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Old 04-14-2011, 10:11 AM   #151
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FE4 package

This might lead to something important
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:57 AM   #152
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FE4 package

This might lead to something important
It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
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Elements of the FE4 package include:

  • Retuned front and rear dampers
  • New solid front (23 mm) and rear (24 mm) stabilizer bars
  • Twenty-inch aluminum wheels and P245/45R20 front/P275/40R20 rear tires (SS).

More than just new components, the new FE4 performance suspension incorporates learning from the ongoing development of the high-performance Camaro ZL1. In particular, the suspension geometry has been adjusted, including reshaped stabilizer bars that are repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. This results in more effective body control and more precise response in performance driving.
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain (Edit: The shock mounts will not be moved outward, the rear stabilizer bar is repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. Sorry for that) . I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.

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Old 04-14-2011, 12:04 PM   #153
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It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain. I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.
personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:36 PM   #154
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personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars
Its hard to eliminate body roll when you will have 4100+lbs and maintain ride comfort. The SS and in with the Z28, 3800lbs can be manageable. Wheel hop can be an attribute of unsprung weight but can be remedied with some control arms and other suspension upgrades. The Z28 will be all about high revolutions, balance, endurance, flat cornering and nimble handling at the expense of regular people comforts. I would expect a full sways, stiff dampers, lowering springs and maybe an answer to the giant "L' link the SS has. The IRS system would need some looking into..
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:13 PM   #155
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I would expect a full sways, stiff dampers, lowering springs and maybe an answer to the giant "L' link the SS has. The IRS system would need some looking into..
what do you mean by "L" link? and I figure teh ZL-1 will be a much smoother and crisper (meaning less body roll) ride than the SS from the factory.. so with that MRC system and me adding on sway bars, I think I can have similar handling to something like a nissan 370 z?
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:47 PM   #156
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It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain (Edit: The shock mounts will not be moved outward, the rear stabilizer bar is repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. Sorry for that) . I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.
Any weight added will be very low to the ground, this will be a benefit. Plus the weight should be minimal.
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:49 PM   #157
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personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars
the new suspension, rearend, and axles should definately help quite a bit.
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Old 04-14-2011, 05:52 PM   #158
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Any weight added will be very low to the ground, this will be a benefit. Plus the weight should be minimal.
Oh yeah, I wasn't saying that those upgrades would put the FE4 Camaro into another weight class, just not to expect the same weight gain the 4SS will take on for the Z28. I can see the 4SS gaining about the same weight as the 2010 GT Track Pack did or maybe even the Boss 302 itself. The Z28 would have to "give a penny, take a penny" as weight is concerned. The Boss had some heavy suspension upgrades applied to the car and quite a few as well. GM could possibly learn something here and stay completely flush with the SS curb weight if they play it right.

Advantage here would be that every Camaro comes with god awful 20" wheels. Just reducing the standard wheel size to a 19" could be a nice chunk of weight. In fact, lightweight wheels would be way more of an advantage for the Z28 than the Boss 302 just because of the unsprung weight between the two. As long as GM stays close to the SS's weight, they wouldn't need to opt for the big brake kits that the ZL1 and the CTS-V uses. Those brakes are just extra mass, even heavier than the 14" SS rotors regardless of the two-piece nomenclature. Having the little extra weight in the SS will be a decent trade off and as you said, that weight comes close to the center of gravity. The Z28 should already have a build plan that defeats that weight gain.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:14 PM   #159
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personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars
All I can say is you might just want to wait and see on that one. Just sayin'..............that's all...............unless 0 body roll is what you are after.

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Its hard to eliminate body roll when you will have 4100+lbs and maintain ride comfort. The SS and in with the Z28, 3800lbs can be manageable. Wheel hop can be an attribute of unsprung weight but can be remedied with some control arms and other suspension upgrades. The Z28 will be all about high revolutions, balance, endurance, flat cornering and nimble handling at the expense of regular people comforts. I would expect a full sways, stiff dampers, lowering springs and maybe an answer to the giant "L' link the SS has. The IRS system would need some looking into..
You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:52 PM   #160
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All I can say is you might just want to wait and see on that one. Just sayin'..............that's all...............unless 0 body roll is what you are after.



You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.
Why is it that every time you post I hurry to read it?

I guess it's the hope the word will soon be out.

Please don't put the ZL1 hood on the new Z/28.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:06 PM   #161
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You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.
I think I say this almost everytime I reply to you. We both know that the topic of this very thread is on the table right now. The questions are just the five "W's" and the "H"

Team Camaro's slogan of "Keep the Faith" is appropriate... But you can keep your faith... Now its time for action. So, with the help of some of the more engineering inclined Camaro enthusiast, we are bench engineering the Z28, a little piece at a time. I know you can't answer this but... since Ford Racing engineered/released the Boss 302 and Team Camaro decided to go with ZL1 instead... isn't the team happy that Ford made that move that shifted the nameplates? In my opinion, Ford's move saved you guys from mistakenly naming the superchargered LSA equipped ZL1. In my opinion, its time to build the Z28.... Is team Camaro lookiing over all our Z28 threads?(you can answer that one at least) We are putting some good stuff in there and it would be nice to have a little feedback from the development guys. Reality check at least every once in a while. Or are you guys taking every word I type and adding it into your shell downstairs?
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:10 PM   #162
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......continued

Hey Number 3, Stevenson Motorsports and Mitchum Motorsports need a hand over there in Grand Am. Turner, Rum Bum and Fall-line are trying to push us out. Give them guys some factory support man.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:28 PM   #163
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The Z-28 should be a little more cost effective. The ZL1 is expected to be $60k. Nice ride, I would love one.... But that's a chunk of change!

Give us track handling, power and a reasonable price! Oh, yeah... and that sexy Camaro styling.
Yeah! What he said!
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:45 PM   #164
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Excellent points The Pill.

It has been too long, z28 potential buyers deserve some info on the z28 like WHEN and WHAT PERFORMANCE TO EXPECT. They are going to lose us. Ford comes out with model after model but we get one future car and one we have no ideal.


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I think I say this almost everytime I reply to you. We both know that the topic of this very thread is on the table right now. The questions are just the five "W's" and the "H"

Team Camaro's slogan of "Keep the Faith" is appropriate... But you can keep your faith... Now its time for action. So, with the help of some of the more engineering inclined Camaro enthusiast, we are bench engineering the Z28, a little piece at a time. I know you can't answer this but... since Ford Racing engineered/released the Boss 302 and Team Camaro decided to go with ZL1 instead... isn't the team happy that Ford made that move that shifted the nameplates? In my opinion, Ford's move saved you guys from mistakenly naming the superchargered LSA equipped ZL1. In my opinion, its time to build the Z28.... Is team Camaro lookiing over all our Z28 threads?(you can answer that one at least) We are putting some good stuff in there and it would be nice to have a little feedback from the development guys. Reality check at least every once in a while. Or are you guys taking every word I type and adding it into your shell downstairs?
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:48 PM   #165
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The Pill, are getting the zl1 or are you holding out for a potential z28.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:04 AM   #166
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The Pill, are getting the zl1 or are you holding out for a potential z28.
Good question, as long as I have been a member of this site, nobody has ever asked me that. The real life answer is neither bud, I'm on the other side, see my signature pic of the Black 5.0 (Ernie). If I was in the market for a Camaro I would have to sit back and really consider what particular kind of racing I was going to do with the car. I had purchased my 5.0 with the intentions on tracking the car over here in Germany, although I still might play around some, my current physical condition would make it difficult to road race for an extended period of time. I will still run Hockenheim and Nurburgring for the hell of it but I will not build the car for road racing or autocross. I would love to see the Z28 come to production to meet the Boss 302 head on in Grand Am because I am still a huge fan of road racing. I did some road racing about 13-14 years ago and attempted to run again before I came into the military but a few technicalities put me out. I will always lean to the race ready aspect of any production car and cars like the hopefully upcoming Z28 would be something that I would be interested in BIG TIME.

The Z28 will hopefully eliminate some of the gadgets that today's automobile enthusiast deem necessary to complete any car.. such as NAV, Onstar, leather/heated/power seats, telescopic steering wheel ect ect.. That is the main attraction for me in the Z28, it cuts out the BS and is ready for duty and the price should be very right. In my condition though, I have elected to return to drag racing as I had more experience in this since I was younger. Drag racing means power, lots of power.. and only one Camaro that I know of has lots of that.. and that is the ZL1. The ZL1 looks like it will have far too many gadgets for me though. Those gadgets contribute to the single most thing that turns me off in that particular car but there is nothing I can do about that. The ZL1 is the total package, the Z28 would be the total opposite and that would put me in a buyers dilemma. Power and options at a high dollar amount or endurance and track ability at a reasonable cost.

I would want to drag race, but the ZL1 just comes with too many extras for that... and the Z28 will likely be the crowning achievement of the 5th Gen Camaro.. it would be hard to modify the track star design that will soon be coming from Team Camaro. When it all is said and done, I would take the $10k I save from buying the base SS instead of the Z28 and buy and build the the SS to my exact specifications for drag racing. I would go directly for a left over, bottom of the barrel 2010 Camaro 2SS hopefully with rebates. I looked at a black 2010 2SS in 2009 and didn't bite, there were some things I didn't like about the way the car looked initially, the interior made me feel sunk in like the my 3rd Gens (3 Camaros and 2 plum purple Firebirds.. don't ask) and even the '97 vert I had. They all sat low and back and the hoods always seemed bigger than they actually were. I was very close to buying one but the more time I spent around the car, the novelty wore off and I started nit picking, the car was $41k if I remember correctly. I seen another one in Japan and they were almost twice as much as the one in Hawaii. Close buy no cigar....................

Edit: Whoa, that was waaay too long, sorry man..

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Old 04-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #167
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I'm not sure why Ford put a limit on it. Ford usually keeps initial production numbers of special models quiet which leads me to believe that only the Laguna Seca is capped. I need to look into this a little bit more but, the only official word Ford released on production was that "Every dealer was ensured to receive at least one Boss 302 (there are almost 4000 dealers in the US and Canada), only the top selling dealers would receive a chip for a second Boss 302 (or more) based on their previous Mustang sales. I have seen some dealers being allocated eight (8) Boss 302's such as the one in Dallas. Ford said they planned on building 4000 Boss 302s (just looked it up) as this number is not firm. I would say that if the initial 4000 are spoken for, Job 2 will be rolling out before summer.
A few corrections.

All Boss 302's for 2012 are allocated. They are spread out over 4 quarters. Volume dealers who sell alot of Mustangs are guaranteed allocation based on sales. Smaller dealers (read rural dealerships, of which there are alot) enter a lottery system to "win" allocation.

For instance, my local Ford store won allocation for a 2nd quarter Boss 302. Their other rural store won allocation for a 4th quarter Laguna Seca. I helped them sell their Laguna Seca, so I will be ordering a 2013 Boss 302 at under MSRP.

What we know about the 2013 Boss 302, so far is, 1970 style stripes and the addition of a few colors, along with the loss of a few colors. I will be ordering a Grabber Blue 2013.

As for a Z/28 based on the existing Gen 5. Yes, owners can easily remove weight from their cars. Manufacturers cannot do so, easily. They have warranties they have to deal with. They have pricepoints they have to meet. They have profitability targets that have to happen. You start doing too much to the car, you make too many unique pieces, you drive up the cost of the car.

I think the most you could see coming off of the SS, for a Z/28, would be 100lbs. Add weight back in, for additional suspension to create this track car, and do so reliably. Thus, you would see the actual weight for the car being very close to that of the standard SS. Look no further, than the Boss to see how this works. This is a limitation born to the fact that the car is built on a large sedan platform.

You want to raise the power a bunch?? Expect the car to gain weight accordingly. You are dealing with a 6.2L V8. It has alot more torque, down low, than the high revving 5.0 in the Ford. A strong hit of torque, off idle, is alot harder on drivetrain components, than high rpm horsepower. While the 6.2L revs decently for a large pushrod engine, by basic design, it does not lend itself well to very high rpm power.

Basically, it is just very hard for GM to turn the Camaro into the Z/28 you all want, without making it a price none of you will pay.

Oh, as to why Ford is limiting Boss302 production, I have no idea. However, I believe they truly are paying homage to the original here. They waited a long time to do this, until they had a worthy engine. All development was done in a small "skunk works" type of way (Ford is actually very good at this low production, profitable niche products), by major enthusiasts. This isn't to say that there won't be another Boss sometime in the future. However, I truly think that Ford will wait until they feel they have something different, and worthy, to do it again.

What I worry about it, by the time the Z/28 gets out here............. the Boss will be gone.

BTW, Hi guys. Gloria here.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:40 PM   #168
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It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain (Edit: The shock mounts will not be moved outward, the rear stabilizer bar is repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. Sorry for that) . I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.
The added weight is a concern but the idea of that package shows GM is looking at the road course side of things and means a Z28 is for sure being talked about heavily inside Team Camaro.

I am also with on the fact that it would be nice for Team Camaro to drop in every once and awhile to keep our ideas on the car realistic, we know they cant confirm the car and understand that but they could give us more insight into the thought process of engineering a factory average Joe track car.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:06 PM   #169
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A few corrections.

All Boss 302's for 2012 are allocated. They are spread out over 4 quarters. Volume dealers who sell alot of Mustangs are guaranteed allocation based on sales. Smaller dealers (read rural dealerships, of which there are alot) enter a lottery system to "win" allocation.

For instance, my local Ford store won allocation for a 2nd quarter Boss 302. Their other rural store won allocation for a 4th quarter Laguna Seca. I helped them sell their Laguna Seca, so I will be ordering a 2013 Boss 302 at under MSRP.

What we know about the 2013 Boss 302, so far is, 1970 style stripes and the addition of a few colors, along with the loss of a few colors. I will be ordering a Grabber Blue 2013.
I guess that makes some sense, I know that initially, production was suppose to end in December. With the "Share of a Nation" plan allocating 3000 right off the bat and an additional 794 going out now, that doesn't leave very many Boss 302s to build throughout the year and into December though. There is also a "Lottery" for those dealers that couldn't participate in the SoN allocation and I don't think 206 Boss 302s will be enough..... unless 4000 was too small of a figure. This definitely makes me think there are way over 4000 or there will be a Job 2 this summer. Anyway, thanks for the info, even though some may think this doesn't pertain to the Z28, it is good to know how many Z28s can/will be built.... Now, back to the Z28.

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Old 04-15-2011, 05:15 PM   #170
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Yes I would in the future, especially if there was a vert option when my new 2011 becomes 5 or 10 years old. Starting development now there may be a Z/28 car by then, hopefully sooner.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:53 PM   #171
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what do you mean by "L" link? and I figure teh ZL-1 will be a much smoother and crisper (meaning less body roll) ride than the SS from the factory.. so with that MRC system and me adding on sway bars, I think I can have similar handling to something like a nissan 370 z?
Sorry man, I skipped over your post. The "L" link is the completely redesigned large link in the Camaro's 4.5 multi-link. This redesign makes it considerably different than the Pontiac G8's multi-link IRS that which it was adopted (mutated) from. The Z28 will not require F55s or any new generation MRC. It think all it would need is a track adjustable Z51 package, a lightweight L-link, and chassis bracing "(V" braces). I know there will be some weight involved but we can get that back in wheels and interior.

I'd rather not talk about the ZL1 here but I agree that the ZL1s MRC will smooth out the ride. I do not think that MRC will eliminate body roll completely but the ZL1 will "handle the road unlike any other vehicle with it's curb weight".

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Old 04-15-2011, 08:30 PM   #172
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Sorry man, I skipped over your post. The "L" link is the completely redesigned large link in the Camaro's 4.5 multi-link.
I still dont get it.. large link for what? ... what multi link?
And whats the F55? ... sry but im a noob in this topic
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:59 PM   #173
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I still dont get it.. large link for what? ... what multi link?
And whats the F55? ... sry but im a noob in this topic
Multi-link Independent Rear Suspension that the 5th Gen Camaro uses. Multi-link is just a fancy way of saying 4 link IRS. Each IRS system has "links" that are connected to the rear wheels. A typical dune buggy would have a double wish bone type suspension IRS or a F1 would have usually 6 different links. Every IRS is different, kind of like a snow flake...
Here is a picture of a simple IRS system:



This is a very simple IRS system. You see the half-shaft, the lower "A" arm and the coil-over. Manufacturers could call this a 3 link. The halfshaft is 1, the farthest "A" arm is 2 (hard to see in the picture) and the nearest "A" arm bar is 3. Some manufacturers could call it a 2 link the halfshaft being 1 and the entire "A" arm being 2. Some could not count the halfshaft as a link and just call it 1 link IRS or something cool like... "Wishbone". Double Wishbone is typically your front independent suspension or the old Mac setup like we are use to.

I will see if I can dig up an old 5th Gen comparison to the G8. It will tell you all about the 5th Gens IRS. I have to send it too you privately.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Rocky918 View Post
I still dont get it.. large link for what? ... what multi link?
And whats the F55? ... sry but im a noob in this topic
F55 was an option for the 1st gen magnetic ride control that was offered in the Corvette. The other performance option was the Z51 which was the traditional set up Z06 guys opted for in the Z06 when the MRC started to be an offering in that model.

google "F55 vs Z51" Read any thread I guess.. You will see that most Z06 guys don't like it, most ZR1 guys do... Most Z06 guys don't like ZR1 guys and ZR1 guys don't like the Z06 guys...
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:32 PM   #175
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I do hope the Z goes into production.
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