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Old 04-01-2011, 09:25 PM   #86
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If the Z28 was N/A,it wouldn't really put on that much weight. Suspension would add a few pounds, you could possibly get some of that extra damper/spring weight back with some light weight IRS links and sways. If the chassis were tied together that would put on weight, then you would have to look into the wheel/tire combo and get that weight back.

the Pedders Camaro did not under go any weight reduction, it weighed 4197lbs and it was close to setting track records. It was using 305's all the way around but running a square setup is ideal for road racing.
Yes, now add a great suspension and a curb weight of 3,800 lbs. ZL1 brakes, forged wheels, light weight race inspired seats, electric PS, and about 475 HP from the LS3, and whala Z28!
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:41 PM   #87
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Yes, now add a great suspension and a curb weight of 3,800 lbs. ZL1 brakes, forged wheels, light weight race inspired seats, electric PS, and about 475 HP from the LS3, and whala Z28!
I know for sure it can be done, the only hiccup, and I can understand this (also correct me if i'm wrong), is GM would have to re-certify the LS3 after modifications were done to to achieve the 475hp. I'm with you on the LS3 option, it is by far the lightest, most compact V8 they have and is capable of those numbers. I would say a transmission swap could do wonders too, not talking dual mass flywheels and twin clutches... Just a different gearset, start out a little steeper and get rid of the 5th gear overdrive.

(example)
1st: 3.48
2nd: 2.33
3rd: 1.59
4th: 1.21
5th: 1.00
6th: 0.61
R: 3:33
Final Drive: 3:73

Fuel economy would bite.. but it would be very responsive and be light years ahead of the SS's TR6060 M10.... per lap...
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:48 PM   #88
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forged wheels
Make those Forgeline 19x9.5's fr/ 19x20 rr. Probably be around 10lbs lighter per wheel not counting the tires. You could feel the entire 3.73 gear ratio with 19's, even better with 18's but they wouldn't look right with a 30-35 profile inside the wheel wells.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:14 PM   #89
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I know for sure it can be done, the only hiccup, and I can understand this (also correct me if i'm wrong), is GM would have to re-certify the LS3 after modifications were done to to achieve the 475hp. I'm with you on the LS3 option, it is by far the lightest, most compact V8 they have and is capable of those numbers. I would say a transmission swap could do wonders too, not talking dual mass flywheels and twin clutches... Just a different gearset, start out a little steeper and get rid of the 5th gear overdrive.

(example)
1st: 3.48
2nd: 2.33
3rd: 1.59
4th: 1.21
5th: 1.00
6th: 0.61
R: 3:33
Final Drive: 3:73

Fuel economy would bite.. but it would be very responsive and be light years ahead of the SS's TR6060 M10.... per lap...
You are correct, a massaged LS3 would require validation...it's not impossible, Just another step. The real question is if it can pass emissions...the testing and validation is not the brick wall...

Then the gearbox gets tricky...because there would A) Have to be an existing unit with those gear ratios, that been approved by GM's powertrain people or B) have to be a newly-designed unit in coordination with Tremec to produce...

If they decide to go ahead and build a Z28 in addition to the looming ZL1...it's not going to be a 4-month parts-bin extravaganza...imo, anyways...
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:55 PM   #90
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You are correct, a massaged LS3 would require validation...it's not impossible, Just another step. The real question is if it can pass emissions...the testing and validation is not the brick wall...

Then the gearbox gets tricky...because there would A) Have to be an existing unit with those gear ratios, that been approved by GM's powertrain people or B) have to be a newly-designed unit in coordination with Tremec to produce...

If they decide to go ahead and build a Z28 in addition to the looming ZL1...it's not going to be a 4-month parts-bin extravaganza...imo, anyways...
I would have to do some research for the emissions, tomorrow I will try to find the breakdown on the LS2 to LS3 and see what needed to be done in that situation. Thats really the best I can do on paper..

and

I don't think Tremec runs anything that steep so it would have to be something new, I will look into it tomorrow when I get up...
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:38 AM   #91
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The emissions are a B-word for the LS engines, the 430hp E-Rod was a 50 state miracle let alone 475hp. I did find a turnkey LS3 Marine engine that is legal and ready to run. It is SAE certified at 450hp but I am wondering if the engine is seeing gains from the shorter exhaust setup. A typical boat engine has short exhaust correct?
Anyway, emissions above 430hp start to get real difficult as i'm seeing it... here's the LS3 Marine engine..
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:47 AM   #92
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The LS3 376/480hp Hot Cam looks ready to run. Anyone know if its 50 states? What about VVT? when is VVT going to be ready for these engines? Is there a problem with the LS3/6060 with misfire detection when using VVT? I know active fuel management presents a problem with the manual. Looks like there would have to be bigger valve reliefs to do so, It also looks like VVT cannot handle hign pressure valve springs that a Hot cam requires. the phaser uses oil to change the cam timing with VVT and would interfere with the valve spring operation. If these changes are made, then the LS3 would be a different engine somewhat.. Maybe an LSZ lol. With VVT, its either go with a low pressure valve spring in which big cam guys would hate or find a happy medium so you don't blow the VVT cam phaser up. Does anybody know how a cam phase limiter operates? High pressure springs or dual springs can work if a cam phase limiter is used but it seems like a cheap fix and could limit VVT range of operation.

Anyway, here's the LS3 376, 480hp about 475tq.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:42 AM   #93
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Now for the transmission, 1st let me say that Tremec's website blows, none of the TR6060's are on there because each specific gearset (MH3, M10, MG9 ect) has been developed for a specific engine (LS9, LS3, LSA ect). The only stats they have are for the the TR6060's predecessor the T56. The 6060 is the same transmission as the T56 (gearbox) but major internal beefing has been done and I believe the tailshafts have been beefed up too. Below, you can see (In Green) the only T56 that carries a decent 1st gear ratio of 3.36 but it still has a 5th gear overdrive (lame). It is kind of heavy for a T56, once in 6060 form it would be over 149lbs. Also, the torque capacity is 350 and that is a maximum torque capacity, NOT a sustained measurement. If we are going to build a new Z28 engine, then we would have to request that Tremec build a new TR6060 and without some kind of fuel saving measure (AFM, VVT) a double overdrive would be needed... even in a production Z28.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:48 AM   #94
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The LS3 as is would be fine, just add SS exhaust manifolds and dry sump.
CTS-V brakes, same weight, better performance.
Pedders coilovers (-15lbs)
High durometer bushings (eF! NVH)
Light wheels (-25 lbs)
Recaro front seats (-25 lbs)
Removable back seat (-15 lbs?)
Mod fuel tank pickup & smaller tank (-7+lbs per gallon)
close ratio gearbox or 4.1+ rear gear ratio
A/C delete... yeah right (-50 lbs)
Radio delete (-10 lbs)
Sound deadening delete and light carpet (-20 lbs?)

...I have more, credit to number3 for some good suggestions
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #95
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..... If we are going to build a new Z28 engine, then we would have to request that Tremec build a new TR6060 and without some kind of fuel saving measure (AFM, VVT) a double overdrive would be needed... even in a production Z28.
True, they have to keep their avg. MPG up across the board. Could get away with a GM approved diff center section thru GMPP
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:49 AM   #96
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:56 AM   #97
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Embed FAIL about pwning ... you get 4



...Is this you? hmmm?
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Old 04-02-2011, 12:46 PM   #98
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Embed FAIL about pwning ... you get 4



...Is this you? hmmm?
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:21 PM   #99
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So what if the Z28 weighed 3800 lbs.?
The Boss is about 20 lbs. more than the GT, and blows it away. It's all about control. Losing weight would be nice, but you can still have great handling just ask Pedders and Pfadt!

Yes a heavy car can handle BUT it is much better to do it with a lighter car. Besides loosing weight makes the need for bigger brakes a nonissue, less spring rate and smaller swatbars which keep the weight in check. Heavier performance cars get bigger heavier brakes (unsprung weight a big bad), bigger swaybars and needed even bigger heavier engine to run just as good, this puts more stress on the car itself. Basicly taking a 4000 Z28 and try to run with a 3600 Boss Mustang will require much more to get it done. Adding weighty parts to make a heavy car work is like screwing for virginity. Light weight is a win win win over a heavy a$$ "performance" car.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:03 PM   #100
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Yes I understand however the car exist as is. So you work with what you given. I believe that 3,800'lbs is doable. Then add all the toys.
Btw cars are gonna stay heavy since the government continues to add to the bulk. And then they want better gas mileage on top of it.
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:45 PM   #101
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John Fitz - Camaro Marketing Mgr:
Ironhead... We continue to work on evolving Camaro. Regarding Z28, all I can say is stay tuned...


[Comment From KentWatkins KentWatkins: ]
No comment on the Z28 then? The Z28 was brought out to battle the Boss Mustang back in the Trans Am days.
John Fitz - Camaro Marketing Mgr:
KentWatkins.. I think it is very interesting to note that history of the Z28 and its comparison to Boss 302...


Oh Yeah! There's gonna be a Z28!!!!!!
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:56 PM   #102
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Yes a heavy car can handle BUT it is much better to do it with a lighter car. Besides loosing weight makes the need for bigger brakes a nonissue, less spring rate and smaller swatbars which keep the weight in check. Heavier performance cars get bigger heavier brakes (unsprung weight a big bad), bigger swaybars and needed even bigger heavier engine to run just as good, this puts more stress on the car itself. Basicly taking a 4000 Z28 and try to run with a 3600 Boss Mustang will require much more to get it done. Adding weighty parts to make a heavy car work is like screwing for virginity. Light weight is a win win win over a heavy a$$ "performance" car.
Look we all wish we can have a lighter car but its not going to happen in a 5th gen. All we can do is minimize the weight added in the end by removing unneeded weight else where. And that idea of always needing a bigger heavier engine is an old misconception.
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