twisting and tension pretty well. I only wonder about fatigue failure of the "feet" over time.
But the top can still bend back and forth. Especially when the two plates will essentially be side by side and able to slide on one another. I'm saying to make it full proof the two should be welded at the top creating strength at the top of he tab. the problem starts at the top due to flexing. It's obvious to me. BOTH my control arms were the same.

I think Pete makes much more sense here. And he actually HAS my two control arms. He didn't just look at a picture of a completely failed arm and put up a drawing 'showing' failure. The second illustrations don't even match the first. Pfadts plates WELDED at the top would be more full proof. Strength at the top is where this problem will be solved, and not just elliviatied for a while.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:44 PM   #252
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I'm no engineer, and I don't have CAD drawings or anything, but just an observer. To me the problem is at the top of the arm bracket. Because the ball joint in the end link allows the stud to move in relationship to the endlink itself, the stud is not always perpendicular to the endlink and the arm bracket. That can be seen in how the bracket bends in at the top, because of the lever effect of the stud being applied at an angle of less than 90*, near the top of the compression stroke. The length of the arm is a "breaker bar" effect on the endlink stud. The weak spot, and where the leverage force is applied is the top of the bracket. Bigger diameter washers may help, but it looks to my uneducated eyes that the bracket needs to be thicker (and supported all the way down the back or front side). Bolt-on my work, but IMHO welding would be better.

My 2 cents.
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:56 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by My 5th View Post
I'm no engineer, and I don't have CAD drawings or anything, but just an observer. To me the problem is at the top of the arm bracket. Because the ball joint in the end link allows the stud to move in relationship to the endlink itself, the stud is not always perpendicular to the endlink and the arm bracket. That can be seen in how the bracket bends in at the top, because of the lever effect of the stud being applied at an angle of less than 90*, near the top of the compression stroke. The length of the arm is a "breaker bar" effect on the endlink stud. The weak spot, and where the leverage force is applied is the top of the bracket. Bigger diameter washers may help, but it looks to my uneducated eyes that the bracket needs to be thicker (and supported all the way down the back or front side). Bolt-on my work, but IMHO welding would be better.

My 2 cents.
Well said.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:09 PM   #254
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But the top can still bend back and forth. Especially when the two plates will essentially be side by side and able to slide on one another. I'm saying to make it full proof the two should be welded at the top creating strength at the top of he tab. the problem starts at the top due to flexing. It's obvious to me. BOTH my control arms were the same.

I think Pete makes much more sense here. And he actually HAS my two control arms. He didn't just look at a picture of a completely failed arm and put up a drawing 'showing' failure. The second illustrations don't even match the first. Pfadts plates WELDED at the top would be more full proof. Strength at the top is where this problem will be solved, and not just alleviated for a while.
PQ,

Within the parameters of the OE arm, anything that is not welded will prolong the life of the arm, but not eliminate the problem. A welded fix is the best solution so you are correct.

Everyone,

Please allow me to remind everyone that the number of failures are very limited. We all want to make our 5th Gens as reliable as possible, while we also understand this particular failure is limited in scope. That is easier said than done when PQ has had an issue in both of his arms :( The more you build out your suspension, the less frequently you will see a failure in the LCA endlink tab. I write this so you all purchase full Justice Packages today

I write this because it is accurate. The worst case scenario for the LCA tab failure is a big rear bar and nothing else. With only the rear bar, the bar is doing the heavy lifting without any assistance from the rest of the IRS. Add Supercars with higher than OE coil rates, higher critical damping and a lowered vehicle with a lower CG and they are 'sharing' the load. A Street Xa or Supercar Street with OE bars is a phenomenally well mannered 5th Gen with OE bars. You get the idea.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:14 PM   #255
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The more you build out your suspension, the less frequently you will see a failure in the LCA endlink tab. I write this so you all purchase full Justice Packages today

I write this because it is accurate. The worst case scenario for the LCA tab failure is a big rear bar and nothing else. With only the rear bar, the bar is doing the heavy lifting without any assistance from the rest of the IRS. Add Supercars with higher than OE coil rates, higher critical damping and a lowered vehicle with a lower CG and they are 'sharing' the load. A Street Xa or Supercar Street with OE bars is a phenomenally well mannered 5th Gen with OE bars. You get the idea.
So does this mean with upgraded cradle inserts, lowering springs, sway bars, trailing arms and toe links this failure is less likely to happen?

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like throwing a upgraded rear sway on the car with nothing else will likely lead to a failure.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:20 PM   #256
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So does this mean with upgraded cradle inserts, lowering springs, sway bars, trailing arms and toe links this failure is less likely to happen?

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like throwing a upgraded rear sway on the car with nothing else will likely lead to a failure.
You are spot on correct, with the caveat that there are VERY FEW FAILURES. Over time I would expect to see some failures in a complete OE setup again with the caveat towards the number of miles. 150K? 250? Every chassis has a weak point. Weak is relative. The 5th Gen has a GREAT CHASSIS and IRS.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:22 PM   #257
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You are spot on correct, with the caveat that there are VERY FEW FAILURES. Over time I would expect to see some failures in a complete OE setup again with the caveat towards the number of miles. 150K? 250? Every chassis has a weak point. Weak is relative. The 5th Gen has a GREAT CHASSIS and IRS.
Then I should be in great shape....I agree with you that GM did a fantastic job with this platform.

And, I'd like to thank you for all you're doing for the community
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:23 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
You are spot on correct, with the caveat that there are VERY FEW FAILURES. Over time I would expect to see some failures in a complete OE setup again with the caveat towards the number of miles. 150K? 250? Every chassis has a weak point. Weak is relative. The 5th Gen has a GREAT CHASSIS and IRS.
So, not to throw Tag under the bus.

But his bent endlink Tab must have happened before he put the sways, springs and bushings on?

Seems to me this is not limited to aftermarket sways. just me thinking out loud...
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:24 PM   #259
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So, not to throw Tag under the bus.

But his bent endlink Tab must have happened before he put the sways, springs and bushings on?

Seems to me this is not limited to aftermarket sways. just me thinking out loud...
Yes sir.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:27 PM   #260
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Then I should be in great shape....I agree with you that GM did a fantastic job with this platform.

And, I'd like to thank you for all you're doing for the community
Being part of the 5th Gen Community is obviously good for business, but it is also personal. Camaro5 has introduced me to so many great people who have become good friends. Thank you all for allowing us to be part of it.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:31 PM   #261
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Being part of the 5th Gen Community is obviously good for business, but it is also personal. Camaro5 has introduced me to so many great people who have become good friends. Thank you all for allowing us to be part of it.
No, thank YOU for being part of it.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:14 PM   #262
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To create a robust endlink tab, we believe welding is essential. A water jet cut piece would be placed in the arm. A bolt would be used to secure the laser cut reinforcement while welding. The water jet cut piece would extend to the bottom of the arm.



The water jet cut reinforcement would also be taller than the OE tab.



A heavy bead weld would add strength to the weakest point of the endlink tab. It is illustrated by a straw in this photo.



Welds in the corners and at the base of the arm would secure the reinforcement. Long tern, there should be no significant changes to load points in the arm. Put another way, we do not believe there will be any durability issues.

We know that some of you will use this concept to immediately reinforce your arms. That is cool and one reason we posted it. This fix will require the arm be removed, welded and reinstalled. We are working with a partner to create an exchange program in addition to the release of the water jet cut part. We should be able to make an announcement on that very quickly.

One more note. Pedders will not be making this part as it is out of our normal range of operation. We think the OEM guys are very sharp. We do our very best to work within the constraints of the OEM design and hardware. Our research on this was done to address a need in the Camaro5 Community. When we pass this over to our partner in crime, we will make nothing. Consider this Pedders repaying the Camaro community for their loyalty to Pedders and the purchases you have made and hopefully will continue to make.
This is definitely the best "rework" solution. I would suggest bending a flange at the top rather then a weld bead though. That will greatly improve the resistance to twisting. Just be sure to check the flange won't hit anything when the wheel is at max "up" position.

Pfadt is trying to make the simplest solution, i.e. no welding. It is pretty good as is, but as PQ says a little welding across the top and on the angled edges would greatly improve it. The more you can share the tension load with the original LCA structure the better.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:59 PM   #263
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This is definitely the best "rework" solution. I would suggest bending a flange at the top rather then a weld bead though. That will greatly improve the resistance to twisting. Just be sure to check the flange won't hit anything when the wheel is at max "up" position.

Pfadt is trying to make the simplest solution, i.e. no welding. It is pretty good as is, but as PQ says a little welding across the top and on the angled edges would greatly improve it. The more you can share the tension load with the original LCA structure the better.


I think Pfadts brakets made wider on top and welded would do the trick.

As it is they just seem like wheel weights on a brake caliper. Hopefully either way the problem will go away. could get quite expensive for anyone who can't change them out themselves.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:48 PM   #264
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I think Pfadt should also put a bent flange on top of their bracket too instead of matching the chamfered LCA bracket.

Anybody that wished to could add some welds along the chamfered edge to the new bracket and really benefit then.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:49 PM   #265
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No, thank YOU for being part of it.
+1

Working together will always produce the best solutions.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:37 PM   #266
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I figured I would get these up so that people can see what's now available to correct this issue. These little guys from Pfadt Racing just easily handled the very same complaint from one of our customers.



So here is the totally basic installation. These support plates DO NOT require welding at all. They simply brace under the control arm with locating tabs that also directly locate the plate for the bolt hole for the lower end link mount.



The support plates add the thickness and the proper hole diameter for the end link mounting tab and give it MORE than enough support for the loads placed on the plate.



But just because we can...... we TIG welded the plates in place on the top and sides to give our customer the piece of mind knowing he has a permanent solution to the rear end noise concern he was having.



Props to Pfadt Racing for another great part!!!!!!!!!

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Old 04-28-2011, 08:24 PM   #267
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I was under my car tonight ivestigating a creaking noise comming from the trunk area, low and behold what do I find? Same problem. The passanger side lower control arm bracket is broken. It has not compleatly let go yet, but it will soon. Guess what, Pfadt drop springs and sways... I would post pics but it's getting too dark to be jacking up the car and pulling the wheel off tonight.

I wanted springs and sways to help the car handle better just like everyone else. I didn't sign up for this kind of failure. Nuts were tight when installed and rechecked after 100 and 1000 miles after bar install. WTF?
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:13 PM   #268
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I figured I would get these up so that people can see what's now available to correct this issue. These little guys from Pfadt Racing just easily handled the very same complaint from one of our customers.

So here is the totally basic installation. These support plates DO NOT require welding at all. They simply brace under the control arm with locating tabs that also directly locate the plate for the bolt hole for the lower end link mount.


The support plates add the thickness and the proper hole diameter for the end link mounting tab and give it MORE than enough support for the loads placed on the plate.


But just because we can...... we TIG welded the plates in place on the top and sides to give our customer the piece of mind knowing he has a permanent solution to the rear end noise concern he was having.


Props to Pfadt Racing for another great part!!!!!!!!!
OK, the Pfadt solution will help.

But I dont' see how it is going to prevent the tab from bending due to the lateral force applied to it by the stronger Aftermarket swaybar. In my mind the hooks that lock the Pfadt plate in are not nearly robust enough to keep the back side of the tab, where the end link "ball joint" touches the tab, from fatiguing over time. The leverage from the endlink will still be applied to the back or inboard side of the tab.

So, Yes I'm sure Pfadt's plate will help but IMO the best solution is what Pedders recommends. Their new piece is on the inboard side which is where all the pressure is applied from the ball joint side of the endlink. Not the out board side where the Pfadt plate is...

The Pfadt solution is great and will absolutely increase the life of the tab, but it's not going to prevent failures to the same degree the Pedders idea will.

Again, In my very humble opinion, welding in a piece on the inboard side of the end link Tab all the way to the bottom of the LCA and having it welded on to the top, or even better, bent over the top of the endlink tab and welded, would be the best way to stop the tabs from failing.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:31 PM   #269
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OK, the Pfadt solution will help.

But I dont' see how it is going to prevent the tab from bending due to the lateral force applied to it by the stronger Aftermarket swaybar. In my mind the hooks that lock the Pfadt plate in are not nearly robust enough to keep the back side of the tab, where the end link "ball joint" touches the tab, from fatiguing over time. The leverage from the endlink will still be applied to the back or inboard side of the tab.

So, Yes I'm sure Pfadt's plate will help but IMO the best solution is what Pedders recommends. Their new piece is on the inboard side which is where all the pressure is applied from the ball joint side of the endlink. Not the out board side where the Pfadt plate is...

The Pfadt solution is great and will absolutely increase the life of the tab, but it's not going to prevent failures to the same degree the Pedders idea will.

Again, In my very humble opinion, welding in a piece on the inboard side of the end link Tab all the way to the bottom of the LCA and having it welded on to the top, or even better, bent over the top of the endlink tab and welded, would be the best way to stop the tabs from failing.
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Those tabs aren't very beefy. What's to say they won't break off or straighten out over time? What type of metal are they made from? What kind of R&D testing was done on these? I've read some of your post that say there are a lot of stresses in this area which is pretty obvious from PQ's pictures. Why Not just weld a plate onto the existing bracket instead of relying on those tabs? Not trying to nick pick. I just want to know before I buy. I know they don't cost much and that they have to help but for how long. I wonder If GM addressed this issues on the ZL1.

MY post from the other thread. Your not alone on this.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:45 PM   #270
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More and more people are seeing failure here. Glad I spend so much time under my car.

I wonder how many people have this problem and don't even know it.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:46 PM   #271
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GM has redesigned the rear sway bar and how it mounts to the car on the ZL1
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:47 PM   #272
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More and more people are seeing failure here. Glad I spend so much time under my car.

I wonder how many people have this problem and don't even know it.

Glad you did find it. I'd hate to be going 160+ in the 1/4 and have it let loose. Scary.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:47 PM   #273
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Glad you did find it. I'd hate to be going 160+ in the 1/4 and have it let loose. Scary.


I feel like I should appologize to everyone.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:48 PM   #274
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GM has redesigned the rear sway bar and how it mounts to the car on the ZL1
It sounds like they need to consider this across the board. At least on all the V-8 versions.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:49 PM   #275
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It sounds like they need to consider this across the board. At least on all the V-8 versions.
I just hope it will fit the SS with the aftermarket coilovers.
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