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Old 05-04-2011, 02:11 PM   #337
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There has been a lot of discussion about what is creating the problem and whose solution is better. This is not a recent issue. Our customer base extends well outside of the Camaro5 community and, although we had to deal with this issue personally on our own car over a year ago, we had seen it first-hand at the drag strip on two separate occasions last summer. Failures have also been reported to our tech lines from time-to-time and most of these were street cars.

There are multiple reasons for these failures. Some are loose end link nuts, some are from binding aftermarket end links, but most are from aftermarket sway bars overloading the mount. With a sway bar mount so close to the fulcrum of the control arm, you are asking that single shear, 1/8" bracket to do a lot. Just to give you an idea of the load required of this mount consider this: Using the stiffest setting of our street sway bar, it takes 1648 pounds of load to twist the bar one inch. This load gets even greater with more suspension movement. On top of that you have to take into account that the load is offset from the actual mount so it is continually trying to twist the mount in load/off-load cycles. As has already been mentioned you can Loctite the nuts and use washers to better distribute the load over the mount. Washers won't prevent a shear failure if the mount is over stressed but will minimize the fatique realized by the offset mount and increased bar rates. In theory, the mount could possibly last forever with the OE sway bar rates (and properly tightened) but with aftermarket bars there will always be the potential for mount failure.

That being said there are solutions available. The OE mount itself is attached with sufficient weld (see Image) to the control arm, it was just made from material that is too thin and there is not enough material surrounding the bolt hole. There is already a welded gusset outboard of the end link mount. Between the end link mount and this gusset you already have 7.5" of weld holding this mount in place, more welding is NOT the solution. Not only is welding not necessary but it will incur unnecessary expense, not to mention alignment afterward if the control arm has to be removed.



Our solution takes advantage of the OE gusset and reinforces the whole area with a much stronger 3/16" laser cut brace that mimics the shape of the OE bracket. It installs under the OE bracket and simply bolts into place with two supplied bolts. The installation is very simple and does not require any drilling or welding, resulting in an economical and bulletproof solution to this problem.




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Old 05-04-2011, 02:23 PM   #338
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Looks good. Another help for sure.

But the weld discussed would be at the top of the tab like in the pic I just drew on. Leaving NO chance at flexing. And making it one peice.

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Old 05-04-2011, 02:34 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PQ View Post
Looks good. Another help for sure.

But the weld discussed would be at the top of the tab like in the pic I just drew on. Leaving NO chance at flexing. And making it one peice.

Attachment 237062
It was mentioned earlier that a brace be fabricated that would extend down through the arm and weld to the base of the control arm. This would require removal of the arm, add significant expense and require an alignment afterword. This is what I was referring to in my post. We do not feel welding is necesarry but overkill is not a problem either. Your suggestion can easily be accomplished on the car if the customer felt it was necessary. We designed an extra 1/8" of material to extend beyond the top of the OE mount which could easily acccomodate a nice TIG weld.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:22 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
It was mentioned earlier that a brace be fabricated that would extend down through the arm and weld to the base of the control arm. This would require removal of the arm, add significant expense and require an alignment afterword. This is what I was referring to in my post. We do not feel welding is necesarry but overkill is not a problem either. Your suggestion can easily be accomplished on the car if the customer felt it was necessary. We designed an extra 1/8" of material to extend beyond the top of the OE mount which could easily acccomodate a nice TIG weld.
No doubt. Your idea is an improvement as is Pfadts. I'd personally use your brakets but I'd weld the top. Just to slam the door shut on any possible problems.

Most likely, your idea will be the end of it for most. I guess I just require a sledge hammer to drive in a thumbtac. LOL
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:13 PM   #341
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why does it seem this turned into a d..k measuring contest?

Lets just see what the vendors have come up with and go with what we think is the best solution for our own car.

Personally I think both so far looks nice and will suffice in preventing the issue at hand.
Now its pedders turn to show what they have/will have as a solution.

PS, without these companies we would be sheet up a creek without a paddle
(I'd ask PQ to doggy paddle for me hehe)
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:36 PM   #342
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I welded them because I can. And as a fabricator it didn't cost me anything to offer this to our customer other than my time. This was also a case where some damage had already been done. Not a situation where this was a proactive addition during a sway bar end link installation.

I don't think anything is wrong with welding but I was addressing specifically your complaint about a brace at the top. That is all I was saying. Like I have also said, a double shear dual tab design would be the best solution but at a significantly higher price that isn't necessary to our customers since these MUCH cheaper options MORE than address the concern by both BMR and Pfadt.

Let's just agree to disagree for now and see what happens.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:39 PM   #343
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:41 PM   #344
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:45 PM   #345
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I kinda like BMR's approach and keeping it straight bolt on so I don't have to go have any welding done... but I'll see what Pedders comes up with before I decide anything

I think PQ needs some Apple pie .. I could use some too... hey is Bonnie home ?
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:50 PM   #346
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Any fix / supplement / addition is better then current OEM and Im happy we have vendors that are willing to offer a variety of solutions.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:17 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
There has been a lot of discussion about what is creating the problem and whose solution is better. This is not a recent issue. Our customer base extends well outside of the Camaro5 community and, although we had to deal with this issue personally on our own car over a year ago, we had seen it first-hand at the drag strip on two separate occasions last summer. Failures have also been reported to our tech lines from time-to-time and most of these were street cars.

There are multiple reasons for these failures. Some are loose end link nuts, some are from binding aftermarket end links, but most are from aftermarket sway bars overloading the mount. With a sway bar mount so close to the fulcrum of the control arm, you are asking that single shear, 1/8" bracket to do a lot. Just to give you an idea of the load required of this mount consider this: Using the stiffest setting of our street sway bar, it takes 1648 pounds of load to twist the bar one inch. This load gets even greater with more suspension movement. On top of that you have to take into account that the load is offset from the actual mount so it is continually trying to twist the mount in load/off-load cycles. As has already been mentioned you can Loctite the nuts and use washers to better distribute the load over the mount. Washers won't prevent a shear failure if the mount is over stressed but will minimize the fatique realized by the offset mount and increased bar rates. In theory, the mount could possibly last forever with the OE sway bar rates (and properly tightened) but with aftermarket bars there will always be the potential for mount failure.

That being said there are solutions available. The OE mount itself is attached with sufficient weld (see Image) to the control arm, it was just made from material that is too thin and there is not enough material surrounding the bolt hole. There is already a welded gusset outboard of the end link mount. Between the end link mount and this gusset you already have 7.5" of weld holding this mount in place, more welding is NOT the solution. Not only is welding not necessary but it will incur unnecessary expense, not to mention alignment afterward if the control arm has to be removed.



Our solution takes advantage of the OE gusset and reinforces the whole area with a much stronger 3/16" laser cut brace that mimics the shape of the OE bracket. It installs under the OE bracket and simply bolts into place with two supplied bolts. The installation is very simple and does not require any drilling or welding, resulting in an economical and bulletproof solution to this problem.




I really like this idea!!!!
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:21 PM   #348
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We don't want to turn a fleet of 5th Gens into test cars, so we'll use PQ's.

PQ,

I need your help again.

I would like to have you re-install the partially failed arm you sent me -- with the new welded in tab installed. We have measured the existing cracks and after 30 days of use we'll want the arm back to see if the welded tab has prevented further deterioration. I'll have the arm ready to ship to you early next week.

I know you do your own work, but I would be more than willing to pay to have the arm installed and removed along with the costs of alignments. Real world on the road testing with PQ -- the one and ONLY C5 member to have failed to rear LCAs!!!!
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:28 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
We don't want to turn a fleet of 5th Gens into test cars, so we'll use PQ's.

PQ,

I need your help again.

I would like to have you re-install the partially failed arm you sent me -- with the new welded in tab installed. We have measured the existing cracks and after 30 days of use we'll want the arm back to see if the welded tab has prevented further deterioration. I'll have the arm ready to ship to you early next week.

I know you do your own work, but I would be more than willing to pay to have the arm installed and removed along with the costs of alignments. Real world on the road testing with PQ -- the one and ONLY C5 member to have failed to rear LCAs!!!!
You bet. Just let me know. I'd have to get it realigned, but no big deal.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:30 PM   #350
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Smokey had a similar philosophy to myself, he didn't think outside the box, he used a bigger box.

One of my favorites was using a fan to drive the alternator so the engine didn't have to, lol (NASCAR didn't like that, lol)
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