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Old 03-22-2011, 05:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningSS View Post
Son of a b!!!

I just went out to look and mine, and look at what I find on the driver's side:

The nut is gone, but bolt undamaged it seems. The passenger side nut was loose, I could turn it with my fingers....

I hated these tierods the moment I installed my sway bars. To torque the nut you have to use a hex key to hold the bolt or the fitting just spins. Which is ok, but apparently I didn't do a good job.

I can't believe I didn't feel the problem, but it is winter around here and I haven't been ripping around much...

This is my fault for not checking the instl after a time, but those lower fittings are still a crap design (but mine look ok for now).

If anybody makes tierods with forked ends let me know I'll be the first in line... Time for a locking nut or some safety wire too.
Actually, I found mine like that twice.

My situation now is on the bottom. But that's common there what you have, like Pete said, locktite, hardwasher and cle3an threads. Torque it down good.
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:14 AM   #52
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Bought new nuts with the nylon locking ring and used red loctite to install them tonight. Reefed them as tight as I could by hand, no impact wrench unfortunately. Fronts were ok. just tightened them a bit. Less than eighth turn.

Will definitely be keeping an eye on these now...
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:00 AM   #53
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Nicely done.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:59 AM   #54
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Not sure how i missed this yesterday, but everyone needs to be sure they are getting the end link nuts tight, and that they re-check them after a day or so of driving.

Pete was 100% right when he said the bracket broke due to a loose end link, you can see the right side link was loose too because of the red dust around it, be sure it's not cracked when you take it off, and follow Pete's advise and you should be good to go.

Anytime you see red dust like that it's form something being loose or something hitting/bottoming out.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:00 AM   #55
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Ok. Good stuff.

We've seen loose end links on here before ON THE sway bar, but I think this is the first lower ones that have shown evidence of too loose. Difference in upper and lower apperenlty is lower will fail much quicker. I think we've learned something solid here in this thread.

I'll pose a slightly different 'questions' now.

Pete had asked me if it had come loose before, and I answered yes. I was mistaken. The TOP had come loose before but never the bottom. Doesn't change the outcome, diagnosis, and reason for the failure, we have that nailed down, but my new questions are a little further into it.

1. The last time I found the end link (on the top part where it attaches to the sway bar) loose, I was able to just push it back on and nut it. So there was not any pressure on it. That's normal right?

2. I went out lastnight (too late to jack it up and take it apart for pics) and went to tighten the other side just to see, and it's pretty damn tight. Considering the nut is still on there and still pretty tight, how do you know they are tight enough? I mean, I lifted my lying body off the ground when I tightened them. So how to know?

3. Kinda a sub-question to question 1, I was only able to put the end links in the rear hole on the sway bar. Just wouldn't go in flush on the center and not even close on the last hole. So, when the car is lowered, is there supposed to be pressure (the car sitting) with weight on the links and bar?
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:17 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by PQ View Post
Ok. Good stuff.

We've seen loose end links on here before ON THE sway bar, but I think this is the first lower ones that have shown evidence of too loose. Difference in upper and lower apparently is lower will fail much quicker. I think we've learned something solid here in this thread.

I'll pose a slightly different 'questions' now.

Pete had asked me if it had come loose before, and I answered yes. I was mistaken. The TOP had come loose before but never the bottom. Doesn't change the outcome, diagnosis, and reason for the failure, we have that nailed down, but my new questions are a little further into it.

1. The last time I found the end link (on the top part where it attaches to the sway bar) loose, I was able to just push it back on and nut it. So there was not any pressure on it. That's normal right? Luck of the draw. The bar just happened to be in a good position for reassembly.

2. I went out lastnight (too late to jack it up and take it apart for pics) and went to tighten the other side just to see, and it's pretty damn tight. Considering the nut is still on there and still pretty tight, how do you know they are tight enough? I mean, I lifted my lying body off the ground when I tightened them. So how to know? Unless you weigh 98 pounds dripping wet with your clothes on I would day it is tight.

3. Kinda a sub-question to question 1, I was only able to put the end links in the rear hole on the sway bar. Just wouldn't go in flush on the center and not even close on the last hole. So, when the car is lowered, is there supposed to be pressure (the car sitting) with weight on the links and bar?
The rear hole, closest to the end of the bar is the softest position. Your should be able to position the OE endlink in any of the adjustment holes. There are times you may need to use a screw jack to align the bar to the endlink ball stud. Disconnect both links when you are installing your new arm. Inspect the old arm to make sure you are good to go. If you are doing this on your back it is more difficult. Use your floor jack and a block of wood to align the bar to the second endlink. Keep in mind, the sway bar rotates in the d-bushes so even though the car is lowered the bar will adjust to the new position. Adjustable length endlinks will help keep the bar parallel to the chassis and also allow you to make the load even on both sides of the bar when corner weighting or allow you to pre-load the bar for advanced setup.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:34 AM   #57
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Unless you weigh 98 pounds dripping wet with your clothes on I would day it is tight.
I did this the first time. I assume the nuts loosened a bit anyway and just didn't keep coming off but enough to do the damage.

If I install my new Pedders end links in the outermost position on the bar, will it cause the ride height to change due to the car sitting on the sway bar/end links?

Mine is now, set in the innermost holes (softest). I changed them after it came off the bar before. Never came off the BAR again. BUT, I want it to be the stiffest. So I'll move them to the outer, it just seemed like it was gonna put too much weight on the links?
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:45 AM   #58
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PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

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Old 03-23-2011, 10:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by PQ View Post
I did this the first time. I assume the nuts loosened a bit anyway and just didn't keep coming off but enough to do the damage.

If I install my new Pedders end links in the outermost position on the bar, will it cause the ride height to change due to the car sitting on the sway bar/end links?

Mine is now, set in the innermost holes (softest). I changed them after it came off the bar before. Never came off the BAR again. BUT, I want it to be the stiffest. So I'll move them to the outer, it just seemed like it was gonna put too much weight on the links?
Sway bars have no impact on ride height. None. Zero. Nada.

Which is the strongest hole? The rear 5th Gen bar mounts with the main bar to the rear of the car and the arms pointing forward. The d-bushes are on the main bar. The further away from the main bar, the d=bush you move the WEAKER the setting. Think See Saw



We'll just look at one half of the See Saw. The triangle or fulcrum is the d bush. You would have the most leverage furthest away from the fulcrum, but you would also have the most motion. The least motion would be closest to thee fulcrum or the d-bush.

Excuse the lengthy explanation, but now we are on the same page. Are you in the softest or hardest hole position?
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

Jason
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:39 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

Jason


Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Sway bars have no impact on ride height. None. Zero. Nada.

Which is the strongest hole? The rear 5th Gen bar mounts with the main bar to the rear of the car and the arms pointing forward. The d-bushes are on the main bar. The further away from the main bar, the d=bush you move the WEAKER the setting. Think See Saw



We'll just look at one half of the See Saw. The triangle or fulcrum is the d bush. You would have the most leverage furthest away from the fulcrum, but you would also have the most motion. The least motion would be closest to thee fulcrum or the d-bush.

Excuse the lengthy explanation, but now we are on the same page. Are you in the softest or hardest hole position?
I am in the hardest positon then. The holes closest to the rear of the car/D-bushes. The were the easiest to connect with anyway. So good. It's where I want to be.
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:01 PM   #62
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Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have snapped 3 of these on my Camaro!

First one was on a bone stock suspension, but running at Sebring which is a pretty rough track. Both of the second times were with stock endlinks.

I check and double check all my bolts before and after every single trackday to ensure everything is tightened properly.

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Old 03-23-2011, 06:25 PM   #63
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Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.
Can you verify one thing? The hole size. It appears from the pictures that there is some sort of bushing in the hole possibly. Your FEM model appears to show a "bolt sized" hole. ( The pictures appear to show only about an 1/8th of material at the edge) If it is a bushing then the hole in your model will make the material at the edge narrower and you'll see higher stress.

I'm curious to know what the OEM material is, and what load you applied to it. Also the load is not strictly axial, did you account for the bolt being twisted in the hole?

This is certainly more than a static load situation too. Fatigue is also an issue. For the final design a pretty hefty Margin of Safety should be applied to the results of a static load only analysis.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:48 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.


If you need a test car, I'm volunteering mine! I already have Pfadt springs, sways, end links, trailing arms, differential and subframe bushings, and the Pfadt control arm/toe link stiffener.

IPS Motorsports has my car right now for the bushings and it's getting a cam and torque converter too. This would be a great time for them to put this reinforcement bracket on my car.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:51 PM   #66
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From the looks of this one it's loose in the hole. Look at the brown area around the nut indicates its not tight.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:58 PM   #67
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I, for one, am glad to see a variety of vendors chime in on this situation. It seems from the Pfadt Demo above that HP may have something to do with this along with driving style and other factors if I am reading correctly.

For those who know, how do you tell if this becomes an issue during driving? Or do you have to check this visually? Is this something that should b checked like a maintenance item like oil changes or rotating tires say 5000 miles, or after a couple of times it should be good?

Thanks
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:08 PM   #68
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Well done Pfadt obviously your new part will be a vast improvement over oem.

But I want to be clear on the fact that lose end links will eventually elongate any bolt hole whether it be an oem product or aftermarket? Obviously, as your data shows oem is more susceptible to failure. But as a rule keeping everything nice and tight will go a long way to prevent failures?

Yes?
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:51 PM   #69
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The sky is NOT falling. What occurred to PQ is not the norm. Please return to your regular scheduled program.

The 5th Gen has been on the road for a couple of years now. We have reports of two owners in this thread with failures. Pedders has known from day one that the lower control arm tab has limitations based on our own in house testing of the OE arm. PQ should already have his brand new OE replacement arm that was left over from our early R & D. (PQ, Please excuse the dust.) It has a mild steel tab as do all 5th Gen arms. We are confident that a hardened washer added to the assembly on the nut side adds sufficient strength. Will it last forever? Probably not, but nothing else on the 5th Gen will either. Replacement arms are available from GM online parts sellers for as low as $28 so this isn't a big ticket item. The problem isn't new. The bigger the bar the greater the potential for damage. It is now and has been in our Solution C product description. Forum rules prohibit a direct link to the catalog, but you can get there through my signature.

There are a number of Pedderised cars doing serious track duty on all OE arms. There are similar cars from other vendors doing the same thing. The failure rate for the rear OE endlink tab is extremely low. The sky is NOT falling. What occurred to PQ is not the norm. Please return to your regular scheduled program.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:51 PM   #70
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But as a rule keeping everything nice and tight will go a long way to prevent failures?

Yes?
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:56 PM   #71
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So then I get some free support brakets?

Call it a ............ discoverers fee.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:01 PM   #72
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So then I get some free support brakets?

Call it a ............ discoverers fee.
Yes. We call them washers and ship them with our endlinks at no charge
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:07 PM   #73
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I have the same setup as PQ and checked mine out tonight.

Fortunately everything was nice and tight (remember those ratchet wrenches I kept talking about Chris? )


However...I did not have any paint missing off the springs from compression...granted I only have about 4k miles since install. Are you jumping your car PQ!?!?!?!
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:26 PM   #74
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I have the same setup as PQ and checked mine out tonight.

Fortunately everything was nice and tight (remember those ratchet wrenches I kept talking about Chris? )


However...I did not have any paint missing off the springs from compression...granted I only have about 4k miles since install. Are you jumping your car PQ!?!?!?!
Only over a small 20 foot ditch. But I'm not airborne for more than a second..........
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:48 AM   #75
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I was under the car the other day and decided to inspect the entire underneath. Well, I found this broken braket peice that is basically the control arm. It is the peice welded onto the control arm that the end links to the sway bar connects to.

Pete, at Pedders, has gracefully offered me one he's had at the shop from early testing. So I didn't have to go buy one but I'm curious if anyone else has had a problem with this piece.

As you can see, the end link tore through the braket. Also pictured is the other side that seems to be good.

There is a split in the other side braket and I don't know if it's a crack or is it supposed to be that way?

Anyway, any feedback would be cool.




The same thing happend to me on my passenger side. Took it to the dealership and they replaced it. At first they tried to blame me and said i had hit something. But then there would have been other damage and they couldnt find any. Drivers beware check em good.
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