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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 04-07-2011, 10:40 PM   #126
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There is a limit on the Boss 302 as well, there will be a total of 4000 Boss 302's built this year. 750 of those will be Laguna Seca's. It is strange that Ford actually went public with a solid figure, they usually are pretty secret about that.

On another note, some of us "enthusiast" are petitioning Ford to start a Boss job #2 since all of those 2012 Boss Mustang's have been spoken for.

The success of the Boss is only candy for GM. The Boss hype is probably really making them think about the Z28.
Sgt. why did Ford limit the Boss to 4000 units? With Chevy not putting a limit on the ZL1, to me me it would seem to give Chevy a large advantage, especially since all of the Boss's have already been sold? Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:52 PM   #127
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Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
well reduce weight or not for the z28... do you think it will be the direct boss competitor like the zl1 is the gt 500 competitor? ... or will the z28 be the new alpha dog on top of zl1
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:45 AM   #128
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You can save some weight in the exhaust (25lbs), 18 inch wheels (30lbs), Cast aluminum differential (15lbs), driveshaft (15lbs), 16 gallon fuel tank (18lbs), ZR1 brake system (15lbs), racing interior (40lbs)... This would be expensive no doubt, but that's the advantage of using an LS3, that and the weight.
The diff is already aluminum.
The driveshaft is already about as light as it's getting without costing BIG bucks for a few pounds.
ZR1 brakes, WAY TOO expensive. The CTS-V brakes would give the car all it needs to be competitive.


The other ideas are good

... Getting closer to a competitive car without breaking the bank.
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I think the ZL1 is great but I am not into supercharged or turbo cars so I hope the Z28 is a a LS7 and lighter weight then our SS Camaros and more set up like a road racer.
Check out the price of a stand-alone LS7 and get back with me. You'll also need the stouter trans and diff to go with it.... you're gonna end up with a $70,000 car!
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:45 AM   #129
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The diff is already aluminum.
The driveshaft is already about as light as it's getting without costing BIG bucks for a few pounds.
ZR1 brakes, WAY TOO expensive. The CTS-V brakes would give the car all it needs to be competitive.


The other ideas are good

... Getting closer to a competitive car without breaking the bank.
You're alright for a mustang dude



Check out the price of a stand-alone LS7 and get back with me. You'll also need the stouter trans and diff to go with it.... you're gonna end up with a $70,000 car!
The LS7 is right at $14,000 retail & the LS3 is about $8,500 retail. Keep in mind thats retail. So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:48 PM   #130
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Sgt. why did Ford limit the Boss to 4000 units? With Chevy not putting a limit on the ZL1, to me me it would seem to give Chevy a large advantage, especially since all of the Boss's have already been sold?
I'm not sure why Ford put a limit on it. Ford usually keeps initial production numbers of special models quiet which leads me to believe that only the Laguna Seca is capped. I need to look into this a little bit more but, the only official word Ford released on production was that "Every dealer was ensured to receive at least one Boss 302 (there are almost 4000 dealers in the US and Canada), only the top selling dealers would receive a chip for a second Boss 302 (or more) based on their previous Mustang sales. I have seen some dealers being allocated eight (8) Boss 302's such as the one in Dallas. Ford said they planned on building 4000 Boss 302s (just looked it up) as this number is not firm. I would say that if the initial 4000 are spoken for, Job 2 will be rolling out before summer.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:06 PM   #131
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The LS7 is right at $14,000 retail & the LS3 is about $8,500 retail. Keep in mind thats retail. So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
You're not gonna see a LS7 in a Camaro for a 3-4 grand premium.

You also won't see it with LS3's drivetrain... they know better. (think warranty)
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:20 PM   #132
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Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
I love DOHC engines... I see the elimination of parasitic losses in internal combustion engines as the future of performance and in my opinion, so does GM. I don't have a current GM DOHC engine to do this comparison so, I will use the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote. The weight between the two engines are pretty close, the LS3 weighs 418lbs wet, dressed and ready to run. The 5.0 weighs 429lbs the same way, (the 4.6 DOHC weighed 425lbs). That is an 11lb difference and not really a substantial amount. The 5.0 uses an 8 quart oil capacity compared to the LS3's 6 quart. That is almost 4lbs extra in oil (3.75) but extra oil is always a good thing. The extra weight typically comes from the slightly larger head casting and the additional 3 extra cams. The camshafts are much smaller than the standard cam used in the LS3 but either way, its still only 11lbs heavier than the LS3. There are technologies that could reduce a future GM DOHC's weight down to the current LS3's weight. The plasma transfer wire arc process that eliminates the iron cylinder walls saved 8.5lbs in the 5.4 (also a increase in power and MPG).

Both the LS3 and the 5.0 are probably some of the lightest V8's in the history of V8's.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:26 PM   #133
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So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:33 PM   #134
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it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
S/C isn't a good track motor due to power loss from excessive heat.

DOHC= dual overhead cam
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:32 PM   #135
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it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
A supercharged engine speeds up heat soak and then suffers directly from the issue. Heat soak is when the entire engine bay, engine components and fluids become hot. The intake becomes hot and starts to warm the air going into the combustion chamber. Hot air is dense (edit: less dense), therefore, affecting performance. This happens naturally as the engine gets hotter, regardless if it is supercharged or not. As a supercharged engine becomes heat soaked though, its high power output becomes mitigated by heat and begins to compress hot air into the combustion chamber and eventually the cars computer will intervene (more on that in a few). Power losses are relatively small in naturally aspired engines, this is another kind of parasitic loss. As a supercharged V8 becomes heat soaked, the onboard computers will set spark and timing back to protect the motor and avoid misfires and improper detonation. This results in a major horsepower loss, sometimes as much as 40 to 80 horsepower and in extremely humid days, it could be more.

A road course and the cars that run them should take every precaution possible to prevent heat. This would include the installation of a supercharger. Superchargers are fantastic for short races and produce huge power for those races. Cool downs are usually required between races.

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Old 04-08-2011, 02:48 PM   #136
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A supercharged engine speeds up heat soak and then suffers directly from the issue. Heat soak is when the entire engine bay, engine components and fluids become hot. The intake becomes hot and starts to warm the air going into the combustion chamber. Hot air is dense, therefore, affecting performance. This happens naturally as the engine gets hotter, regardless if it is supercharged or not. As a supercharged engine becomes heat soaked though, its high power output becomes mitigated by heat and begins to compress hot air into the combustion chamber and eventually the cars computer will intervene (more on that in a few). Power losses are relatively small in naturally aspired engines, this is another kind of parasitic loss. As a supercharged V8 becomes heat soaked, the onboard computers will set spark and timing back to protect the motor and avoid misfires and improper detonation. This results in a major horsepower loss, sometimes as much as 40 to 80 horsepower and in extremely humid days, it could be more.

A road course and the cars that run them should take every precaution possible to prevent heat. This would include the installation of a supercharger. Superchargers are fantastic for short races and produce huge power for those races. Cool downs are usually required between races.
makes sense... except hot air is less dense as it expands when heated and contracts when cooled :P

anyway, in all of that... why not just add a better intercooler system so that you dont suffer from heat stroke as much with a supercharger?
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:57 PM   #137
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makes sense... except hot air is less dense as it expands when heated and contracts when cooled :P

anyway, in all of that... why not just add a better intercooler system so that you dont suffer from heat stroke as much with a supercharger?
Whoops, sorry about that, Hot air raises.. I forgot the "less" ... Thanks for the correction.. and thanks for reading...
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:14 PM   #138
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Yes less dense so you have a less optimum mixture of fuel/air. Kinda the opposite effect of NOS.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:14 PM   #139
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anyway, in all of that... why not just add a better intercooler system so that you dont suffer from heat stroke as much with a supercharger?
Intercooler's and heat exchangers are great tools to combat heat soak, but there comes a point at which the effects of heat are no longer curable. Those things do help, and prolong the negative effects of heat soak but there is no remedy. We are also trying to keep weight in the nose to a minimum. The lightest superchargers are usually the Prochargers, which manufacturers won't use. I have seen some Procharger systems around 80lbs. The traditional roots type, twin screw and TVS superchargers can add 100-150lbs with all the plumbing, intercooler and heat exchanger.

Superchargers offer superior low end power and a broad and steady power curve up until the peak numbers. But... S/Cer's can further reduce the engines maximum RPMs and maintaining high revolutions and staying in the powerband is very important in road racing. A good example would be the LS3's redline of 6600rpm and the S/C'd LSA's redline of 6200rpm. Even though the LSA is very capable of road duty, its just not ideal or optimal to run that type of setup verses the N/A LS3. Think of power adders like performance enhancing drugs for athletes. Its good short term but long term will eventually exhaust the athlete and affect the overall performance.
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Old 04-09-2011, 06:29 PM   #140
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I love DOHC engines... I see the elimination of parasitic losses in internal combustion engines as the future of performance and in my opinion, so does GM. I don't have a current GM DOHC engine to do this comparison so, I will use the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote. The weight between the two engines are pretty close, the LS3 weighs 418lbs wet, dressed and ready to run. The 5.0 weighs 429lbs the same way, (the 4.6 DOHC weighed 425lbs). That is an 11lb difference and not really a substantial amount. The 5.0 uses an 8 quart oil capacity compared to the LS3's 6 quart. That is almost 4lbs extra in oil (3.75) but extra oil is always a good thing. The extra weight typically comes from the slightly larger head casting and the additional 3 extra cams. The camshafts are much smaller than the standard cam used in the LS3 but either way, its still only 11lbs heavier than the LS3. There are technologies that could reduce a future GM DOHC's weight down to the current LS3's weight. The plasma transfer wire arc process that eliminates the iron cylinder walls saved 8.5lbs in the 5.4 (also a increase in power and MPG).

Both the LS3 and the 5.0 are probably some of the lightest V8's in the history of V8's.
A new DOHC LS3 engine would mean a complete new engine build and re-certification, which is a lengthy process. The new Chevy V-8's will most likely be DI but I am not sure that they will be DOHC. I might be wrong because I did not look it up, but the last Chevy DOHC was a Cosworth design in a much older Corvette ZR1. From what I remember, it was not that great and had durability problems. Thanks for the information, it was interesting to see that the new Coyote engine DOHC was so light. Giving credit where credit is due, Ford seems to have built a really good engine in the new 5.0.
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Old 04-09-2011, 06:52 PM   #141
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A new DOHC LS3 engine would mean a complete new engine build and re-certification, which is a lengthy process. The new Chevy V-8's will most likely be DI but I am not sure that they will be DOHC. I might be wrong because I did not look it up, but the last Chevy DOHC was a Cosworth design in a much older Corvette ZR1. From what I remember, it was not that great and had durability problems. Thanks for the information, it was interesting to see that the new Coyote engine DOHC was so light. Giving credit where credit is due, Ford seems to have built a really good engine in the new 5.0.
Yeah, I know... But.... GM has done a hybrid OHV/DOHC block before. In the 90's. It was a 3.6 V6 called the LQ1. It was a 60 degree V6 and was changed into a DOHC in 1991.
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:34 PM   #142
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Intercooler's and heat exchangers are great tools to combat heat soak, but there comes a point at which the effects of heat are no longer curable. Those things do help, and prolong the negative effects of heat soak but there is no remedy. We are also trying to keep weight in the nose to a minimum. The lightest superchargers are usually the Prochargers, which manufacturers won't use. I have seen some Procharger systems around 80lbs. The traditional roots type, twin screw and TVS superchargers can add 100-150lbs with all the plumbing, intercooler and heat exchanger.

Superchargers offer superior low end power and a broad and steady power curve up until the peak numbers. But... S/Cer's can further reduce the engines maximum RPMs and maintaining high revolutions and staying in the powerband is very important in road racing. A good example would be the LS3's redline of 6600rpm and the S/C'd LSA's redline of 6200rpm. Even though the LSA is very capable of road duty, its just not ideal or optimal to run that type of setup verses the N/A LS3. Think of power adders like performance enhancing drugs for athletes. Its good short term but long term will eventually exhaust the athlete and affect the overall performance.
The ZR1 seems to do pretty good though.
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:53 PM   #143
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Yeah, I know... But.... GM has done a hybrid OHV/DOHC block before. In the 90's. It was a 3.6 V6 called the LQ1. It was a 60 degree V6 and was changed into a DOHC in 1991.
I think that the pictures you found of the 5.5 race engine will be like you said the next Z28 engine.
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Old 04-10-2011, 02:37 AM   #144
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I think that the pictures you found of the 5.5 race engine will be like you said the next Z28 engine.
I hope so...
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:22 AM   #145
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A new DOHC LS3 engine would mean a complete new engine build and re-certification, which is a lengthy process. The new Chevy V-8's will most likely be DI but I am not sure that they will be DOHC. I might be wrong because I did not look it up, but the last Chevy DOHC was a Cosworth design in a much older Corvette ZR1. From what I remember, it was not that great and had durability problems. Thanks for the information, it was interesting to see that the new Coyote engine DOHC was so light. Giving credit where credit is due, Ford seems to have built a really good engine in the new 5.0.
It was a Lotus enginnered engine built by mercury marine and called the LT5. It did not have any durability issues. You can pull some huge HP numbers from that motor. What killed the LT5 was the cost. At 405HP is cost double what a 300HP LT1 cost to manufacture. Plus with the LS engine on the horizon it didn't make sense to continue DOHC into the C5 Corvette. GM is dedicated to OHV, I don't see them going to OHC anytime soon.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:56 AM   #146
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The ZR1 seems to do pretty good though.
That is true, the dual brick TVS 2300 is quite an intercooler/supercharger system. If I were to use a Corvette for pro road racing, I would use the Z06.

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Old 04-12-2011, 04:28 PM   #147
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The more and more I think about it the more and more I see why we dont have a Z28 yet and why it most likely wont show up until the next generation.

The is just no engine for it. Cant use the LS7 due to the cost of it plain and simple. The LS7 with less HP then the LSA would still make a Z28 cost as much as a ZL1, and I guess I dont see GM making a Z28 with an LS3.

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Old 04-12-2011, 04:59 PM   #148
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It's more about finesse than brutish power. Trust me its gotta have balls, but being able to track like the Boss (surely better) is and should be what the Z28 is all about.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:36 PM   #149
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A supercharged engine speeds up heat soak and then suffers directly from the issue. Heat soak is when the entire engine bay, engine components and fluids become hot. The intake becomes hot and starts to warm the air going into the combustion chamber. Hot air is dense (edit: less dense), therefore, affecting performance. This happens naturally as the engine gets hotter, regardless if it is supercharged or not. As a supercharged engine becomes heat soaked though, its high power output becomes mitigated by heat and begins to compress hot air into the combustion chamber and eventually the cars computer will intervene (more on that in a few). Power losses are relatively small in naturally aspired engines, this is another kind of parasitic loss. As a supercharged V8 becomes heat soaked, the onboard computers will set spark and timing back to protect the motor and avoid misfires and improper detonation. This results in a major horsepower loss, sometimes as much as 40 to 80 horsepower and in extremely humid days, it could be more.

A road course and the cars that run them should take every precaution possible to prevent heat. This would include the installation of a supercharger. Superchargers are fantastic for short races and produce huge power for those races. Cool downs are usually required between races.
Okay, so how about small twin turbos ala the BMW N54? Turbos certainly make great racing FI sources. And while we are at it why not DOHC 4 VPC, twin Turbos, and direct injection? And then throw in some exotic camistry?

Sadly I think Chevy will disappoint us. Only the existence of the red hot Coyote gives me hope. Already GM is starting with one set of rules for all GM cars. Again. Haven't they learned anything from their past? Remind me not to buy any stock of the "new" GM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:41 AM   #150
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Okay, so how about small twin turbos ala the BMW N54? Turbos certainly make great racing FI sources. And while we are at it why not DOHC 4 VPC, twin Turbos, and direct injection? And then throw in some exotic camistry? .
Twin Turbo's are great for road racing, although that decision would receive a lot of flak from the Z28 hopefuls. Turbo's run just as hot as superchargers if not hotter than. Turbo's are mounted to the exhaust which is very hot in itself, large intercoolers are required to cool the unit so that it is not forcing hot air into the combustion chambers. The reason road racers love turbo's? two things, efficiency and high revs. Until advances with the "Twin Screw" and eventually the Roots type "Twin Vortices Series" superchargers, efficiency was a joke. Superchargers require horsepower to produce horsepower and while the argument remains of "only the final result matters"(Which is true). The turbo enthusiast are applying more boost and placing less strain on the engine itself. Some superchargers can rob almost 20% of the engines natural horsepower. Then why do it? Because drag racers love low end power and superchargers are usually cheaper, less complicated and sometimes weigh less (Prochargers).

High Engine Revolutions are another reason road racers love the turbo. Turbo's are not belt driven therefore do not have any physical relationship with the crankshaft. This allows the turbo and engine to spin freely and independently where the supercharger's pulley and friction created by the rotors/screws put more strain on the engine and limiting the RPM's in the long run. That sounds good for drag racing right? It can be, but.. turbo's require some time to spool and usually create their power on the top end (even torque). Turbo's usually see more torque gains than superchargers but like I said, those gains usually peak higher in the power band and drag racers need to hook.
Quote:
Sadly I think Chevy will disappoint us. Only the existence of the red hot Coyote gives me hope. Already GM is starting with one set of rules for all GM cars. Again. Haven't they learned anything from their past? Remind me not to buy any stock of the "new" GM
That maybe so but I think there is a lot to uncover in the Gen V engine and advances can be made naturally. Not to say forced induction is bad but maximizing the engine in its natural state leaves another card to be played later on. There will be a new combustion chamber layout, direct injection and cam system coming. I have a thread on this new Gen V engine and possibly a 5th Gen Z28. Check it out and throw your two cents in there:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140036

Last edited by thePill; 04-14-2011 at 03:00 AM.
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