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Old 03-23-2011, 11:34 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Unless you weigh 98 pounds dripping wet with your clothes on I would day it is tight.
I did this the first time. I assume the nuts loosened a bit anyway and just didn't keep coming off but enough to do the damage.

If I install my new Pedders end links in the outermost position on the bar, will it cause the ride height to change due to the car sitting on the sway bar/end links?

Mine is now, set in the innermost holes (softest). I changed them after it came off the bar before. Never came off the BAR again. BUT, I want it to be the stiffest. So I'll move them to the outer, it just seemed like it was gonna put too much weight on the links?
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:45 AM   #58
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PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

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Old 03-23-2011, 11:48 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PQ View Post
I did this the first time. I assume the nuts loosened a bit anyway and just didn't keep coming off but enough to do the damage.

If I install my new Pedders end links in the outermost position on the bar, will it cause the ride height to change due to the car sitting on the sway bar/end links?

Mine is now, set in the innermost holes (softest). I changed them after it came off the bar before. Never came off the BAR again. BUT, I want it to be the stiffest. So I'll move them to the outer, it just seemed like it was gonna put too much weight on the links?
Sway bars have no impact on ride height. None. Zero. Nada.

Which is the strongest hole? The rear 5th Gen bar mounts with the main bar to the rear of the car and the arms pointing forward. The d-bushes are on the main bar. The further away from the main bar, the d=bush you move the WEAKER the setting. Think See Saw



We'll just look at one half of the See Saw. The triangle or fulcrum is the d bush. You would have the most leverage furthest away from the fulcrum, but you would also have the most motion. The least motion would be closest to thee fulcrum or the d-bush.

Excuse the lengthy explanation, but now we are on the same page. Are you in the softest or hardest hole position?
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:49 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

Jason
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:39 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
PQ,

The endlinks/sway bar will not affect the ride height at all.

What Pete wrote above is right on.... Dissconnect both endlinks, adjust the bar to line up with the endlinks, then reinstall the endlinks. You might need to jack the bar up to have it meet the endlink on one side.

Trying to make it clear, but not sure if I am helping or not! lol

Jason


Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Sway bars have no impact on ride height. None. Zero. Nada.

Which is the strongest hole? The rear 5th Gen bar mounts with the main bar to the rear of the car and the arms pointing forward. The d-bushes are on the main bar. The further away from the main bar, the d=bush you move the WEAKER the setting. Think See Saw



We'll just look at one half of the See Saw. The triangle or fulcrum is the d bush. You would have the most leverage furthest away from the fulcrum, but you would also have the most motion. The least motion would be closest to thee fulcrum or the d-bush.

Excuse the lengthy explanation, but now we are on the same page. Are you in the softest or hardest hole position?
I am in the hardest positon then. The holes closest to the rear of the car/D-bushes. The were the easiest to connect with anyway. So good. It's where I want to be.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:01 PM   #62
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Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have snapped 3 of these on my Camaro!

First one was on a bone stock suspension, but running at Sebring which is a pretty rough track. Both of the second times were with stock endlinks.

I check and double check all my bolts before and after every single trackday to ensure everything is tightened properly.

/Erik
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:25 PM   #63
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Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.
Can you verify one thing? The hole size. It appears from the pictures that there is some sort of bushing in the hole possibly. Your FEM model appears to show a "bolt sized" hole. ( The pictures appear to show only about an 1/8th of material at the edge) If it is a bushing then the hole in your model will make the material at the edge narrower and you'll see higher stress.

I'm curious to know what the OEM material is, and what load you applied to it. Also the load is not strictly axial, did you account for the bolt being twisted in the hole?

This is certainly more than a static load situation too. Fatigue is also an issue. For the final design a pretty hefty Margin of Safety should be applied to the results of a static load only analysis.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:48 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Hey everyone, there has recently been some discussion about the strength of the stock control arm, specifically where the sway bar mounts. We've seen damage ranging from cracking to full on failures from users and shops alike. Since we have access to OEM Cad files and Finite Element Analysis software, we decided to look into the situation this afternoon.

Finite Element Analysis is the process in which computer models of specific parts are mathematically scrutinized for potential points of failure, the analysis takes into account geometrical design, material thickness and strength. In the graphical representation of this data below, blue indicates areas of relatively low stress, yellow areas of medium stress, and red of potential failure points.



This is the OEM Sway bar attachment point for the 2010 Camaro 5. This piece is welded onto the OEM control arm and the hole is where your sway bar endlink stud is pushed through. As you can see, there are localized areas of high stress directly above the hole... this backs up the physical evidence we've seen lately of endlinks pulling through that mount and rendering that control arm useless.

As per our analysis, we've come to the conclusion that the amount of torque that is placed on the endlink stud will have a negligible effect on the structural integrity of the thin metal that the bracket was designed from. What extra torque will do is possibly keep the nut from backing off of the stud, but will not prevent the failure of the bracket it's self. The real issue is the material used in the OEM bracket, and the thickness of the steel in question.



Here is a prototype design of a reinforcement bracket that we will be testing shortly. The design is incredibly simple and will take about 5 minutes to install. We're considering manufacturing this piece if there is enough interest in the forum. This plate will solve the fundamental issue of the material being too thin, without the need to replace your endlinks because the stud is too short.

If anyone has questions or concerns please let us know. We strongly feel this solution is elegant, simple and will resolve issues surrounding the stock bracket.


If you need a test car, I'm volunteering mine! I already have Pfadt springs, sways, end links, trailing arms, differential and subframe bushings, and the Pfadt control arm/toe link stiffener.

IPS Motorsports has my car right now for the bushings and it's getting a cam and torque converter too. This would be a great time for them to put this reinforcement bracket on my car.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:51 PM   #66
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From the looks of this one it's loose in the hole. Look at the brown area around the nut indicates its not tight.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:58 PM   #67
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I, for one, am glad to see a variety of vendors chime in on this situation. It seems from the Pfadt Demo above that HP may have something to do with this along with driving style and other factors if I am reading correctly.

For those who know, how do you tell if this becomes an issue during driving? Or do you have to check this visually? Is this something that should b checked like a maintenance item like oil changes or rotating tires say 5000 miles, or after a couple of times it should be good?

Thanks
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:08 PM   #68
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Well done Pfadt obviously your new part will be a vast improvement over oem.

But I want to be clear on the fact that lose end links will eventually elongate any bolt hole whether it be an oem product or aftermarket? Obviously, as your data shows oem is more susceptible to failure. But as a rule keeping everything nice and tight will go a long way to prevent failures?

Yes?
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:51 PM   #69
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The sky is NOT falling. What occurred to PQ is not the norm. Please return to your regular scheduled program.

The 5th Gen has been on the road for a couple of years now. We have reports of two owners in this thread with failures. Pedders has known from day one that the lower control arm tab has limitations based on our own in house testing of the OE arm. PQ should already have his brand new OE replacement arm that was left over from our early R & D. (PQ, Please excuse the dust.) It has a mild steel tab as do all 5th Gen arms. We are confident that a hardened washer added to the assembly on the nut side adds sufficient strength. Will it last forever? Probably not, but nothing else on the 5th Gen will either. Replacement arms are available from GM online parts sellers for as low as $28 so this isn't a big ticket item. The problem isn't new. The bigger the bar the greater the potential for damage. It is now and has been in our Solution C product description. Forum rules prohibit a direct link to the catalog, but you can get there through my signature.

There are a number of Pedderised cars doing serious track duty on all OE arms. There are similar cars from other vendors doing the same thing. The failure rate for the rear OE endlink tab is extremely low. The sky is NOT falling. What occurred to PQ is not the norm. Please return to your regular scheduled program.
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:51 PM   #70
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But as a rule keeping everything nice and tight will go a long way to prevent failures?

Yes?
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